Does traditionalism lead to divisions?

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And without getting sidetracked about false worship, one can have Catholics in different cultures who celebrate the Lord’s Supper in different fashions, and yet all the same Supper.
But that argument falls apart when at one Mass (English) everyone receives and in another (Spanish, Polish, etc.) half don’t receive.

The point is well-taken however when people delve into all-German or all-Italian food after the Mass in the parking lot or parish hall. 🙂
 
There appears to be some misunderstanding through parts of this thread. Some of that is a matter of how we define terms.

For example, some people define “unity” as “uniformity”. However, the Church does not define unity as uniformity, and the prime example of that is the last 2000 years of history. From the time the Apostles went out, culture played a part in, for example, liturgy. That is why we have such ancient liturgies as the Maronite liturgy, for example, and the Ruthinian Byzantine liturgy (both of which we have in Portland) as well as the Latin liturgy.

Are the different liturgies divisive? Certainly, in history, there have been implications of that. But the Church recognizes the validity of the historical approaches various cultures have taken, and John Paul 2 moved to stop the “latinization” of the eastern rites.

And within the Latin/Roman rite, we have a poster commenting about the “division” caused by having a Spanish Mass and and English Mass; it appears that his solution is to force both of them to an all Latin Mass, as if diversity were a bad word. I don’t know how far back in the Bible we need to go to show that peoples, as they spread throughout the earth, formed cultures which were different one from another. And without getting sidetracked about false worship, one can have Catholics in different cultures who celebrate the Lord’s Supper in different fashions, and yet all the same Supper.

If we have to force Roman Catholics to give up their cultures by all celebrating the Mass in Latin, in the false assumption that this makes for unity, then logically, we need to force the other 20+ Churches, all Catholic, to be Roman Catholic.

But that is only true if one presumes that diversity automatically means division (in a negative sense), and that uniformity is the same as, or synonymous with unity.

Are there divisions between cultures? Only a fool or a complete ignoramus would deny that. But the divisions are based on our brokenness which fails to see the humanness in others of a different culture. Are there people who do not want to associate with another culture? Of course there are; but that is because of their own brokenness, not because their culture is “better”, or the other culture somehow deficient. The issues between the Italians and the Polish, both Roman Catholic, in part gets to different cultures, and in part gets to tribalism. When attitudes of superiority intrude, then there is divisiveness. But wanting to worship in a Mass that has cultural aspects (such as using the vernacular of that culture) is most certainly not, in and of itself, divisive. Cultural differences can be positive or negative; and it is up to the individuals as to how they approach other cultures.

The same goes for those who consider themselves Traditional Catholics; when they step over the line form “this spirituality fits me best” to “my spirituality is superior to/better than/ more clearly Catholic than” those who prefer the OF, then it becomes divisive. When derogatory terms such as “liberal” or “modernism” are thrown about over matters which the Church allows in diversity, then division is being sown. The contempt that has been shown against those who prefer Gregorian chant, or the organ, or the fiddle back chasuble, or Latin and ad orientem is clearly divisive and not of the mind of the Church - or of Christ.

Both sides have thrown bricks; and both sides have blamed the other as having negative attitudes, and blamed those negative attitudes for the brick throwing they have done. And both sides have forgotten that when one points a finger at another, there are three pointing back.

So to answer the OP; it leads to divisions when one side or the other treats their own position as superior to the other side. It does not have to be so, but we can go clear back to Cain and Able and their differences; and human nature has not changed a whole lot since.
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But that argument falls apart when at one Mass (English) everyone receives and in another (Spanish, Polish, etc.) half don’t receive.

The point is well-taken however when people delve into all-German or all-Italian food after the Mass in the parking lot or parish hall. 🙂
Given that a) one is only required to receive once per year and that b) there are constant comments about everyone receiving, your comment is a non sequitur and non starter.
 
I think that there’s a difference between division caused by different ethnic groups who may not want to worship together, and that of those who prefer the TLM and traditional teachings of the Church.
But wouldn’t you agree the number of the former greatly outnumber the number of the latter? I mean is the latter even significant in the vast population of Catholics? Even if you add in those who prefer the OF “properly done” (some Latin, chant, antiphons, etc.) would this number increase that much? I seem to recall a Cardinal Arinze video where he mentioned that had the New Mass been done right (or words to that effect), there would be no one asking to use the 1962 liturgical books. And he’s probably right. But guess who gets most of the blame for divisions within the Church?
 
But wouldn’t you agree the number of the former greatly outnumber the number of the latter? I mean is the latter even significant in the vast population of Catholics? Even if you add in those who prefer the OF “properly done” (some Latin, chant, antiphons, etc.) would this number increase that much? I seem to recall a Cardinal Arinze video where he mentioned that had the New Mass been done right (or words to that effect), there would be no one asking to use the 1962 liturgical books. And he’s probably right. But guess who gets most of the blame for divisions within the Church?
Well, I’m not seeing that the former outnumber the latter, since I don’t see any division of an ethnic type at the parishes that I’ve attended. And I don’t recall that there are forum threads devoted to divisions of the ethnic sort. Or maybe I just haven’t been paying attention.
The reason that I mention it is that I think that the two things are entirely different - I mean, divisions caused by ethnic differences, and division caused by viewing the Catholic Faith from two different stances. And while traditionalists may be few in number, they tend to be quite vocal about their concerns, which may be why they get blamed for division (if that’s what you’re saying). The OF properly done is still vastly different from the TLM. I attend the OF (though I consider myself a trad), and most of the time, it’s properly celebrated. There is rarely ever abuse of any kind, and the priests take their role in the Mass quite seriously, and it’s reverently celebrated.

It took very little time for me to memorize the format of the OF. But it took two years of attending the TLM before I could figure out what was going on, which was quite frustrating at times (though well worth the effort involved). And it’s not just the Mass that’s a source of division. It’s that the Catholic Faith was practiced in a different manner before the changes in the late 1960’s.
 
Well, I’m not seeing that the former outnumber the latter, since I don’t see any division of an ethnic type at the parishes that I’ve attended.
I think this depends on where you are. The Archdiocese of Chicago has Masses said like in 24 vernaculars where if you go into the suburbs it’s mostly English, although Spanish congregations are growing, and demands for Spanish priests are growing. In any case, you don’t hear EF vs OF here; it’s the English Mass or the Spanish Mass or whatever. I don’t know of anyone within 5-10 miles who attends the Latin Mass. If there are, all I can say is they’re not vocal enough. 🙂
It’s that the Catholic Faith was practiced in a different manner before the changes in the late 1960’s.
Definitely. Even the EF is celebrated differently today than it was back in the '50’s. Maybe it was because it was taken for granted back then, I don’t know.

I don’t know if anything’s been accomplished in this thread other than arousing more anger so I’ll bow out of further discussion.

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Well, I’m not seeing that the former outnumber the latter, since I don’t see any division of an ethnic type at the parishes that I’ve attended. And I don’t recall that there are forum threads devoted to divisions of the ethnic sort. Or maybe I just haven’t been paying attention.
The reason that I mention it is that I think that the two things are entirely different - I mean, divisions caused by ethnic differences, and division caused by viewing the Catholic Faith from two different stances. And while traditionalists may be few in number, they tend to be quite vocal about their concerns, which may be why they get blamed for division (if that’s what you’re saying). The OF properly done is still vastly different from the TLM. I attend the OF (though I consider myself a trad), and most of the time, it’s properly celebrated. There is rarely ever abuse of any kind, and the priests take their role in the Mass quite seriously, and it’s reverently celebrated.

It took very little time for me to memorize the format of the OF. But it took two years of attending the TLM before I could figure out what was going on, which was quite frustrating at times (though well worth the effort involved). And it’s not just the Mass that’s a source of division. It’s that the Catholic Faith was practiced in a different manner before the changes in the late 1960’s.
Ethnicity in itself is not a source of division, ethnicity is part of the diversity of peoples.
And I’m not sure how we get to a point where the Mass is a source of division.
Division happens when we get locked into one way of expressing ourselves to the exclusion of others. It happens on both extremes of the spectrum.
The Church says this about diversity.
**I. THE CHURCH IS ONE **
“The sacred mystery of the Church’s unity” (UR 2)
813 The Church is one because of her source: "the highest exemplar and source of this mystery is the unity, in the Trinity of Persons, of one God, the Father and the Son in the Holy Spirit."259 The Church is one because of her founder: for "the Word made flesh, the prince of peace, reconciled all men to God by the cross, . . . restoring the unity of all in one people and one body."260 The Church is one because of her “soul”: "It is the Holy Spirit, dwelling in those who believe and pervading and ruling over the entire Church, who brings about that wonderful communion of the faithful and joins them together so intimately in Christ that he is the principle of the Church’s unity."261 Unity is of the essence of the Church:
What an astonishing mystery! There is one Father of the universe, one Logos of the universe, and also one Holy Spirit, everywhere one and the same; there is also one virgin become mother, and I should like to call her "Church."262
814 From the beginning, **this one Church has been marked by a great diversity **which comes from both **the variety of God’s gifts **and the diversity of those who receive them. Within the unity of the People of God, a multiplicity of peoples and cultures is gathered together. Among the Church’s members, there are different gifts, offices, conditions, and ways of life. "Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions."263 The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church’s unity. Yet sin and the burden of its consequences constantly threaten the gift of unity. And so the Apostle has to exhort Christians to "maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."264
815 What are these bonds of unity? Above all, charity "binds everything together in perfect harmony."265 But the unity of the pilgrim Church is also assured by visible bonds of communion:
  • profession of one faith received from the Apostles;
-common celebration of divine worship, especially of the sacraments;
  • apostolic succession through the sacrament of Holy Orders, maintaining the fraternal concord of God’s family.266
Why do we fear diversity? And why do we equate diversity with division?
 
Ethnicity in itself is not a source of division, ethnicity is part of the diversity of peoples.
And I’m not sure how we get to a point where the Mass is a source of division.
Division happens when we get locked into one way of expressing ourselves to the exclusion of others. It happens on both extremes of the spectrum.
The Church says this about diversity.

Why do we fear diversity? And why do we equate diversity with division?
I think the comment above pretty well sums it up: “Division happens when we get locked into one way of expressing ourselves to the exclusion of others”

It is a bit like asking why some people become hide-bound about daily activities (I always brush my teeth after I take a shower) - aka routines; rigid about personal “ceremonies” (The creche has to be on top the credenza - that is where we always put it), and the list goes on. One only has to have raised one or more children to have experienced a very young one lose it over a change in a pattern of doing something.

Patterns become a shortcut to accomplishing a task, so that we don’t have to sit down and think through every step of the process. They become part of our “identity”, if you will. I can think back to a college sociology class on Marriage and the Family, where we studied patterns that families set up, from a small as a kiss in the morning as one or both leave for work, to more elaborate patterns involving, for example, holiday celebrations. Patterns become part of our identity - the “who we are by what we do” component; they can also be the means of distinguishing us from the “other”, which seems to relate to tribalism.

To put it into the abused terminology of psychology, some people are more anal, some are more oral, and from what I have observed, one group has a far harder time of dealing with change than the other. Certainly, not everyone equates change, or diversity, with division. But an observer might note that some who become very fixated on one form may be far, far more emotionally involved in staying in that form than they are intellectually. Without trying to derail the thread, an example is the method of receiving Communion; CITH has very ancient roots, and never mind that it was perfectly acceptable at one time in the Church’s history, it is absolutely horrible to allow it now. That is far more an emotional response than an intellectual one; And I am not promoting one over the other - simply watching how strong the emotions run on the matter (and COTT seems to have just about as ancient a history - OK? lets not derail).
 
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