Does traditionalism lead to divisions?

[Jack007]

Some allege that traditional catholicism leads to divisions,disunity,rifts and inequality in the church. how should i respond to this argument?

my take is that we should say “unity in diversity” ie unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_in_diversity

i request posters to

respect V2
talk about the topic,not one another
not to pit one group against another
not to debate how pious and devout one group is.
and follow all forum rules and stickies.

What does it mean to be a “traditional Catholic”?
Aren’t all Catholics traditional? this is answered in rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traditional.html
so dont debate that too much.

 

[OraLabora]

Some allege that traditional catholicism leads to divisions,disunity,rifts and inequality in the church. how should i respond to this argument?

my take is that we should say “unity in diversity” ie unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_in_diversity

i request posters to

respect V2
talk about the topic,not one another
not to pit one group against another
not to debate how pious and devout one group is.
and follow all forum rules and stickies.

What does it mean to be a “traditional Catholic”?
Aren’t all Catholics traditional? this is answered in rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traditional.html
so dont debate that too much.

I’ll bite by asking: does respecting Church tradition (small-t) necessarily mean the EF Mass? My own opinion, no. The abbey I’m associated with does a marvellous job of wedding the modern and the traditional: Gregorian chant for the propers and ordinary but vernacular plainchant for the rest in an OF Mass; modern architecture but traditional layout. Ancient Rule of Saint Benedict, but a modern Divine Office that follows St. Benedict’s option to complete the Office in one week, if one wants a different schema than his. Lauds and Vespers in Latin Gregorian chant; for the other hours, French plainchant except for Latin hymns and Latin responsory and Marian antiphon at Compline.

I suspect the division comes when some folks say this or that must be done exactly the way it was done in (even if was a relatively late innovation, such as the 1960 Roman Breviary which only goes back to 1910).

 

[Jack007]

Glad to hear about the abbey. It gave me a new outlook.

 

[dmar198]

Some allege that traditional catholicism leads to divisions,disunity,rifts and inequality in the church. how should i respond to this argument?

my take is that we should say “unity in diversity” ie unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_in_diversity

i request posters to

respect V2
talk about the topic,not one another
not to pit one group against another
not to debate how pious and devout one group is.
and follow all forum rules and stickies.

What does it mean to be a “traditional Catholic”?
Aren’t all Catholics traditional? this is answered in rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traditional.html
so dont debate that too much.

I don’t think the Rorate Caeli website is a good resource for traditional Catholic issues. If I understand their posts correctly, Rorate Caeli promotes dissent from the pastoral mission of the pope, and I think that therefore they are anti-traditional.

 

[catholictiger]

Some allege that traditional catholicism leads to divisions,disunity,rifts and inequality in the church. how should i respond to this argument?

my take is that we should say “unity in diversity” ie unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_in_diversity

i request posters to

respect V2
talk about the topic,not one another
not to pit one group against another
not to debate how pious and devout one group is.
and follow all forum rules and stickies.

What does it mean to be a “traditional Catholic”?
Aren’t all Catholics traditional? this is answered in rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traditional.html
so dont debate that too much.

I think sometimes people get so concerned about staying true to Catholic values and truth, that they forget people are involved. They feel great about being up in arms about defending traditional catholic values they forget about the people.

But sometimes traditionalist are trying to move the Church in a direction that is not called for by the Church you must be careful about that.

But a few things are important

1. Two things are central to the Catholic liturgy, the Worship of God and the sanctification of the people. Sometimes I feel people focus on the former and forget the latter, or at-least to give it what it deserves
2. upholding Catholic Truth and Catholic Traditions. Long standings traditions do help us sanctify the people and worship God, so they should be thrown out because people are hostile to it.
3. when we change we must be patient, while it is very important to have good liturgy and good traditional values, going into parish and completely changing everything will cause large division in parishes. As long as a parish isn’t doing something that is moving people away from God, we must be patient with change to more traditional values.

Could be a few more but these are the most important things IMO. In order. So 1 is more important than 3, 2 more than 3.

 

[Jack007]

I don’t think the Rorate Caeli website is a good resource for traditional Catholic issues. If I understand their posts correctly, Rorate Caeli promotes dissent from the pastoral mission of the pope, and I think that therefore they are anti-traditional.

In that case, let me clarify, dont read anything wrong or bad on that site.

I think sometimes people get so concerned about staying true to Catholic values and truth, that they forget people are involved. They feel great about being up in arms about defending traditional catholic values they forget about the people.

But sometimes traditionalist are trying to move the Church in a direction that is not called for by the Church you must be careful about that.

But a few things are important

1. Two things are central to the Catholic liturgy, the Worship of God and the sanctification of the people. Sometimes I feel people focus on the former and forget the latter, or at-least to give it what it deserves
2. upholding Catholic Truth and Catholic Traditions. Long standings traditions do help us sanctify the people and worship God, so they should be thrown out because people are hostile to it.
3. when we change we must be patient, while it is very important to have good liturgy and good traditional values, going into parish and completely changing everything will cause large division in parishes. As long as a parish isn’t doing something that is moving people away from God, we must be patient with change to more traditional values.

Could be a few more but these are the most important things IMO. In order. So 1 is more important than 3, 2 more than 3.

I see. You are good with theology.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think pretty much anything can lead to division when taken to the extreme. It’s hard to really argue against such a claim because there are self-identified “traditional” groups that are sedevacantist and are causing division.

But that doesn’t mean there is something inherent to being a traditional Catholic that will inevitably lead to division. That’s the tack I would take.

 

[HelenRose]

Some allege that traditional catholicism leads to divisions,disunity,rifts and inequality in the church. how should i respond to this argument?

my take is that we should say “unity in diversity” ie unity without uniformity and diversity without fragmentation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_in_diversity

i request posters to

respect V2
talk about the topic,not one another
not to pit one group against another
not to debate how pious and devout one group is.
and follow all forum rules and stickies.

What does it mean to be a “traditional Catholic”?
Aren’t all Catholics traditional? this is answered in rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/02/what-does-it-mean-to-be-traditional.html
so dont debate that too much.

If a person loves something beautiful and good the only way to convey that love is through charity and love. Division and discord are separate issues altogether. It is when people begin to push the envelope and act with an “in your face attitude” that causes the problems. Always keep in mind (and this is for both positions): it is not the responsibility of others to appreciate what you appreciate. It is your responsibility to make what you love, beautiful and welcoming.

There is room in our beautiful, wonderful Church for all that is beautiful in both forms.
To quote Mother Teresa: “It is not how much we do,
but how much love we put in the doing.
It is not how much we give,
but how much love we put in the giving”

 

[Neofight]

Traditional Catholicism doesn’t lead to division…people (those calling themselves traditionalists, and those who call others traditionalists) who don’t understand Catholicism cause division when discussing the topic of Traditional Catholicism.

If those offering disparaging comments one way or another were better catechized, there would be far less (maybe none at all) division over the topic.

Peace and all Good!

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I think where the divisions come from is the individuals involved. There’s going to be a problem when one group says (or implies): My way is the right way (and therefore, you’re wrong) or My way is the holier/more reverent way (and therefore you are unholy and irreverent).

OF/EF - The Church allows both
Communion on the tongue/communion in the hand - The Church allows both
A woman covering or not covering her head - The Church allows both
Boys as altar servers/girls as altar servers - The Church allows both

A person may have preferences for one or another of the things above, but that doesn’t make one way right and the other way wrong. As long as everyone works from the assumption that “I prefer X and someone else prefers Y but the Church says either one is fine and we’re both good Catholics with our preferences” then there won’t be divisions. Unfortunately, all too often it comes out as “I prefer X and you prefer Y, therefore you’re an unholy jerk. Sigh. If only you were more like me the world would be a better place.”

 

[Jack007]

I think pretty much anything can lead to division when taken to the extreme. It’s hard to really argue against such a claim because there are self-identified “traditional” groups that are sedevacantist and are causing division.

But that doesn’t mean there is something inherent to being a traditional Catholic that will inevitably lead to division. That’s the tack I would take.

If a person loves something beautiful and good the only way to convey that love is through charity and love. Division and discord are separate issues altogether. It is when people begin to push the envelope and act with an “in your face attitude” that causes the problems. Always keep in mind (and this is for both positions): it is not the responsibility of others to appreciate what you appreciate. It is your responsibility to make what you love, beautiful and welcoming.

There is room in our beautiful, wonderful Church for all that is beautiful in both forms.
To quote Mother Teresa: “It is not how much we do,
but how much love we put in the doing.
It is not how much we give,
but how much love we put in the giving”

Traditional Catholicism doesn’t lead to division…people (those calling themselves traditionalists, and those who call others traditionalists) who don’t understand Catholicism cause division when discussing the topic of Traditional Catholicism.

If those offering disparaging comments one way or another were better catechized, there would be far less (maybe none at all) division over the topic.

Peace and all Good!

I understand.

 

[Jack007]

I will tell all these to him and let you know the reply.

 

[johnnyc176]

Liberalism in the Church is probably the most cause of division since after Vatican II and still to this day.

 

[clem456]

catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means

Anytime Catholics go about setting themselves apart from “the whole” (holos) it seems that is divisive by nature. The Church calls us to unity. The Church is God’s instrument of unity:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;

• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282

• fraternal knowledge of each other;283

• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

 

[Jack007]

He said that btc try to influence gtc and make them btc.
He disagreed about liberalism and said he lives in the spirit of vii.
He said that btc make sedevacantism.

 

[clem456]

Liberalism in the Church is probably the most cause of division since after Vatican II and still to this day.

The same could be said of conservatism, traditionalism, secularism, individualism, communism, etc…these detract from Catholicism, which is the only ism that Christ calls us to.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

He said that btc try to influence gtc and make them btc.

Could you spell things out rather than using abbreviations. I have no idea what you just said.

 

[NiceMarmot]

The same could be said of conservatism, traditionalism, secularism, individualism, communism, etc…these detract from Catholicism, which is the only ism that Christ calls us to.

I’m going to suggest that the appropriate ‘ism’, that is the root cause of division is MODERNISM.
The sum of all heresies.

 

[Jack007]

Could you spell things out rather than using abbreviations. I have no idea what you just said.

Sorry:imsorry:

Btc. “bad” traditional catholics
Gtc. “good” traditional catholics.

 

[johnnyc176]

The same could be said of conservatism, traditionalism, secularism, individualism, communism, etc…these detract from Catholicism, which is the only ism that Christ calls us to.

I said liberalism is probably the most cause thereby implying that there were others.