Does time have a beginning?

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I am curious; Do you believe there are any possible actions that are absolutely, objectively, morrally, wrong and evil? Such as deliberately killing your neighbor’s son as he walked across your lawn, rather than the small deer, because you wanted supper and the boy had more meat on his bones?
If I were a member of a cannibalistic tribe, raised believing that meat is meat, I would find nothing objectionable in feasting on a well covered, juicy neighbour, though normally I would feast on my enemies.😃
Do you disagree with the premiss that: If there is one action that is absolutely, objectively, morrally wrong and evil, then there must be an All-powerful, All-knowing, All-loving, infinite Creator to create and revealsuch an objective moral Law? What else couldcreatean absolute Law?
Who must be also able to create Evil, if this creator is “All-powerful”:cool:
 
Yes it does, by virtue of a papal decree of 1616, never ABROGATED. That is the LAW of the Church. That churchmen do not TEACH its own papal decrees does not mean that THE CHURCH does not hold to a fixed earth, moving sun interpretation of Scripture and a revelation.
I would suspect that you are wrong because I’ve never heard any Catholic priest state that the earth is the center of the universe, and in every Catholic school that I know about, they teach that the earth revolves about the sun. Can you give those Catholic colleges and universities which teach geocentrism?
 
Yes it does, by virtue of a papal decree of 1616, never ABROGATED. That is the LAW of the Church. That churchmen do not TEACH its own papal decrees does not mean that THE CHURCH does not hold to a fixed earth, moving sun interpretation of Scripture and a revelation.
What papal decree?
 
Originally posted by sid
I don;t think that the Catholic Church teaches geocentrism now.

Originally Posted by cassini
Yes it does, by virtue of a papal decree of 1616, never ABROGATED. That is the LAW of the Church. That churchmen do not TEACH its own papal decrees does not mean that THE CHURCH does not hold to a fixed earth, moving sun interpretation of Scripture and a revelation

sid:
I would suspect that you are wrong because I’ve never heard any Catholic priest state that the earth is the center of the universe, and in every Catholic school that I know about, they teach that the earth revolves about the sun. Can you give those Catholic colleges and universities which teach geocentrism?
Sid, why, if you are to respond, do you not do so with some sort of chronology. I say above the Church does teach ‘G’ by virtue of the 1616 papal decree defining it is revealed in Scripture. This was further taught in 1633 and in 1664. Given there was never an abrogation the teaching still stands LEGALLY.
You respond with another version of your first statement.
To which I will respond again:
Yes it does, by virtue of a papal decree of 1616, never ABROGATED. That is the LAW of the Church. That churchmen do not TEACH its own papal decrees does not mean that THE CHURCH does not hold to a fixed earth, moving sun interpretation of Scripture and a revelation That is why you never heard any Catholic priest state that the earth is the center of the universe, and in every Catholic school college or university that you know about, teach that the earth revolves about the sun.
 
What papal decree?
The Authority of the Anti-Copernican Inquisition

In 1542, in the wake of the Protestant Reformation, Pope Paul III set up various congregations to assist the Pope in his task of safeguarding the Apostolic faith held ‘in agreement with Sacred Scripture and apostolic tradition.’ One of the most important of these was the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Inquisition, otherwise known as the Congregation of the Holy Office. The function of this body was specifically to combat heresy at the highest level. Then, in 1588, Pope Sixtus V (1585-90) gave this congregation even more explicit powers in the Bull Immensa Dei (God Who cannot be Encompassed). In this directive he made the reigning pope, whoever he may be, Prefect of the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Inquisition. This gave the Catholic world to understand that decisions assigned to its judgment, before publication, would invariably be examined and ratified by the Pope himself as supreme judge of the Holy See, and would go forward clothed with such papal authority.
Pope Paul V Confirms the Verdict

The following, according to the Vatican minutes, was the order of events after the examination. On Wednesday, February 24th, 1616 the same propositions were qualified in virtue of the Pope’s order:

(1) “That the sun is in the centre of the world and altogether immovable by local movement, was unanimously declared to be “foolish, philosophically absurd, and formally heretical, inasmuch as it expressly contradicts the declarations of Holy Scripture in many passages, according to the proper meaning of the language used, and the sense in which they have been expounded and understood by the Fathers and theologians.”

(2) The second proposition, “That the earth is not the centre of the world, and moves as a whole, and also with a diurnal movement,” was unanimously declared “to deserve the same censure philosophically, and, theologically considered, to be at least erroneous in faith.”

That DECREE 1holycatholic.
 
The Authority of the Anti-Copernican Inquisition
That’s not a papal decree.

The pope teaches infallibly directly, not through cardinals etc…

And FWIW geocentrism and heliocentrism are both bad science.
 
If I were a member of a cannibalistic tribe, raised believing that meat is meat, I would find nothing objectionable in feasting on a well covered, juicy neighbour, though normally I would feast on my enemies.😃

Who must be also able to create Evil, if this creator is “All-powerful”:cool:
Actually, Since God said in the beginning, looking at ALL He had created, and therefore is eternally saying it in His, one, eternal, infinite, always in the present, tense thought, “It is good, very good”; therefore there is no created evil. There never can be anything created that is evil in it’s nature. Sin is evil in that sin is a turning away from God, a choice of rejecting His grace. But sin is not a created thing, it is a choice we can make with our free wills. Therefore sin, the absence of goodness or grace, is not a created thing, therefore God did not, (could not) create evil.
You seem to be implying that there is nothing absolutely, objectively, morally wrong or evil in shooting your neighbors son because there is more meat on his bones than the small deer, BUT, you did not say it explicitly. Why not? Your statement could be understood to mean,"I know it is absolutely wrong and evil to kill my neighbors son, but I choose not to be concerned with that fact I know." If you believe it is absolutely, objectively morally wrong and evil; say so. If you are not aware of any hypothetical action by anyone that you know would be absolutely, objectively, morally wrong and evil; **just say so.** (This of coarse includes lying to people or deliberately keeping information from them that would likely help them out)
 
Sid, why, if you are to respond, do you not do so with some sort of chronology. I say above the Church does teach ‘G’ by virtue of the 1616 papal decree defining it is revealed in Scripture. This was further taught in 1633 and in 1664. Given there was never an abrogation the teaching still stands LEGALLY.
You respond with another version of your first statement.
To which I will respond again:
Yes it does, by virtue of a papal decree of 1616, never ABROGATED. That is the LAW of the Church. That churchmen do not TEACH its own papal decrees does not mean that THE CHURCH does not hold to a fixed earth, moving sun interpretation of Scripture and a revelation That is why you never heard any Catholic priest state that the earth is the center of the universe, and in every Catholic school college or university that you know about, teach that the earth revolves about the sun.
If everyone in the Catholic Church teaches that geocentrism is wrong, and what you say is true, that geocentrism is correct, then would that not be contrary to the teaching of the indefectibility of the Roman Catholic Church?
 
That’s not a papal decree.

The pope teaches infallibly directly, not through cardinals etc…

And FWIW geocentrism and heliocentrism are both bad science.
Can you verify for us as to why it is bad science to assert that the planets revolve about the sun?
 
Douglas, the above was put together by me. The first part - I have separated the two - has various references from many sources. The actual words of the decree was first recorded publicly by Giorgius Polaccus, Venice, 1644 according Fr W. W. Roberts in his book The Pontifical Decrees against the Doctrine of the Earth’s Movement and the Ultramontane Defence of Them, Parker & Co., London, 1870 and second edition, 1885. It can of course be found in many places elsewhere.

The second part was put together by me to clarify the decrees because most books say INCORRECTLY the Church was defending the PTOLEMAIC SYSTEM. As it says the Church did not defend any SYSTEM.

As I understand it the Scriptures clearly state the sun moves. It does not clearly state the earth does not move and is fixed at the centre of the world. That is only inferred in various statements. Here are a few examples:

Behold I will bring again the shadow of the lines, by which it is now gone down in the sun dial of Achaz with the sun, ten lines backwards. And the sun returned ten lines by the degrees by which it was gone down”. — (Isaias 38:8)

“*Then Josue spoke to the Lord, in the day that he delivered the Amorrhite in the sight of the children of Israel, and he said before them: Move not, O sun, toward Gabaon, nor thou, O moon, toward the valley of Ajalon. And the sun and the moon stood still… Is it not written in the book of the just [now lost]? So the sun stood still in the midst of the heaven, and hasted not to go down the space of one day. There was not before nor after so long a day, the Lord obeying the voice of a man, and fighting for Israel.” *— (Josue 10:12-13).

“*The heavens show forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands….He hath set his tabernacle in the sun: and he, as a bridegroom coming out of his bride chamber, Hath rejoiced as a giant to run the way. His going out is from the end of heaven, and his circuit even to the end thereof: and there is no one that can hide himself from his heat.” *—(Ps. 18:1, 6-7).

We see in these passages that the sun is said to move so cannot be fixed at the centre of the world. . Now a few about the earth:

“*Thou who didst found the earth on its stable support (super stabilitatem suam); it shall not be moved for ever.” *—Ps. 103:5

He hath fixed the earth, which shall not be moved.” —Ps. 92:1

He has made the world firm, not to be moved.” —Ps. 95:10

It can only be inferred from these sentences that the earth is fixed at the centre of the world.
I have to disagree with your last statemen. "It can only be inferred from these sentences that the earth is fixed at the centre of the world". What is the proof that a simpler summation of those biblical references could not be, “The earth is where I put it.” If God put all creation in motion and by His unbreakable laws moves every proton, neutron, and electron and quark and … according to His preordained plan, does that have our infinitely powerful God putting the earth exactly where He wants it at all times, but also the entire universe? every meteor, comet, seashell, lightning strike, hailstone, etc, etc. is exactly where He has eternally ordained they should be, and no one can move them from where He saysthey will beand when they will be there.
I believe another Biblical reference is for a JUST Man being like a fixed peg, even though he moves around, doing God’s will where ever he is. Such a man is afixedpeg and can move, why can’t the earth be a similar “fixed peg” and not movable from where God wants it to be in an orbit around the sun at just theright distance, tipped at just the right angle, with a moon that always keeps one side towards the earth, … everything exactly as God ordains? I know that is not how you understand those bible references, but because you believe your understanding, does that prove there is no other way to understand those bible references or the Church docuements you have cited that do not say explicitly that the earth does not move?

Is it possible that the devil wants to use your personal (faulty?) interpretations of scripture and what the Church said 400 years ago, to make people question the Church’s teachings on all issues because they will believe, without sufficient personal investigation on their own, your claim, implied to some point, that the Church taught that the earth is at the center of creation and therefore science is wrong and will see how ridiculous such a claim is and the end result will be people rejecting the Church because you concluded (in error) more than was said by the Church?
 
Prove it.

As i said “God is utterly irrelevant, as at this point he is an unproven, unsupported hypothesis.” In fact its not even a proper hypothesis, as for a hypothesis by its very nature MUST be testable.
God is eternal. 🙂
Gen.1 reads “In the beginning God created the heanvens and the earth.”. With this beginning time became measurable.
Read this, and when you do, ask God to give you understanding with faith in your heart.

God bless you,
bluelake
 
Actually, Since God said in the beginning, looking at ALL He had created, and therefore is eternally saying it in His, one, eternal, infinite, always in the present, tense thought, “It is good, very good”; therefore there is no created evil. There never can be anything created that is evil in it’s nature. Sin is evil in that sin is a turning away from God, a choice of rejecting His grace. But sin is not a created thing, it is a choice we can make with our free wills. Therefore sin, the absence of goodness or grace, is not a created thing, therefore God did not, (could not) create evil.
If God did not create "evil’, though he says he did, (read Isaiah 45) where does evil come from? Did man create evil by disobeying God’s commands? If so then God did not create everything. Now, it is true that God said that everything he created was “good”, but when he created man he upgraded it to “very good”. At the time he didn’t realize what a mess his creation would make and by Gen.6 he had repented that he had made man. This was not the first time he made a cods up in the creation department. He created the angels and got a rebellion on his hands. Later on, by not learning from his mistakes, he makes Israel his favourites and they repaid him by worshiping a golden calf. Again he plans to get rid of them and start anew with Moses. Fortunately for Israel Moses talked some sense into him and he agreed not to destroy the whole caboodle, It’s all in the Bible
Code:
 You seem to be implying that there is nothing absolutely, objectively, morally wrong or evil in shooting your neighbors son because there is more meat on his bones than the small deer, BUT, you did not say it explicitly. Why not? Your statement could be understood to mean,"I know it is absolutely wrong and evil to kill my neighbors son, but I choose not to be concerned with that fact I know."  If you believe it is absolutely, objectively morally wrong and evil; say so. If you are not aware of any hypothetical action by anyone that you know would be absolutely, objectively, morally wrong and evil; **just say so.** (This of coarse includes lying to people or deliberately keeping information from them that would likely help them out)
“Eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear”. I implied nothing. All I stated is that if I was a cannibal my conscience would not prick me for eating another human being. Their moral code is different than the one Western man goes by. The Chinese eat dogs, you don’t, so it is all relative to how one is brought up and what type of society one is part of.
 
Life cannot exist without opposition. “Evil” is the name that we give to that opposition. He who creates life, creates the evil to that life. Who created Satan?
 
Heliocentrism:
Heliocentrism, or heliocentricism, is the astronomical theory that the Earth and planets revolve around the Sun and that the Sun is stationary and at the center of the universe.

Your link states that heliocentrism is false. What’s your point?
The point is clear that heliocentric can refer to a model of the solar system in which the planets revolve about the sun.
 
The point is clear that heliocentric can refer to a model of the solar system in which the planets revolve about the sun.
That’s true, but it’s only part of Heliocentrism. Galileo taught that the sun was the center of the universe, not just the solar system. Further, even if you limit heliocentrism to mean a heliocentric universe Galileo was still unwarranted in proclaiming it as truth as he was unable to prove it as the equipment required to measure parallax shift and demonstrate it didn’t exist until long after his death. Galileo was instructed not to teach heliocentrism as fact, but only as supposition which he could not prove.
 
If everyone in the Catholic Church teaches that geocentrism is wrong, and what you say is true, that geocentrism is correct, then would that not be contrary to the teaching of the indefectibility of the Roman Catholic Church?
No it does not. That was one possibility I investigated over the years. The indefectibility of the Church guarantees that the Church will never define an article of faith or morals that will be proven false. It also guarantees that no official act of the Church will be shown wrong or that the Church will contradict itself.

So, first official act was the papal decree of 1616, confirmed as immutable in 1633 and in 1820. And that is why there was NEVER an ABROGATION, because of the Church’s indefectibility. The very ABSENCE of an official act of contradiction proves the 1616 decree IS protected as immutible and binding. No pope ever DARED TOUCH THE DECREE. They shoved it under the carpet yes. They pretended it was abrogated yes, but it was all a sham.
 
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