Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

[Sarcelle]

No. An embryo which starts out with XY sex chromosomes is male.

In order for all embryos to start out female, they would all have to begin with XX sex chromosomes. They do not.

There is such a thing called XY gonadal dysgenesis.

A very public case is Maria Martinez Patino who looked like any normal female and was raised female until tests came back with an XY chromosome.

 

[CopticChristian]

How much scientific data do you need to be convinced? You remind me of those global warming skeptics that hide behind the idea that it can’t be true because it’s not completely proven, and it’s too complicated to completely prove. Aren’t observation and common sense enough to motivate action? Meanwhile the environment is being damaged, species are dying, and Pacific Islanders are in danger of being refugees, because people hide behind the “complicacy” of it all…

Lobo,

You don’t really understand do you. There is a book, big book, looking at it right now…it is called…

The Pathologic Basis of Disease
by Robbins…

To document anything, you need Pathologic data or data from tissue…

Medicine is built on Anatomy, Physiology and then there is Pathophysiology…if you infer that there is something different about the brain of a person with Gender Dysphoria then to prove that you need tissue…otherwise there ain’t no way you will convince any physician in the world that this is true…

Example…

Osteomyelitis.

I think you have Osteomeyolitis…

How do you know…

Well your leg is swollen, red, and you have fever…

Now what

Let’s get an x-ray…

Ok…what does that show…

The X-ray is suspicious for Osteomyelitis

Ok, what do we do know…treat it…

Nope…lets get a bone scan and MRI…

OK…got it now what

The bone scan is hot, the MRI suggests Osteomyelitis…

Ok, lets get on with it…now what…

Well, we need to do a biopsy and culture or we will be treating the unknown…

Ok…now what…

Got the biospy, got the culture…Ok…now what

It is not Osteomyelitis…it is Osteosarcoma…

Oh, Oh…now what…

Biopsy is the sina qua non for identity of anything found on x-ray, Scan or MRI…

Show show me some evidence…:coffeeread:

 

[CopticChristian]

There is such a thing called XY gonadal dysgenesis.

A very public case is Maria Martinez Patino who looked like any normal female and was raised female until tests came back with an XY chromosome.

Sarcelle,

This is an anomaly that has nothing to do with Gender Dysphoria.

 

[JimG]

There is such a thing called XY gonadal dysgenesis.

A very public case is Maria Martinez Patino who looked like any normal female and was raised female until tests came back with an XY chromosome.

Yes, this is a rare disease. Does this disease account for all or even a significant percentage of transgender cases who currently present for surgical treatment?

 

[Kolbe300]

Your inference as to what you believe my reasoning as it regards morality is based on what?

It’s based upon the part of your comment I quoted. Almost all of my comments are preceded by what it is that I’m commenting on.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s based upon the part of your comment I quoted. Almost all of my comments are preceded by what it is that I’m commenting on.

Kolbe,

I don’t read minds. Tell me how it is you are able to discern what you believe to be what you percieve to be a moral judgement. Make it simple for my simple mind.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, this is a rare disease. Does this disease account for all or even a significant percentage of transgender cases who currently present for surgical treatment?

JIm,

It is a confusion. The issue is Transgender…intersex individuals exist however that does not equate to the DSM IV Gender Dysphoria of the wish, desire, preference, since these intersex problems are dealt with usually in childhood…

A person need not be intersexed to have a Gender Identity Disorder, and not everyone with GID is intersexed.

What we are dealing with here is the Man Who Would be Queen…reviewed here…

narth.com/docs/queen.html

The Man Who Would Be Queen,
by J. Michael Bailey, Ph. D.
A Review by A. Dean Byrd, Ph.D., MBA, MPH

 

[Kolbe300]

I don’t read minds. Tell me how it is you are able to discern what you believe to be what you percieve to be a moral judgement. Make it simple for my simple mind.

Coptic,

I’ll quote what you said again:

Then let us suppose that the data comes in…are you ready for this…you cannot prevent this one…someone is going to get the idea that we can prevent it once we understand it and then what are you going to do when that research starts…Uh Oh…

Then we will discover it in utero…and those that believe in Abortion, those that believe that they don’t want these kids born…that will be bad…

The genie in the box once let out**…creates stuff you don’t want to see**…

It appears to me that if the data were to come in, you forsee things like abortions as a result (and, sadly, you’re most likely right). These things could certainly cause us to say a big, moral, “Uh oh.” In other words, it comes across to me as if your desire or belief that there won’t or can’t be a pathological cause, is a moral one.

That’s how it comes across to me. My opinion, in other words.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic,

I’ll quote what you said again:

It appears to me that if the data were to come in, you forsee things like abortions as a result (and, sadly, you’re most likely right). These things could certainly cause us to say a big, moral, “Uh oh.” In other words, it comes across to me as if your desire or belief that there won’t or can’t be a pathological cause, is a moral one.

That’s how it comes across to me. My opinion, in other words.

Kolbe,

I was divorced from emotion and morality. You probably do not understand. My mind does not work that way. I tend to direct my thoughts knowing what the medical/science would do without invoking morality or emotion, just the way I learned to think. Since I do have a moral conscience I am sure that some of my thoughts are tuned that way…but in the context of this discussion…all I was doing was pointing out the slippery slope that this voyage would go on…facts are facts…

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

How much scientific data do you need to be convinced? You remind me of those global warming skeptics that hide behind the idea that it can’t be true because it’s not completely proven, and it’s too complicated to completely prove. Aren’t observation and common sense enough to motivate action? Meanwhile the environment is being damaged, species are dying, and Pacific Islanders are in danger of being refugees, because people hide behind the “complicacy” of it all…

While I agree with you it seems on the gender issue. Please don’t drag global warming into this. I happen to be a degreed meteorologist who totally doesn’t believe theres global warming. While cliatologists are 50/50 on it, meteorologsts don;t believe in it. Just trying to keep you out of trouble

 

[CopticChristian]

While I agree with you it seems on the gender issue. Please don’t drag global warming into this. I happen to be a degreed meteorologist who totally doesn’t believe theres global warming. While cliatologists are 50/50 on it, meteorologsts don;t believe in it. Just trying to keep you out of trouble

SP,

Good point. It is like saying that you get castrated, have your penis inverted and before all that you were XY…you are still XY…I agree.

 

[St_Francis]

How much scientific data do you need to be convinced? …

AGW aside, suppose one were to find a scientific basis for transsexualism? Wouldn’t we then be able to cure it rather than have people go through all this sex reassignment surgery?

Could you explain why the fact that some people have a belief that they are the opposite sex from their physical sex should have any effect on Catholic teaching regarding sex and sexual morality?

 

[CopticChristian]

AGW aside, suppose one were to find a scientific basis for transsexualism? Wouldn’t we then be able to cure it rather than have people go through all this sex reassignment surgery?

Could you explain why the fact that some people have a belief that they are the opposite sex from their physical sex should have any effect on Catholic teaching regarding sex and sexual morality?

S.F.,

Post #112 in this thread addreses that very issue…

Then let us suppose that the data comes in…are you ready for this…you cannot prevent this one…someone is going to get the idea that we can prevent it once we understand it and then what are you going to do when that research starts…Uh Oh…

Then we will discover it in utero…and those that believe in Abortion, those that believe that they don’t want these kids born…that will be bad…

The genie in the box once let out…creates stuff you don’t want to see…

 

[ephesians4]

If you identify – and perform – female roles in a society, then the society should treat you as a female… Period. In fact, that’s the very thing most transsexuals are trying to achieve.

It seems like you think it stands to reason that a person who pretends to be something they are not, should be treated by everyone as if that’s what they are.

Where do you stop along that line of reasoning? Should Kiefer Sutherland be arrested… Period or given a medal… Period for the events depicted in the TV series 24?

Of course, you would not actually be a female – you would actually be an MtF transsexual – but distinction between an MtF transsexual and female should not matter outside the bedroom.

Motherhood disagrees. Chromosomes disagree.

Womens’ nature gives them womanhood, and their experience of life and struggle as a girl and woman, earns them womanhood. We cheapen these things, and attempt to cheapen womanhood and everything it entails if we act like none of these things matter, that any man who feels like it is a woman because he choose to act like one.

A person’s sex is not merely within the bedroom any more than it is merely social roles.

A man pretending to be a woman does not become or understand womanhood through the act any more than a military fantasist becomes or understands what it is to be a combat soldier.

 

[St_Francis]

S.F.,

Post #112 in this thread addreses that very issue…

I didn’t want to derail anything, but i have to admit that this ought to be a difficulty for those who advocate abortion and who believe there are genetic reasons for certain characteristics. Just a matter of time…

 

[CopticChristian]

I didn’t want to derail anything, but i have to admit that this ought to be a difficulty for those who advocate abortion and who believe there are genetic reasons for certain characteristics. Just a matter of time…

SF,

This does not derail anything. It is relevant. The thread is that a wrench has been thrown into Catholic teaching on Sex and Marriage. Catholic teaching on Sex and Marriage is that Marriage has relevance for procreation.

A Married couple that will bear a child is asked to bear that child openly, acceptingly and if it happens that it is discovered in the year 4040, Church teaching do not change, and someone advocates in 4040, there is something that causes Gender Dysphoria and can be detected in the womb then the Church will advocate for accepting that child knowing that that child is a child of God and will fight against anyone wanting to abort that child if there are people believing that it is a fate worse than death to bring this poor Gender Dysphoric child into the world…

Of course in the year 4040 if it is found that there is some in the womb cause I would imagine that there would be a way of preventing someone from castrating themselves and pretending that they are something they are not and there would be a satisfying treatment to render the Gender Dysphoric situation normal.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

I didn’t want to derail anything, but i have to admit that this ought to be a difficulty for those who advocate abortion and who believe there are genetic reasons for certain characteristics. Just a matter of time…

I’m a prolife transgendered woman.

 

[St_Francis]

SF,

This does not derail anything. It is relevant. The thread is that a wrench has been thrown into Catholic teaching on Sex and Marriage. Catholic teaching on Sex and Marriage is that Marriage has relevance for procreation.

A Married couple that will bear a child is asked to bear that child openly, acceptingly and if it happens that it is discovered in the year 4040, Church teaching do not change, and someone advocates in 4040, there is something that causes Gender Dysphoria and can be detected in the womb then the Church will advocate for accepting that child knowing that that child is a child of God and will fight against anyone wanting to abort that child if there are people believing that it is a fate worse than death to bring this poor Gender Dysphoric child into the world…

Of course in the year 4040 if it is found that there is some in the womb cause I would imagine that there would be a way of preventing someone from castrating themselves and pretending that they are something they are not and there would be a satisfying treatment to render the Gender Dysphoric situation normal.

Yes, of course. While on the one hand, Church teachings won’t change, so transsexual people cannot marry if they have the surgery, which upsets them, Church teaching will always proclaim the truth that abortion is intrisically wrong, and so in the extremely unlikely case that a genetic cause were to be found, the Church would proclaim that it is wrong to kill unborn transsexual people also.

Yet the people they believe will help them are those who would continue to advocate for the killing of the unborn…

Oh, what a tangled web we weave…

 

[St_Francis]

I’m a prolife transgendered woman.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes, of course. While on the one hand, Church teachings won’t change, so transsexual people cannot marry if they have the surgery, which upsets them, Church teaching will always proclaim the truth that abortion is intrisically wrong, and so in the extremely unlikely case that a genetic cause were to be found, the Church would proclaim that it is wrong to kill unborn transsexual people also.

Yet the people they believe will help them are those who would continue to advocate for the killing of the unborn…

Oh, what a tangled web we weave…

SF,

Better to live as you were created than to forego creation for an attempt to recreate.