Does the study of religion and philosophy contradict each other?

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thanks. i am glad that people who know something about philosophy were able to comment on my question.
i started a philosophy class years ago, but i never completed the course.
coming from the anglican communion and the episcopal church before i joined the RCC, it makes me wonder if possibly seminarians studying philosophy did not lead to the lax interpretation of scripture in the Bible. anglicanism prides itself on the 3 legged stool of scripture, tradition and reason. they never really taught that it was important to take the Bible literally. in fact, that is how i grew up, not really taking the Bible seriously. that is why i don’t have a strong foundation in my faith.
if i were to study philosophy, i think my brain would have way too many questions that i wouldn’t have answers for and lead to a lot of confusion.
but that’s me.

it is really interesting reading everyone’s comments. especially from people who are knowledgable of philosophy and the current christian philosophers.
 
Another important point that should be made is that not all philosophy is the same. There is good philosophy and bad philosophy. I would really recommend that you don’t avoid philosophy altogether. Just stay away from the bad philosophy. 🙂

That’s why I can’t recommend Peter Kreeft highly enough. He writes in a way that is very easy for the beginner to understand. Of course, the great Christian philosophers (like Augustine and Aquinas) or even the great Greek philosophers (Plato and Aristotle) are really great to read, but Kreeft is so much easier to understand! 🙂 (On a personal note, it is the writings of Peter Kreeft that really awakened my desire to go deeper in my faith and really answered all the questions that had been swimming through my head during high school and college).

The situation you describe of lax scripture scholarship is the result of bad philosophy that began in the late 18th century. Much of it originated with Descartes (who is considered the father of modern philosophy). Descartes famous phrase “I think, therefore I am” really turned traditional philosophy on its head. Instead of beginning with what is outside of ourselves (i.e. God), he turned things inward. This led to philosophy that would only accept what was observable by the senses, which led to much of the skepticism we have with us to this day (which, unfortunately, infiltrated much of the mainstream biblical scholarship). Of course, this is a great over-simplification, but you get the idea.
 
that was to be my next question after reading your post. how do i know which is the bad philosophy and which is the good. i do remember that quote from Descarte “I think, therefore I am”.

of course, i have heard of Plato and Aristotle. i think i had to read something of theirs in a world literature class i took in college.

so you are saying, maybe i should read only Catholic or current Christian philosophers and avoid modern philosophers from the 18th century on?
 
deborahaz said:
that was to be my next question after reading your post. how do i know which is the bad philosophy and which is the good. i do remember that quote from Descarte “I think, therefore I am”.

of course, i have heard of Plato and Aristotle. i think i had to read something of theirs in a world literature class i took in college.

so you are saying, maybe i should read only Catholic or current Christian philosophers and avoid modern philosophers from the 18th century on?
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Since you are just starting out, as a general rule of thumb, that’s not far off the mark. That being said, there is something to be learned from every philosopher, no matter how bad. But when you’re just starting out, it can be hard to tell the difference. Many of the “big name” modern philosophers are problematic (Nietzsche, Hegel, Sartre, Marx, Machiavelli, Darwin, etc.), but there are some great Christian philosophers of the same time period (Paschal, Cardinal Newman, Kierkegaard, Chesterton, De Lubac, Mounier, etc.). Likewise, even though many of the ancient philosophers are pretty good, there are some of the ancient philosophers (Epicurus, for example) that are not so good.

Again, that’s why I like Kreeft. 🙂 In reading his books on philosophy and checking the footnotes, I felt like I got a good handle on which philosophers were good and which were not (and what the problems were with those philosophers). Of course, even some of the good one make some errors, and even some of the bad ones will say something true.

Think of it this way: As a practicing, believing Catholic, we believe that the Catholic Church is who she says She is, and that Christ is God who came to free us from sin. If someone’s philosophy doesn’t lead them to that, you know they’ve made a mistake somewhere along the line. It’s just a question of where. 😉 And the further away they go, the more mistakes they’ve probably made.
 
thanks Joe. from your posts, it sounds like you have studied philosophy before then. you are very knowledgable. i wonder how the modern philosophers got so far off track.

i am a new Catholic. i was only confirmed 7-15-08. i was raised in the episcopal church and led a secular life for 30-35 years before i began questioning what the Catholic church was about and the differences between Episcopal and Catholic. i attended a few protestant churches with friends, but after a month or so grew tired of them. i really like studying about the early church fathers. i did not give up my membership in the episcopal church before i joined the RCC. obviously, the Eucharist means a lot to me.
i would like to read Thomas Aquinas and Theresa de Avila and some of the Doctors of the Church. i minored in religion in college, but it was not confined to Christianity. we studied all of the major world relgions. that probably is where my confusion began wondering why Christianity thought they were the “right” religion. i think i became sort of an intellectual snob thinking that i was so smart, i was smarter than God. God definitely taught me a lesson on that!!! i left church at 18 when i went away to college. i am 56 now and my journey to the Catholic church took 10-12 years.
that is why i see religion and philosophy contradicting one another, but i didn’t realize there are many different types of philosophy.
thanks for your wise (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
deborahaz said:
thanks Joe. from your posts, it sounds like you have studied philosophy before then. you are very knowledgable. i wonder how the modern philosophers got so far off track.
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Nah, I’m just good at sounding smarter than I really am. 😉 I’ve taken maybe half a dozen philosophy courses in my study of theology, but I always find that the more I learn, the less I know! I have not read nearly as much as I would like to.

As the father of modern philosophy, much of it goes back to Descartes. I find it interesting that Descartes came on the scene in the wake of the Protestant Reformation. I think a good doctoral dissertation topic would be to examine the link between the Reformation and the shift in philosophy. But that’s a whole different topic altogether! 🙂
deborahaz said:
i am a new Catholic. i was only confirmed 7-15-08. i was raised in the episcopal church and led a secular life for 30-35 years before i began questioning what the Catholic church was about and the differences between Episcopal and Catholic. i attended a few protestant churches with friends, but after a month or so grew tired of them. i really like studying about the early church fathers. i did not give up my membership in the episcopal church before i joined the RCC. obviously, the Eucharist means a lot to me.
i would like to read Thomas Aquinas and Theresa de Avila and some of the Doctors of the Church. i minored in religion in college, but it was not confined to Christianity. we studied all of the major world relgions. that probably is where my confusion began wondering why Christianity thought they were the “right” religion. i think i became sort of an intellectual snob thinking that i was so smart, i was smarter than God. God definitely taught me a lesson on that!!! i left church at 18 when i went away to college. i am 56 now and my journey to the Catholic church took 10-12 years.
that is why i see religion and philosophy contradicting one another, but i didn’t realize there are many different types of philosophy.
thanks for your wise (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Welcome home! You really are a recent convert, then! College is certainly an easy place to lose your faith, particularly in a religious studies department. As Peter Kreeft often quotes from Ronald Knox: “the study of comparative religions is the best way to become comparatively religious.” 😉 I have a Catholic friend who majored in religious studies at a public university and she was the only one in her department that actually practiced any religion!

One of the big problems is that the philosophy that rules the day at most universities is not Christian philosophy. That’s how you get into situations like having the head of the philosophy department at Princeton believing that it is morally acceptable to kill your child up to two years after birth (but then curiously believing that it is immoral to kill animals for food or to use air-conditioning in your car). It can be very frightening!
 
i read your average joe blog. that is a good webpage. you must be a Catholic who loves his faith. i was very religious in high school and am sorry i went to a liberal arts college. i wish i could have gone to a religious school.
i would have enjoyed studying theology and sticking to Christian studies.
no one was giving me any guidance though. you definitely have an academic background.
that would be a great topic for a dissertation to present a link between the shift in philosophy and the emergence of the protestant reformation. the last 10 years i have done a lot of reading because initially i wanted to see what the difference was between episcopal and catholic. my family was not particularly religious. my dad was a nonpracticing catholic and my mom was a nonpracticing lutheran. that is why i was raised in neutral ground. i see now that the episcopal church is very protestant. i attended a church with a friend of mine who was always making me feel guilty and that i was so unworthy. her pastor dearly loved Jesus and wanted to be obedient and really wanted his congregation to live the way Jesus wants us to live, but there was just something about it that i rebelled against. then she asked me to listen to a series of audio sermons and i realized that he was really into calvinism. i find a lot of protestants very mean spirited and the pastors as well. i think it is because in their religion they have to take on so much.
they were very anti-catholic. in fact, she still does not know that i have converted. i haven’t told her yet.
i would say that after studying comparative religion i was still a believer in a divine Creator, i just wasn’t sure where i fit into the whole judeo-christian picture.
that is horribly frightening what you described about the head of the philosophy department in princeton. unfortunately, in our universities today,
the quality of professors has gone down. i am sure you heard of pz meyers in minnesota (i think or wisconsin).
anyhow, thanks for all of the background information on philosophy.
 
deborahaz said:
i read your average joe blog. that is a good webpage. you must be a Catholic who loves his faith. i was very religious in high school and am sorry i went to a liberal arts college. i wish i could have gone to a religious school.
i would have enjoyed studying theology and sticking to Christian studies.
no one was giving me any guidance though. you definitely have an academic background.
that would be a great topic for a dissertation to present a link between the shift in philosophy and the emergence of the protestant reformation. the last 10 years i have done a lot of reading because initially i wanted to see what the difference was between episcopal and catholic. my family was not particularly religious. my dad was a nonpracticing catholic and my mom was a nonpracticing lutheran. that is why i was raised in neutral ground. i see now that the episcopal church is very protestant. i attended a church with a friend of mine who was always making me feel guilty and that i was so unworthy. her pastor dearly loved Jesus and wanted to be obedient and really wanted his congregation to live the way Jesus wants us to live, but there was just something about it that i rebelled against. then she asked me to listen to a series of audio sermons and i realized that he was really into calvinism. i find a lot of protestants very mean spirited and the pastors as well. i think it is because in their religion they have to take on so much.
they were very anti-catholic. in fact, she still does not know that i have converted. i haven’t told her yet.
i would say that after studying comparative religion i was still a believer in a divine Creator, i just wasn’t sure where i fit into the whole judeo-christian picture.
that is horribly frightening what you described about the head of the philosophy department in princeton. unfortunately, in our universities today,
the quality of professors has gone down. i am sure you heard of pz meyers in minnesota (i think or wisconsin).
anyhow, thanks for all of the background information on philosophy.
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I’m glad I could offer a little bit of help. I was fortunate enough to be raised in a practicing Catholic home, and I got involved in a great Catholic community (with outstanding priests) when I was in college. It’s certainly much easier when you have a support system and people to guide you. I know that, without those people, my life would have taken a much different course!
 
i would say that you have been blessed then. however, you have to give yourself a little bit of credit too because even though God opened the door to you for these opportunities to pursue, you always had the free will not to associate yourself with these people or communities - so the effort was on your behalf. although, i am sure the Holy Spirit was directing you!
 
deborahaz said:
i would say that you have been blessed then. however, you have to give yourself a little bit of credit too because even though God opened the door to you for these opportunities to pursue, you always had the free will not to associate yourself with these people or communities - so the effort was on your behalf. although, i am sure the Holy Spirit was directing you!
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Thank you. :blushing: God is good!
 
I have had a couple conversations about this recently. The best I can do is say that philosophy is religion without making a commitment. 🙂
 
and maybe philosophy is religion without having to believe any dogma or doctrine AND no commitment?

is that a fair definition?
 
Philosophy is just a way of thinking and coming to a conclusion of how things work and us trying to explain things. It’s good that priests study philosophy, because it gives them insight into the world and worldly matters.

Yeah, certain philosophers question God’s existence, but you can and it has been done by St. Thomas Aquinas to use philosophy to prove God’s existence.
 
okay, thanks. interesting view. i guess i should have stuck it out in the philosophy class i started many years ago.

i wonder if they have any of those books out there like Philosophy For Dummies. i think i should read that. LOL i have read other For Dummies books and they really give you a good overall view of the topic.

at least that would give me an introduction to philosophy.
 
If you wanted something to read this…

amazon.com/Love-Wisdom-Explanation-Meaning-Philosophy/dp/0818906952/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219843348&sr=8-1

…is a great little book which looks at the place of philosophy in relation to Catholic faith.

Fides et Ratio (On faith and reason) states in it’s opening paragraph:

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. *Ex *33:18; *Ps *27:8-9; 63:2-3; *Jn *14:8; *1 Jn *3:2).”

It is vital that we understand the Church’s teaching that we can come to know God by the light of human reason, but that God has chosen to reveal himself to us in history (Revelation).

Never be afraid of learning, truth is what the Catholic faith is all about and truth can never contradict reason.

The ancient Greek philosophers came to an understanding of “being” as being behind all existence. Imagine what a thunderbolt it was to read the Septuagint and find that the Jewish God clearly declares Himself as “I AM”. Wow! A faith that does not contradict philosophy?? The Early Church Fathers found that for those people who were not Jews- who did not have the benefit of Divine Revelation- Philosophy was the tool that could help them see God’s reality and plan!
 
deborahaz said:
i always thought it was odd that so many students studying for the priesthood study philosophy. most people that study philosophy end up questioning the existence of God.
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Are you saying that most priests end up questioning the existence of God?

And, of course, you’re assuming that questioning the existence of God (as opposed to disbelieving it) is a bad thing.

Philosophy is the use of reason to deduce truths about the nature of the universe. There is nothing about this contrary to orthodox Christianity. Unfortunately, some versions of evangelical Protestantism have gone far astray on this point, and many people assume that this is the general Christian position. I recommend that you read G. K. Chesterton’s first “Father Brown” story, “The Blue Cross.”
“But, as a matter of fact, another part of my trade, too, made me sure you weren’t a priest.” “What?” asked the thief, almost gaping.
“You attacked reason,” said Father Brown. “It’s bad theology.”
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Edwin
 
FightingFat said:
If you wanted something to read this…

amazon.com/Love-Wisdom-Explanation-Meaning-Philosophy/dp/0818906952/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1219843348&sr=8-1

…is a great little book which looks at the place of philosophy in relation to Catholic faith.

Fides et Ratio (On faith and reason) states in it’s opening paragraph:

“Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. *Ex *33:18; *Ps *27:8-9; 63:2-3; *Jn *14:8; *1 Jn *3:2).”

It is vital that we understand the Church’s teaching that we can come to know God by the light of human reason, but that God has chosen to reveal himself to us in history (Revelation).

Never be afraid of learning, truth is what the Catholic faith is all about and truth can never contradict reason.

The ancient Greek philosophers came to an understanding of “being” as being behind all existence. Imagine what a thunderbolt it was to read the Septuagint and find that the Jewish God clearly declares Himself as “I AM”. Wow! A faith that does not contradict philosophy?? The Early Church Fathers found that for those people who were not Jews- who did not have the benefit of Divine Revelation- Philosophy was the tool that could help them see God’s reality and plan!
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okay. those are some good quotes from that book also. i like the fact that it is in relation to the Catholic faith too. thanks.
 
Contarini said:
Are you saying that most priests end up questioning the existence of God?

And, of course, you’re assuming that questioning the existence of God (as opposed to disbelieving it) is a bad thing.

Philosophy is the use of reason to deduce truths about the nature of the universe. There is nothing about this contrary to orthodox Christianity. Unfortunately, some versions of evangelical Protestantism have gone far astray on this point, and many people assume that this is the general Christian position. I recommend that you read G. K. Chesterton’s first “Father Brown” story, “The Blue Cross.”

actually, i think everybody questions the existence of God at some point in their lives. priests included. some only for a nanosecond, and others, perhaps, for months or years. i am firm in my belief in the existence in God. i do NOT think that questioning the existence of God is a bad thing. why are YOU assuming so much ABOUT me?!

Edwin
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