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CMatt25
Guest
Well for one, someone in the Bible did say the gates would not prevail. So if someone believes reform was/is needed.
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P
Publisher
Guest
IF the Catholic faction of Christianity IS the “true church” which it claims…you may have a point…but since those of us outside the Catholic organization do not believe it’s claims…asking “where in the Bible” if you disagree with the Catholic church you can start your own church…makes no sense to me…I do believe in One Church…but it comprises members who happen to belong to the various branches of Christianity that place their trust in God’s work in Christ…not one single human organization.
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wmscott
Guest
Actually the authors you put forth are doing exactly what you are accusing the Catholic Church of doing, and that is revising history, these few individuals are just doing it to further their own fallible theology. You can never expect to put these people on the same level as the ECFs and Doctors of the Church. Well maybe you can if that is the belief system you choose. So be it… that is your right to believe the way you choose. I have simply chosen to follow the pillar and foundation of truth.
P
Publisher
Guest
As do I…I simply don’t put complete faith in any historian…all of them have bias…but I find the authors much more credible than the “doctors of the church” or the “ECF’s”.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Publisher,
I find Quakers intelligent and balanced, seeking peace…and that comes knowing the full truth of other people.
You are here because you are drawn to Catholicism’s scandals. You want to contradict. The vast majority of universal, apostolic Catholic people have lived their lives faithful to the Gospel since Christianity’s beginnings. I say this in behalf of our clergy as well. More facts are coming to light, and the vast majority of them also live faithful lives.
I find Quakers intelligent and balanced, seeking peace…and that comes knowing the full truth of other people.
You are here because you are drawn to Catholicism’s scandals. You want to contradict. The vast majority of universal, apostolic Catholic people have lived their lives faithful to the Gospel since Christianity’s beginnings. I say this in behalf of our clergy as well. More facts are coming to light, and the vast majority of them also live faithful lives.
J
JackVk
Guest
My objection to Protestantism claiming to be part of the “catholic” church is that each of the thirty-some-thousand denominations all claim to be THE One path to God. This causes schism over who is right, when the Catholic Church has stuck to her same doctrines for the past 2000 years.
P
Publisher
Guest
No, that is not true…the denominations do not all claim to be THE One path to God…that is a falacy I find repeated on this board by Catholics quite often.
W
wmscott
Guest
I went out and researched Quaker beliefs and I now understand why you believe the way you do with regards to this subject. Peace.
P
Publisher
Guest
Friend wmscott, I will understand that to be a compliment of the most sincere nature.I went out and researched Quaker beliefs and I now understand why you believe the way you do with regards to this subject. Peace.
Peace also to you friend.
W
wmscott
Guest
True, there was no malice, just understanding.Friend wmscott, I will understand that to be a compliment of the most sincere nature.
Peace also to you friend.
U
UniversalistGuy
Guest
You’ve added the word “one.” Now you’re talking about a one true church. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church is the only true church?
Weren’t there some antipopes as well?
I guess. But the gates of hell don’t seem to have prevailed against the Eastern Orthodox churches or the churches in the Protestant movement either so I don’t see how it’s possible for any Christian to prove that a particular church inside Christianity or a particular branch of Christianity is true. How can you prove faith?
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CMatt25
Guest
You can’t. Prove and faith are oxymorons.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Together, Christians are united on the one path. United in their belief in Him. In the One Whom called Himself the Truth. United In He Whom is far greater than any differences between us. He Whom can knock down any walls. Peace.
G
gcnuss
Guest
As a Lutheran, I do not consider Lutheranism to be the ONE path to God. Jesus Christ is the way to the Father. Those who believe in Christ and that he died for our sins are on the path to God. This path is shared by all Christians.
J
JRKH
Guest
I Know that I probaly sound like a broken record on this but…
All those who claim to believe in Christ as revealed in Sacred Scripture, Raise your hands.
All those who believe that Christ Prayed for Unity Raise you hands.
All who believe that Christ is wholly and completely and truly present in the Bread and Wine keep your hands up.
Many other examples could be given where teachings vary among denominations, and not just peripheral teachings but ones that deal with the nature of Christ, Baptism, communion, apostolic succession etc.
Christ foresaw this and made sure that the Bible contained two very important passages.
The first is the aforementioned prayer for unity:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The second is contained in Matthew 18 where He Himself telss us to “tell it to the Church” and to Listen to said Church for The Church has the power to bind and loose.
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them,** tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector**. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Protestants who adhere to the “invisible church” theory cannot do this and therefore cannot obey this command of Christ.
As much as I love my protestant bretheren and as much as I have learned from them, I must say to you that there is no way around this simple fact. You can try to redefine “church” you can try to narrow the defintion of “sin” in Mt 18 to exclude doctrinal error, but the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the fact that, without a visible authority there is no unity Instead there are thousands of different, and often contradictory, paths being espoused and followed when Christ tells us there is only one.
Peace
James
All those who claim to believe in Christ as revealed in Sacred Scripture, Raise your hands.
All those who believe that Christ Prayed for Unity Raise you hands.
- Everyones hands are still up - yes???
All those who agree that God Has a single mind, a single Will and that the path to God is a narrow one raise your hand
- Everyones hands are still up - yes???
- Everyone’s hand still up?
All who believe that Christ is wholly and completely and truly present in the Bread and Wine keep your hands up.
- How many hands went down???
Many other examples could be given where teachings vary among denominations, and not just peripheral teachings but ones that deal with the nature of Christ, Baptism, communion, apostolic succession etc.
Christ foresaw this and made sure that the Bible contained two very important passages.
The first is the aforementioned prayer for unity:
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The second is contained in Matthew 18 where He Himself telss us to “tell it to the Church” and to Listen to said Church for The Church has the power to bind and loose.
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them,** tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector**. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Protestants who adhere to the “invisible church” theory cannot do this and therefore cannot obey this command of Christ.
As much as I love my protestant bretheren and as much as I have learned from them, I must say to you that there is no way around this simple fact. You can try to redefine “church” you can try to narrow the defintion of “sin” in Mt 18 to exclude doctrinal error, but the 800 pound gorilla in the room is the fact that, without a visible authority there is no unity Instead there are thousands of different, and often contradictory, paths being espoused and followed when Christ tells us there is only one.
Peace
James
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UniversalistGuy
Guest
I haven’t been to a lot of different Protestant churches but I’ve gotten the impression that inside Protestantism there’s a kind of “live and let live” attitude. Seems to me the only people who think Protestants are arguing with each other all the time are non-Protestants. Also, I don’t see how you can seriously say that the Catholic Church has stuck to the same doctrines for the past 2,000 years. Wasn’t it changes to Christian doctrine by the Catholic Church that led to the Reformation?
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UniversalistGuy
Guest
As a Lutheran, what do you believe will happen to people that aren’t Christians and aren’t on that particular path you mentioned?
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colmcille1
Guest
Those self-same “earlier Gospel writers” included many prophecies in their writings.
Jesus preached to Jews within Canaan as did the Apostles after Him, explaining the fulfillment of those prophesies.
You are neglecting the fact that there were living witnesses who joined this burgeoning Christianity.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
People are inferring that the Catholic Church is a man made church, especially with its explanation of history.
What is not being mentioned is that because the Church started at Pentecost…the Holy Spirit filled and confirmed the Apostles and their followers in Jesus Christ, and gave them the power and strength and grace to go out to convert.
The apostles did not go out, and then the Holy Spirit working in them begin to deflate like a plug being taken out of a balloon. The same Holy Spirit continued to work through the Apostles when they appointed their successors in establishing churches throughout the world.
You can look at ancient liturgy, explained by St. Justin the Martyr to the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius around the year 155, explaining the Mass celebrated in the West, upholding the common belief that people did indeed receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist. And in this same liturgy, had vested priests and deacons, and is the most complete description of the Mass that is reflected in today’s liturgy.
Thus, by 155 AD, the Church had by then constructed and defined the role of bishop, priest, deacon, laity, defined prayers and format of the liturgy, the church environment, the chants and songs, and practices for providing the gifts of the altar, as well as recognizing the role and needs of the laity.
Subsequently, the Catholic Church came to this defined form of worship some time before St. Justin presented his explanation, and this being the work of the Holy Spirit. Heresies continued and there came a time when people were losing faith in Christ as True Man. The Council of Nicea, a great work and correction and strengthening of the faith through its consecrated souls dedicated to truth and spirit, defined Christ as True God and True Man.
As a woman, when I read church documents, I am not reading documents by a bunch of old men. I am reading anointed teachings and further implementation, integration of my faith in the world today, authored by God through human beings He has chosen – who turned out to be male --and expressed through the working of the Holy Spirit. I do not see the documents written by men. I see the teachings coming from God.
I am recognizing God and His Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ teaching the same message and in the same context and in the same form of worship and prayer as did the early Christians. I prefer to remain in the Apostolic, Universal Church and pray and bear the latest scandals. Christ always purifies His Bride and cuts off the bad trees that do not bear the fruit of Him.
Where Christians differ, seeing this in Rich Warren’s ‘Higher Purpose’ book, we all have our own choice of worship.
As various American Protestants denominations state – I don’t know how much European Protestants would be convinced of this since Europe is rooted in the Latin rite–are most concerned that Catholics do not follow Scripture, and are not based on the Bible, Catholics are most concerned about the fracture of Christianity and desire the union of faith we had before the Reformation. Protestants can hold on to their own particular charisms and customs…they are enjoyed by us who have gone to Protestant services.
It is in diversity and in common unity of faith in Christ that people should all work to overcome differences, animosity, prejudice and stereotypes in our faith. The Christian block is the greatest block in the USA to overcome evil, but because Christianity is most splintered and fractured due to of our stubborn individualism, – united we stand, divided we fall, – yes, America could fall.
I see our American Catholic Church on the parish level needing a restart. And I believe it is because we are not having our separated Brethren there to share their charism of faith. We are lacking because you and your gifts are not here with us.
What is not being mentioned is that because the Church started at Pentecost…the Holy Spirit filled and confirmed the Apostles and their followers in Jesus Christ, and gave them the power and strength and grace to go out to convert.
The apostles did not go out, and then the Holy Spirit working in them begin to deflate like a plug being taken out of a balloon. The same Holy Spirit continued to work through the Apostles when they appointed their successors in establishing churches throughout the world.
You can look at ancient liturgy, explained by St. Justin the Martyr to the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius around the year 155, explaining the Mass celebrated in the West, upholding the common belief that people did indeed receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist. And in this same liturgy, had vested priests and deacons, and is the most complete description of the Mass that is reflected in today’s liturgy.
Thus, by 155 AD, the Church had by then constructed and defined the role of bishop, priest, deacon, laity, defined prayers and format of the liturgy, the church environment, the chants and songs, and practices for providing the gifts of the altar, as well as recognizing the role and needs of the laity.
Subsequently, the Catholic Church came to this defined form of worship some time before St. Justin presented his explanation, and this being the work of the Holy Spirit. Heresies continued and there came a time when people were losing faith in Christ as True Man. The Council of Nicea, a great work and correction and strengthening of the faith through its consecrated souls dedicated to truth and spirit, defined Christ as True God and True Man.
As a woman, when I read church documents, I am not reading documents by a bunch of old men. I am reading anointed teachings and further implementation, integration of my faith in the world today, authored by God through human beings He has chosen – who turned out to be male --and expressed through the working of the Holy Spirit. I do not see the documents written by men. I see the teachings coming from God.
I am recognizing God and His Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ teaching the same message and in the same context and in the same form of worship and prayer as did the early Christians. I prefer to remain in the Apostolic, Universal Church and pray and bear the latest scandals. Christ always purifies His Bride and cuts off the bad trees that do not bear the fruit of Him.
Where Christians differ, seeing this in Rich Warren’s ‘Higher Purpose’ book, we all have our own choice of worship.
As various American Protestants denominations state – I don’t know how much European Protestants would be convinced of this since Europe is rooted in the Latin rite–are most concerned that Catholics do not follow Scripture, and are not based on the Bible, Catholics are most concerned about the fracture of Christianity and desire the union of faith we had before the Reformation. Protestants can hold on to their own particular charisms and customs…they are enjoyed by us who have gone to Protestant services.
It is in diversity and in common unity of faith in Christ that people should all work to overcome differences, animosity, prejudice and stereotypes in our faith. The Christian block is the greatest block in the USA to overcome evil, but because Christianity is most splintered and fractured due to of our stubborn individualism, – united we stand, divided we fall, – yes, America could fall.
I see our American Catholic Church on the parish level needing a restart. And I believe it is because we are not having our separated Brethren there to share their charism of faith. We are lacking because you and your gifts are not here with us.
J
JRKH
Guest
If one adopts a “live and let live” attitude, then there is no need for arguing. One say Christ really IS in the Eucharist, the other says it is merely symbolic, the both shug their shouldersI haven’t been to a lot of different Protestant churches but I’ve gotten the impression that inside Protestantism there’s a kind of “live and let live” attitude. Seems to me the only people who think Protestants are arguing with each other all the time are non-Protestants. Also, I don’t see how you can seriously say that the Catholic Church has stuck to the same doctrines for the past 2,000 years. Wasn’t it changes to Christian doctrine by the Catholic Church that led to the Reformation?
and move on.But be assured that this attitude is a recent one and in the not too distant past Protestants were just as divided and adamant in the singular rightiousness of their beliefs as catholics are accused of historically speaking. the only thing they had in common to tie them together was their common belief that the Catholic Church was wrong - in everything.
As to what led to the reformation - No it was not changes in doctrine, but rather abuses of some practices (specifically indulgences) that was the spark. Doctrinally speaking The Church had not changed it’s teachings.
Peace
James
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