Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

[aux1]

Nuntym,

HBO has a special on addiction that shows brain scans while addicted to Methamphetamine and after. When

Hi Coptic,

Why are you referencing imaging studies when you have said yourself that they are worthless and only histology is accurate?

Of course, you are very well aware that in both cases histology studies cannot be done for ethical reasons, aren’t you?

 

[aux1]

I see your point and grant that it makes sense, but the problem is that we’re dealing with people whose thinking is clouded. A man who thinks he is a woman is deeply confused. And not just about who he is. It is unintentionally comic that the view of women held by men who think they are women is cloyingly stereotypical. All the people now who wish to emulate June Cleaver (-of “Leave it to Beaver”) are men!)

Because women are being socially conditioned not to expose their femininity too much… And MtF transsexuals being men at this age never receive this conditioning.

Plus, of course, overcompensation.

 

[fix]

Because women are being socially conditioned not to expose their femininity too much… And MtF transsexuals being men at this age never receive this conditioning.

Plus, of course, overcompensation.

Basically it is all contrived.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Coptic,

Why are you referencing imaging studies when you have said yourself that they are worthless and only histology is accurate?

Of course, you are very well aware that in both cases histology studies cannot be done for ethical reasons, aren’t you?

Aux,

Imaging studies show something is happening, not specificcaly what, but something. It is no evidence for a specific but evidence for a generality. The only conclusion is that something happens and something reverts back.

In the case of trying to establish a diagnosis then imaging studies just say something is happening.

I made no mention nor did I make an effort to say that it is diagnostic. Your lack of understanding of the value of imaging studies is black/white…this or that.

In the context of addiction, there are changes to the brain noted by imaging studies. Those changes revert when addiction stops. There is no inference to suggest a cause as was attempted for transgender.

 

[markeverett49]

Because women are being socially conditioned not to expose their femininity too much… And MtF transsexuals being men at this age never receive this conditioning.

Plus, of course, overcompensation.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that men who think they are women never heard that they weren’t supposed to act feminine (or “like girls”?) and for this reason act overly feminine? That doesn’t sound right to me.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

Mark,

It is almost humerous…trapped in a man’s body, this woman, trying to get out…struggles to express comically what they think a woman would be like…if there really was a woman in there…it would be obvious…

Humerous! Sounds like you are trying to make fun of the trabnsgender community, which is not charitable. What do you care? How I live my life does’t affect you one bit. Nothing you do or say is going to stop me. WHy not direct your vitreal at something else, like a real crime like abortion. Yes Im very prolife.and even don’t believe in global warming. You might find some of us asside from the gender issue are not all that bad.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Coptic,

Why are you referencing imaging studies when you have said yourself that they are worthless and only histology is accurate?

Of course, you are very well aware that in both cases histology studies cannot be done for ethical reasons, aren’t you?

Aux,

On further study to conclude that the notion that the Hypothalmus/Stria terminalis data concludes anything does not take into account the status of hormone ingestion.

This is the conclusion…

They concluded that the BSTc provides evidence for a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder and proposed that such was determined before birth.

Here is the criticism…

Criticisms of the former statement suggest[8] the study used an unrepresentative sample and did not adequately control for hormone replacement therapy, which has been shown to influence hypothalamic size,[9] even though the study tried to do this by including non-transsexual male and female controls which, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal.[6] The statement about the neurobiological basis from birth has later been brought to question, though not refuted, by a follow up study by the same group which found that the sexual dimorphism of the BSTc is not present before adulthood (approximately 22 years of age) even though transsexuals report being aware of their gender identity since childhood.[10]

**8. a b Zhou J, Hofman M, Gooren L, Swaab D (1995). “A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality”. Nature 378 (6552): 68–70. doi:10.1038/378068a0. PMID 7477289.

1. Lawrence, A. A. (2007). A critique of the brain-sex theory of transsexualism.
2. Hulshoff Pol, H. E., Cohen-Kettenis, P. T., Van Haren, N. E., Peper, J. S., Brans, R. G., Cahn, W., et al. (2006). Changing your sex changes your brain: Influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure. European Journal of Endocrinology, 155(Suppl. 1), S107-S114. **

**10. Chung W, De Vries G, Swaab D (2002). “Sexual differentiation of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis in humans may extend into adulthood”. J Neurosci 22 (3): 1027–33. PMID 11826131. **

 

[CopticChristian]

Humerous! Sounds like you are trying to make fun of the trabnsgender community, which is not charitable. What do you care? How I live my life does’t affect you one bit. Nothing you do or say is going to stop me. WHy not direct your vitreal at something else, like a real crime like abortion. Yes Im very prolife.and even don’t believe in global warming. You might find some of us asside from the gender issue are not all that bad.

Stephanie,

You interjected yourself into a public conversation that started with…

Mark

I see your point and grant that it makes sense, but the problem is that we’re dealing with people whose thinking is clouded. A man who thinks he is a woman is deeply confused. And not just about who he is. It is unintentionally comic that the view of women held by men who think they are women is cloyingly stereotypical. All the people now who wish to emulate June Cleaver (-of “Leave it to Beaver”) are men!)

I posted

It is almost humerous…trapped in a man’s body, this woman, trying to get out…struggles to express comically what they think a woman would be like…if there really was a woman in there…it would be obvious…

Elizabeth posted

That’s been my contention all along. It’s an imagined sense of what the other gender must be like…

Mark posted

Ironically, it isn’t very imaginative! It’s much more of a stereotype, and often a pre-women’s-movement one! (Heels, pearls, dresses, lots of make up, o, and very young because they rarely want to be a woman in the sense of giving birth!)

I don’t know you. I directed my conversation to Mark. Elizabeth responded as did Mark. You show discontent. I have seen personally what a transgender is like, cared for them, observed them, interacted with them and in my opinion it is comical. I have the rigtht to state that this is comical.

There was a television show with a transgender Bacelorette…that I found humerous at best…

perezhilton.com/?p=9673

Transamerican Love Story is centered on transgender activist and actress Calpernia Addams.

The show follows Calpernia as she whittles down a group of eight bachelors, living together in a Los Angeles-area home, with the help of her best friend and fellow transgender activist Andrea James.

I have the right to laugh, cry, be sad, be angry, accept, reject and I am sorry that you feel the way you do…it is what it is…the response is the response…you don’t have to like it, you have the right to not answer any of these public posts and I have the right to expres my point of view.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

I have the right to laugh, cry, be sad, be angry, accept, reject and I am sorry that you feel the way you do…it is what it is…the response is the response…you don’t have to like it, you have the right to not answer any of these public posts and I have the right to expres my point of view.

And you have the right to the consequences to those actions if done in public, short of a violent response too.That response was not charitable. Theres keeping the debate in good taste.

 

[CopticChristian]

And you have the right to the consequences to those actions if done in public, short of a violent response too.That response was not charitable. Theres keeping the debate in good taste.

Stephanie,

The transgender has a sad situation. That is the truth. What they do is what they do. Too many showed up in the Emergency Room, beaten, brought from suicide attempts, drunk, drugged…not a pretty site. Beaten because they tried to seduce an unsuspecting male. Suicide from jumping from bridges for who knows what. Drunk because they drink. Drugged because they took drugs. None of them looked like women. While there is extreme sadnes, there is also comedy and I am not the first to think of this, as life is comedy and drama…this is life.

 

[aux1]

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that men who think they are women never heard that they weren’t supposed to act feminine (or “like girls”?) and for this reason act overly feminine? That doesn’t sound right to me.

The thing is that when a teenage girl exagerates it, her family reacts with negative reinforcement (*Don’t dress like a ***!). So she learns to walk the fine line between feminity and vulgarity. She literally spends years learning how to choose the right kind and amount of makeup.

MtF transsexuals have never had this experience, so they end up overdoing it.

 

[CopticChristian]

The thing is that when a teenage girl exagerates it, her family reacts with negative reinforcement (*Don’t dress like a ***!). So she learns to walk the fine line between feminity and vulgarity. She literally spends years learning how to choose the right kind and amount of makeup.

MtF transsexuals have never had this experience, so they end up overdoing it.

Aux,

So what you are saying is that a concept of percieved sexuality is learned. In fact throughout life it is learned. This somewhat discounts desire, preference, belief, etc that a man thinks he is a woman as it is a learned behavior.

 

[aux1]

On further study to conclude that the notion that the Hypothalmus/Stria terminalis data concludes anything does not take into account the status of hormone ingestion.

Hi Coptic,

(1) That’s a far cry from your original claim that such studies are worthless.

(2) If the differentiation happens in adulthood, not in childhood… So what? My point that transsexuals have brain structure matching their mental identity, not their physical identity still stands. When and why that happens is secondary. We’re looking at ontological implications of this.

(3) If the study in question did not correctly control for hormone intake, then we are still left with a conclusion that hormone levels can influence brain structure (and why wouldn’t they, if sexual differentiation in humans is hormone-driven?). This would be a very powerful finding anyway. It would imply two things: (a) an individual with messed-up hormonal balance will grow up transsexual; (b) by undergoing a hormone therapy, a person actually rewires his/her brain to a target gender.

Anyway, I’m going to return to the point made by the OP. From what we know so far, an individual’s sexuality has several dimensions:

(a) genotype (XX/XY)

(b) phenotype (male/female)

(c) self-perceived gender (male/female)

(d) object of sexual attraction (males/females)

Now, the most typical combinations are:

• man: XY, male phenotype, male ego, female-attracted
• woman: XX, female phenotype, female ego, male-attracted

Problem is, these are not the only combinations possible, and specifically, an individual cannot in general be classified simply as a man/woman basing on one parameter alone. Yes, it will work for most people, but not for all. To wit:

• XX/XY differentiation is not enough. Example: CAIS – an XY female (albeit sterile).
• phenotype itself is not enough. Examples: (1) CAIS; (2) Gender Identity Disorder.
• self-perceived gender is not enough. As you have noted, other people will not agree with individual’s self-identification, and can react quite violently after finding that individual’s phenotype does not neet their expectations.
• object of sexual attraction. Homosexuality, enough said.

That’s why I believe that two ontological errors should be avoided:

(1) reducing individual to XX/XY type. It’s incorrect, reductionist and materialist.

(2) lumping together transsexuality and homosexuality. As most homosexuals have no symptoms of GID, there’s good reason to believe that both disorders are unrelated (although one may be misdiagnosed as the other).

 

[aux1]

So what you are saying is that a concept of percieved sexuality is learned. In fact throughout life it is learned.

No. The ways of expressing sexuality are learned.

There’s no biological reason why skirts are seen as womanly, while pants are seen as manly. It’s purely a cultural invention, which originally had to do with horseback riding…

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

Hi Coptic,

(1) That’s a far cry from your original claim that such studies are worthless.

(2) If the differentiation happens in adulthood, not in childhood… So what? My point that transsexuals have brain structure matching their mental identity, not their physical identity still stands. When and why that happens is secondary. We’re looking at ontological implications of this.

(3) If the study in question did not correctly control for hormone intake, then we are still left with a conclusion that hormone levels can influence brain structure (and why wouldn’t they, if sexual differentiation in humans is hormone-driven?). This would be a very powerful finding anyway. It would imply two things: (a) an individual with messed-up hormonal balance will grow up transsexual; (b) by undergoing a hormone therapy, a person actually rewires his/her brain to a target gender.

Anyway, I’m going to return to the point made by the OP. From what we know so far, an individual’s sexuality has several dimensions:

(a) genotype (XX/XY)

(b) phenotype (male/female)

(c) self-perceived gender (male/female)

(d) object of sexual attraction (males/females)

Now, the most typical combinations are:

• man: XY, male phenotype, male ego, female-attracted
• woman: XX, female phenotype, female ego, male-attracted

Problem is, these are not the only combinations possible, and specifically, an individual cannot in general be classified simply as a man/woman basing on one parameter alone. Yes, it will work for most people, but not for all. To wit:

• XX/XY differentiation is not enough. Example: CAIS – an XY female (albeit sterile).
• phenotype itself is not enough. Examples: (1) CAIS; (2) Gender Identity Disorder.
• self-perceived gender is not enough. As you have noted, other people will not agree with individual’s self-identification, and can react quite violently after finding that individual’s phenotype does not neet their expectations.
• object of sexual attraction. Homosexuality, enough said.

That’s why I believe that two ontological errors should be avoided:

(1) reducing individual to XX/XY type. It’s incorrect, reductionist and materialist.

(2) lumping together transsexuality and homosexuality. As most homosexuals have no symptoms of GID, there’s good reason to believe that both disorders are unrelated (although one may be misdiagnosed as the other).

Very well put!

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi Coptic,

(1) That’s a far cry from your original claim that such studies are worthless.

(2) If the differentiation happens in adulthood, not in childhood… So what? My point that transsexuals have brain structure matching their mental identity, not their physical identity still stands. When and why that happens is secondary. We’re looking at ontological implications of this.

(3) If the study in question did not correctly control for hormone intake, then we are still left with a conclusion that hormone levels can influence brain structure (and why wouldn’t they, if sexual differentiation in humans is hormone-driven?). This would be a very powerful finding anyway. It would imply two things: (a) an individual with messed-up hormonal balance will grow up transsexual; (b) by undergoing a hormone therapy, a person actually rewires his/her brain to a target gender.

Anyway, I’m going to return to the point made by the OP. From what we know so far, an individual’s sexuality has several dimensions:

(a) genotype (XX/XY)

(b) phenotype (male/female)

(c) self-perceived gender (male/female)

(d) object of sexual attraction (males/females)

Now, the most typical combinations are:

• man: XY, male phenotype, male ego, female-attracted
• woman: XX, female phenotype, female ego, male-attracted

Problem is, these are not the only combinations possible, and specifically, an individual cannot in general be classified simply as a man/woman basing on one parameter alone. Yes, it will work for most people, but not for all. To wit:

• XX/XY differentiation is not enough. Example: CAIS – an XY female (albeit sterile).
• phenotype itself is not enough. Examples: (1) CAIS; (2) Gender Identity Disorder.
• self-perceived gender is not enough. As you have noted, other people will not agree with individual’s self-identification, and can react quite violently after finding that individual’s phenotype does not neet their expectations.
• object of sexual attraction. Homosexuality, enough said.

That’s why I believe that two ontological errors should be avoided:

(1) reducing individual to XX/XY type. It’s incorrect, reductionist and materialist.

(2) lumping together transsexuality and homosexuality. As most homosexuals have no symptoms of GID, there’s good reason to believe that both disorders are unrelated (although one may be misdiagnosed as the other).

Aux,

As a physician, these studies mean little. What other things change the hypothalmus? Do you know?

 

[SaintFrancis333]

In the early part of last century there were studies showing sex with children was a natural act (you can Google yourself). It began the whole “sexual revolution”. Since science has become a God of sorts, it is thought if we can justify our actions scientifically, we can make the case it is moral. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. Just the latest iteration of Genesis 3.

I have never heard of that before but sadly, I don’t doubt it. It won’t be the last we hear of it either. Homosexuality was considered a disorder, a mental illness even, in the past. Now it is widely celebrated. How much longer, I wonder, until consenting adult-minor relationships are protected by law and widely celebrated. He was thirty something, she was sixteen. “She’s old enough to know what sex is and the consequences, she made a consenting choice” blah blah blah. That’s how I feel the area will start. Create some grey areas and cast doubt on the status quo of sexuality so that from the shadows, depravity can run rampant.

 

[CopticChristian]

No. The ways of expressing sexuality are learned.

There’s no biological reason why skirts are seen as womanly, while pants are seen as manly. It’s purely a cultural invention, which originally had to do with horseback riding…

Aux,

You bring up a good point. I was thinking of getting some Kilts and wearing them I am not sure about the big belt and man/purse though…;.

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

Basically it is all contrived.

So is the whole antitransgender movement.

 

[CaliLobo]

CopticChristian:

So basically the Transgendered should just undergo castration and be done with it…

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual IV (APA 1994) of the American Psychiatric Association has defined Gender Identity Disorder (GID) in children as a strong, persistent cross gender identification, a discomfort with one’s own sex, and a preference for cross sex roles in play or in fantasies. Some researchers (Friedman 1988, Phillips, 1992) have identified another less pronounced syndrome in boys — chronic feelings of unmasculinity…

No one is advocating castration here. And you’ve done my work for me. The kind of stuff I describe IS a scientific reality, and is not junk science after all!
Edward H:

Now take anyone of your favorite little new terms…gender expression, gender identity, etc…and look deeply at the literature for any evidence of a real test to disprove its existence. You won’t find it.

What you find in th e social science feed is an ever enlarging field of largely non intersecting “followings”…one professor proposes an idea…produces papers with graduate students…the grad students then go off and start sub stains in other universities.

If you study the proliferation of “terms” inthe social sconces over the last 30 years, it really is a very littered, self feeding profession.

So what’s wrong with proliferation of social science concepts? We are expanding our knowledge. Your comment reflects your Catholic fear of liberal academia, because it threatens the Catholic Church.

markeverett49:

Be that as it may, nothing in the OP makes me think Church teaching should change. If a man believes he is a woman, I don’t think he should marry a man OR a woman; I think that such a person should not marry at all.

So you support denying equal civil rights to transgender people? Why??

CopticChristian:

It is a diagnosis based on wish, desire, preference, imagination…and nothing more.

Your support for your point of view will not change what is…preference, imagination, desire and wish…perhaps rendering them as the Hjira as you point out would be best…but you brought it up I did not…

It is almost humerous…trapped in a man’s body, this woman, trying to get out…struggles to express comically what they think a woman would be like…if there really was a woman in there…it would be obvious…

Elizabeth502:

That’s been my contention all along. It’s an imagined sense of what the other gender must be like…

**There’s nothing humorous or imaginative about it. It’s clear you lack Christlike compassion for trans people. Trans men really are men; trans women really are women. It is offensive to insist otherwise. It would be like calling a non-trans man a woman, or vice versa. **

Don’t trivialize what is, to them, not a joke, not an imagination, not a disease cured by medicine, but the genuine way they were created by God. It’s just like in previous centuries when left-handedness was persecuted. Does being in the minority of humanity make something wrong? Now we know today that left-handedness, is normal, created by God, and can be an asset.

How will the Church minister to transgender people when they believe its members don’t love them??

markeverett49:

Ironically, it isn’t very imaginative! It’s much more of a stereotype, and often a pre-women’s-movement one! (Heels, pearls, dresses, lots of make up, o, and very young because they rarely want to be a woman in the sense of giving birth!)

You assume that to be feminine, you have to give birth to babies. That is a misogynistic, archaic, and chauvinistic idea of what femininity is. Childbirth is not necessary or even sufficient for femininity. Many, many women do not wish to have children for reasons small and big, but that doesn’t make them any less feminine. Your idea is hateful and offensive to women.

Any women out there agree with me?? Maybe they’re not on CAF, since they’ve rejected Catholicism because of Catholics like you.

CopticChristian:

I read all your stuff. You got educated by GLBT to see their point of view. They are wrong.

Why are they wrong? Because the Vatican says so? The Bible says little about the issue. The Vatican was wrong about geocentrism, why should we trust them with science?

Let’s refocus this thread. How do we reconcile what is, despite the hesitancy of individual Catholics on this forum, the very real scientific reality of transgender people with Catholic teaching??