Does what we know about transgender people throw a wrench at Catholic teaching on sex and marriage?

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A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2

Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.” It stated that:

“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”

Finally, he quotes the Catholic Catechism, item 2297:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The process of sexual reassignment involves major changes to the persons body. For a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual, this involves removal of the penis, testicles, and scrotum. It involves hormone treatment and perhaps surgery to enlarge the breasts, removing part of the Adam’s apple, and/or changing the shape of her face. For a female-to-male (FTM) transsexual it involves the surgical removal of the breasts, uterus, ovaries, and hormone treatment, Fr. Sanders refers to this as:

“… a radical and grotesque mutilation of the body…To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.”

For matters like marriage and ordination, the church considers only the genetic gender of the individual. Thus a MTF transsexual could not marry a man, even if they were able to obtain a marriage license, because the church would regard this as a same-sex marriage of two males. A MTF transexual might not be able to marry a woman even though the church considered them as an opposite-sex couple. The church has refused to marry some couples in the past who cannot conceive children. Similarly a FTM transsexual would not be eligible for consideration for ordination, no matter what his appearance, personality, talents or knowledge are.

Fr. Saunders notes that transsexualism appears to stem from psychological development, and thus should be treated by psychotherapy. He may not be aware that this has been tried countless thousands of times, apparently without a single successful outcome.

During late 2008, Pope Benedict XVI said in a speech that our gender was a gift from the creator. He denounced those who would try to change it. He said: “It is a question here of faith in the Creator and of listening to the language of creation, the devaluation of which leads to the self-destruction of man and therefore to the destruction of the same work of God.” 3

Sponsored link:

2000-2003: Official, although initially secret, ruling by the Vatican:
After extensive study, the Vatican issued a “sub secretum” (secret) document in the year 2000 to papal representatives in each country. Unfortunately, it became obvious that many bishops did not learn the contents of the document, so copies were sent to the presidents of bishops’ conferences as well. Finally, in 2003 it was discussed in the Catholic News Service. 4

The document allegedly states that:

Bishops must never alter the gender listed in baptismal records to match the individual’s new gender identity. However, a margin note is acceptable.

Persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery are not eligible to marry, to be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life.
An unknown source stated:

“The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was [born] male, he remains male. If she was [born] female, she remains female.”

Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of Belleville, Ill., president of the U.S. bishops’ conference, sent a brief letter to U.S. bishops in 2002-OCT informing them of the Vatican document and emphasizing the instruction to not alter baptismal records. He wrote:

“The altered condition of a member of the faithful under civil law does not change one’s canonical condition, which is male or female as determined at the moment of birth.”

Bishop Gregory may not have been aware of the existence of intersexual babies who are born with ambiguous genitalia and whose birth gender cannot be determined “at the moment of birth.”

According to the Catholic News Service, the document seems to regard transsexuals as being mentally ill, unstable, and mentally incompetent. It states:

“… that the [gender reassignment surgery or GRS] procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will ‘cure’ the patient’s internal turmoil.”

Religious superiors have: “administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure.”

“A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise
their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal.”

“… those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of
mental instability.”

Close
Sounds like to me the church doesnt condemn ALL sex change surgeries.
 
What is the source of this material? The quotes are not clear. Sexual mutilation surgery is ALWAYS gravely sinful.
 
A reader of the Catholic Herald from Roseville, CA asked Father Saunders – a columnist from the magazine:

“I know a man who had a ‘sex change’ operation and is now a ‘woman.’ What moral teaching does the Church give on this subject?” 1,2

Father Saunders quoted a Vatican II document titled: “Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World.” It stated that:

“Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.”

Finally, he quotes the Catholic Catechism, item 2297:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

Fr. Saunders notes that transsexualism appears to stem from psychological development, and thus should be treated by psychotherapy. He may not be aware that this has been tried countless thousands of times, apparently without a single successful outcome.

During late 2008, Pope Benedict XVI said in a speech that our gender was a gift from the creator. He denounced those who would try to change it. He said: “It is a question here of faith in the Creator and of listening to the language of creation, the devaluation of which leads to the self-destruction of man and therefore to the destruction of the same work of God.” 3

Sponsored link:

2000-2003: Official, although initially secret, ruling by the Vatican:
After extensive study, the Vatican issued a “sub secretum” (secret) document in the year 2000 to papal representatives in each country. Unfortunately, it became obvious that many bishops did not learn the contents of the document, so copies were sent to the presidents of bishops’ conferences as well. Finally, in 2003 it was discussed in the Catholic News Service. 4

The document allegedly states that:

Bishops must never alter the gender listed in baptismal records to match the individual’s new gender identity. However, a margin note is acceptable.

Persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery are not eligible to marry, to be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life.
An unknown source stated:

“The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was [born] male, he remains male. If she was [born] female, she remains female.”

Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of Belleville, Ill., president of the U.S. bishops’ conference, sent a brief letter to U.S. bishops in 2002-OCT informing them of the Vatican document and emphasizing the instruction to not alter baptismal records. He wrote:

“The altered condition of a member of the faithful under civil law does not change one’s canonical condition, which is male or female as determined at the moment of birth.”

Bishop Gregory may not have been aware of the existence of intersexual babies who are born with ambiguous genitalia and whose birth gender cannot be determined “at the moment of birth.”

According to the Catholic News Service, the document seems to regard transsexuals as being mentally ill, unstable, and mentally incompetent. It states:

“… that the [gender reassignment surgery or GRS] procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will ‘cure’ the patient’s internal turmoil.”

Religious superiors have: “administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure.”

“A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise
their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal.”

“… those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of
mental instability.”

Close
Sounds like to me the church doesnt condemn ALL sex change surgeries.
SP,

You and the lurkers need to understand that whatever secret document you refer to is not available to read…

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html
The priest, citing confidentiality rules, declined to speak on the
record to Catholic News Service for this story.
The Vatican document’s specific points include:
The above information is the conclusion of the interview…what follows here is not part of the interview an is not substantiated. It is a stand alone statement without any reference as to where it came from…
– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It
concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain
extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the
patient’s internal turmoil.
My suspicion is that this is related to intersex children and not adults with imagined Gender Dysphoria. Unless someone can produce that document then it remains heresay, gossip, and unsubstantiated malarky…

Provide evidence of the document or discard the belief.

The interview with Fr. Saunders does not substantiate this claim.
 
SP,

This is undocumented and probably refers to intersex children…
The Vatican document’s specific points include:
– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.
Until you provide the document we will never know.
 
SP,

You and the lurkers need to understand that whatever secret document you refer to is not available to read…

ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/CatholicTSDecision.html

The above information is the conclusion of the interview…what follows here is not part of the interview an is not substantiated. It is a stand alone statement without any reference as to where it came from…

My suspicion is that this is related to intersex children and not adults with imagined Gender Dysphoria. Unless someone can produce that document then it remains heresay, gossip, and unsubstantiated malarky…

Provide evidence of the document or discard the belief.

The interview with Fr. Saunders does not substantiate this claim.
Read my other link that I just posted.
 
So at work we had a seminar on transgender people and etiquette when meeting a transgender person.

What I learned was honestly fascinating. We have long thought of gender as binary (male vs female), but it is scientifically very clear that gender is an analysis of four variables:
  1. Assigned gender upon birth
  2. Sexual orientation
  3. Gender identity
  4. Gender expression
What is also scientifically very clear is that these four variables can all be blurred, and have NO correlation with one another. And that is what explains the existence of gays (#1 not correlated with #2), transgender (#1 not correlated with #3 and #4), and intersex people (#1 is blurred and not correlated with #3 and #4). #2 can be blurred (bisexuality, transgender attraction), and #3 and #4 can be blurred (genderqueer, crossdressing, switching gender identity in one’s mind, etc.) And transgender people can also be gay or straight (all four variables not correlated).

My question then is,** if it’s scientifically very evident that our concept of gender, which we long thought of as binary, instead is expressed by a wide range of values for the four variables above, and humans do exhibit this wide range of values, then doesn’t that throw a wrench into Catholic teaching on sex, gender, and marriage?**

Doesn’t this also add ammunition to the idea that Catholic teaching is losing relevance in modern society, because the Catholic Church, with its insistence on upholding tradition, becomes hostage to its doctrines and cannot change according to what we now know scientifically?
The way I see it, only thing we can verify is that people are born with a penis, a vagina and a small percentage with hard to determine characteristics and perhaps even some chromosome anomalies.

Just as we don’t say that since there are disabled people born without a hand, that there is another form of human that does not have a hand, I don’t think saying that gender is not binary is correct.

There is only male and female and there are those born with anomalies. They just have a cross to bear. They are not a different gender.

Anyway, from a chromosome perspective, if you have a Y, you are male. If you only have X, then you are female. That seems like a easy way to go about it.

What we have done instead is just ask people to wonder who they might be. That is just imagination and there is no empirical proof to think they are what they claim to be anyway.
 
SP,

Since you arrived at this thread you have been on a journey to rationalize a belief…
Hi everyone. Just stumbled here recently, and thought Id try it out. I’m a very independent thinker who loves debate! for me right vs left is meaningless, it’s wright vs wrong thats important.
You declare yourself to look for what is right and wrong and that is important.
For those who don’t like the new name of the diagnonis in the new DSM. They are puting the disorder in the right place, Between mind and body, instead of with in the mind itself.
You declare that the DSM puts Gender Dysphoria between mind and body where it belongs and yet when asked what causes you to believe what your dysphoria you say it is based on “thinking”. You deny in your posting what it is you said you belief. This registers confusion.
Yes one can have a female brain where the rest of the bady is male. Which makes life for such a personuncomfortable more often than not.
There is not now or never has been any Pathologic study to substantiate this claim. This belief is a fallacy of interpretation of indirect studies that are not diagnostic and should cause a Physician to say…that is just an observation and not fact. You accept this as fact and are ready to be castrated based on false reasoning.
The look different side by side and when a brain scan is done they scan differently from eachother. I think you need to read up on these things things before you spread your incorrect opinion on them.
Brain scans are not diagnostic in this regard and do not and should not substantiate your belief.
Ok then, lets not do surgery to fix cleft pallettes, afterall it’s just a cosmetic condition. Their innerself can grow from not looking like everyone else. Also looking inward rather that outword for beauty. No we fix it with surgery. And to prevent inner anguish Gender confirming is legitimate too.
Cleft Pallets are fixed because it involves speech and dentition and eating and it is not cosmetic.
I don’t call making the bodys sex to match the gender of the brain mutilation. There is even A "secret’ Vatican document that allows it some of the time, that Im sure some here know about. When the church has a Galeleo syndrome going on Im not going to be a part of it, The church should study the science they are judgiing more, before they render and stance on it. I bet my 34 years of study of transsexualism is circles around the amount the Holysee has studied it.
The secret document has no evidence of existing. What you are referencing is comments about an interview. These comments are not fact and you base your belief on a false assumption. I don’t doubt that the Vatican approves surgery for children with intersex problems but not for Gender Dysphoria.
I get things mixed up know and then. I have a condition called aspergers. I know what Im talking about on the subject I know about< but boo boo on other sebjects from time to time.
Your Aspergers is amenable to behavior modification and medication for depression and you should know that yet you refuse to accept that behavior modification and medication may help you discard the notion of Gender dysphoria.
The Catholic church has made mistakes before. Galileo rings a bell on that one. Shuffling priests on account of sex abuse is another. Booting Jews out of Spain wasn’t a winner of an idea either. So yes the church can be wrong sometimes! The church is run by lots of men who can be fallable at times. You don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Your looking for loopholes in Catholic thinking is rationalizing your desire to believe that it is Ok to be Gender Dysphoric.
And it is well documented than conversion therapy can cause my psychological problems to the point where there are localities outlawing it.
This is not well documented. You have been brainwashed by the APA propaganda and you pose yourself as studied in the field. Anyone that accepts this propaganda is suspect for the ability to discern the truth.
DNA doesnt guarentee anything. There are females born with xy chromesomes and males born with xx chromesomes. That may explain a few things itself
There is chresome mosaic disorder which a person can have both xx and xy chromesomes and sometimes xxy also. so maybe neither male nor female!
By the way I have studied this subject for over a 1/3rd of a century now, so I have a right to be considered a lay authority on it.
Your wrong. Read your biology book. By the way not all xx are born female neither are all xys born male. Nature isn’t perfect. XX and XY are not all the chromesome possibilities either. I have a neice who is XO and a friend who is XXY.
Your studies have not been done to discern the truth, they have been done to rationalize and accept a belief.

Unless you have DNA abnormalities, none of this applies to you. Your study unlike my study is unsupervised and directed towards rationalizing a belief rather than judging rationally.

CONTINUED
 
CONTINUED and COMPLETED
A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome’s Gregorian University.
In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal and has been consulted by the doctrinal congregation on specific cases involving transsexualism and hermaphroditism.
The priest, citing confidentiality rules, declined to speak on the record to Catholic News Service for this story.
The Vatican document’s specific points include:
– An analysis of the moral licitness of “sex-change” operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will “cure” the patient’s internal turmoil.
This is all heresay and is not part of the interview. It is comments that do not have substantiation.
How Is Asperger’s Syndrome Treated?
There currently is no cure for Asperger’s syndrome, but treatment may improve functioning and reduce undesirable behaviors. Treatment may include a combination of the following:
• Special education: Education that is structured to meet the child’s unique educational needs.
• Behavior modification: This includes strategies for supporting positive behavior and decreasing problem behaviors.
• Speech, physical, or occupational therapy: These therapies are designed to increase the child’s functional abilities.
• Medication: There are no medications to treat Asperger’s syndrome itself, but drugs may be used to treat specific symptoms, such as anxiety, depression, hyperactivity, and obsessive-compulsive behavior.
You have Aspergers, then you know and accept that Behavior Modification is possible and that depression is also possible yet you deny that Gender Dysphoria is not amenable to Behavior modification and ascribe your desire, wish, imagined female self to be the cause of your depression for which you consent…

To take harmful Hormones that may cause disease and death
To consent to castration of your testicles, removal of a penis and inversion

Your studies should be revisited…brains are brains and there is not study to prove Aspergers either…it is treated and note not just accepted…
 
SP,

Read what Fr. Saunders says…in no place does he condone surgery…

catholicherald.com/stories/Straight-Answers-The-Morality-of-Sex-Change-Operations,1997?sub_id=1997

He says this…
To destroy organs purposefully that are healthy and functioning, and to try to create imitation organs which will never have the genuineness and functioning of authentic organs is gross and lacks charity. Such surgery which purposefully destroys the bodily integrity of the person must be condemned.
There is no reference you can read that has the so called secret document that you latched on to to support your belief that as I read your rationalization needs to be revisited in light of fact not fancy.
 
CONTINUED and COMPLETED

This is all heresay and is not part of the interview. It is comments that do not have substantiation.

You have Aspergers, then you know and accept that Behavior Modification is possible and that depression is also possible yet you deny that Gender Dysphoria is not amenable to Behavior modification and ascribe your desire, wish, imagined female self to be the cause of your depression for which you consent…

To take harmful Hormones that may cause disease and death
To consent to castration of your testicles, removal of a penis and inversion

Your studies should be revisited…brains are brains and there is not study to prove Aspergers either…it is treated and note not just accepted…
The point of showing the article is that in the eyes of the church is that some sex changes are ok with the church. As far as my aspergers. While behavior modification is possible, there is no cure for it.
 
. As far as my aspergers. While behavior modification is possible, there is no cure for it.
SP,
The point of showing the article is that in the eyes of the church is that some sex changes are ok with the church
If you truly believe this then you are easily convinced of something that cannot be proved. You want to believe this, you accept that this is true…show me the document or it is nothing more than me telling you…

I heard that Homosexuals ate watermelon as children and that is why they sodomize…no proof, just a belief…and with that I would go through the world seeing watermelon believing it leads to Homosexuality…???:eek:
 
SP,

I did, as well as all of your past postings and although you have studied, what you have learned, is not consistent with fact.
The fact is, there is a paregraph saying that some sex changes are ok with the church. You have 2 sources from me showing that document with that line. After finding the 2 links today. Iv’e seen more than a 1/2 dozen sources of that document now, all worded exactly like eachother.:rolleyes: If you blow it off, then Ill blow off your resourses.🤷
 
The fact is, there is a paregraph saying that some sex changes are ok with the church. You have 2 sources from me showing that document with that line. After finding the 2 links today. Iv’e seen more than a 1/2 dozen sources of that document now, all worded exactly like eachother.:rolleyes: If you blow it off, then Ill blow off your resourses.🤷
SP,

I truly question your discenrment. The interview with Fr. Saunders is found as I posted…

The paragraph you reference is not supported by the interview with Fr. Saunders and is a stand alone statement that has no substantiaion in reality other than it is attached to the interview…

There is no source provided…show me the source…otherwise it remains fantasy

Blow off what you choose to blow off, until you provide the source with the document that clearly states what you want to believe it is not fact and is consistent with your understanding of brain scans.
 
SP,

I truly question your discenrment. The interview with Fr. Saunders is found as I posted…

The paragraph you reference is not supported by the interview with Fr. Saunders and is a stand alone statement that has no substantiaion in reality other than it is attached to the interview…

There is no source provided…show me the source…otherwise it remains fantasy

Blow off what you choose to blow off, until you provide the source with the document that clearly states what you want to believe it is not fact and is consistent with your understanding of brain scans.
I gave you my article, same thing from 2 very different sourses. You must be very paranoid to not trust it. 2 very different epole who dont know eachother saying the same thing is is good enough wittnes for the police to use. THeres no reason you can’t accept it in this case. That document shown twice to you has mostly things I as well as other tg;s don’t like in there except one paragraph. So theres no conspiracy going on here on my side of the issue. You wouldn’t accept it if the pope told you. There fact is the document exists, and you have now seen exerpts of it. I choose to accept it and realize there is need for improvement, but things could be worse. Even though it agrees with you more than me you choose to blow it off Those are the yolks folks!🤷
 
I gave you my article, same thing from 2 very different sourses. You must be very paranoid to not trust it. 2 very different epole who dont know eachother saying the same thing is is good enough wittnes for the police to use. THeres no reason you can’t accept it in this case. That document shown twice to you has mostly things I as well as other tg;s don’t like in there except one paragraph. So theres no conspiracy going on here on my side of the issue. You wouldn’t accept it if the pope told you. There fact is the document exists, and you have now seen exerpts of it. I choose to accept it and realize there is need for improvement, but things could be worse. Even though it agrees with you more than me you choose to blow it off Those are the yolks folks!🤷
SP,

This is not a police case. This is a news case. It is unsubstantiated statements like the one you accepted that Reparative Therapy is dangerous…that is not proven but it is stated. Where is the document that exists…

All we have is a news story…

Do we trust the Catechism to believe we should not allow castration and take deadly hormones or a magazine article that has no substantiation…to whom do we trust our genitals? I suppose that based on the lack of understanding of brain scans, genetics and cleft palate there is no telling who to trust.
 
SP,

This is not a police case. This is a news case. It is unsubstantiated statements like the one you accepted that Reparative Therapy is dangerous…that is not proven but it is stated. Where is the document that exists…

All we have is a news story…

Do we trust the Catechism to believe we should not allow castration and take deadly hormones or a magazine article that has no substantiation…to whom do we trust our genitals? I suppose that based on the lack of understanding of brain scans, genetics and cleft palate there is no telling who to trust.
I was making a camparison analagy. Be ready I am a compare and contrast machine, especially compare. Also, the catechism doesnt have any of what you aledge in it.
 
The point of showing the article is that** in the eyes of the church is that some sex changes are ok with the church**. As far as my aspergers. While behavior modification is possible, there is no cure for it.
Absolutely and unequivocally UNTRUE.

NO sex-mutilation surgery is OK with the Church. If medical treatments are effective for “intersexed” children, then those would fall under medical treatments, not sex-mutilation surgery.

You really are twisting things to suit your own beliefs, and this has nothing to do with the Church.

If our Church supported such things, it would have fallen long ago.
 
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