Does your parish give "pride of place" to Gregorian chant?

[OraLabora]

I think I just died and went to Heaven! We have a seminarian here for the summer. Today we were discussing incense and after hearing what he had to say I asked
“So, where do you stand on Gregorian Chant?”

“Come out into the church and I’ll show you.”

Once in the nave he chanted “Salve Regina”. I think I’m in love.

The solemn Salve Regina (the Benedictine version… there are subtle differences between the Benedictine, Cistercian and Roman versions), was the first chant I learned by heart and remains no doubt my favourite.

I am waiting patiently for Ordinary Time to return so I can include it in my Compline liturgy again

 

[Newbie2]

Well the topic here is giving Gregorian chant the council-specified “pride of place.” It’s not going “all latin” in the music, much less in the rest of the Mass. Nobody other than a fanatic would suggest “pride of place” means that every Mass in a parish needs to be all Gregorian chant.

I’ll bet there are a few on the CAF that would qualify.

A few chants here or there wouldn’t cause a problem, methinks, as would an extreme latinization makeover.

 

[Phemie]

The solemn Salve Regina (the Benedictine version… there are subtle differences between the Benedictine, Cistercian and Roman versions), was the first chant I learned by heart and remains no doubt my favourite.

I am waiting patiently for Ordinary Time to return so I can include it in my Compline liturgy again

I don’t know much about chant other than to know I love it so I couldn’t tell you which version he chanted by heart but I had tears in my eyes when he finished.

He’s big on progressive solemnity and said you can judge a parish by how often they have scheduled Confession, daily Mass and Adoration. We fall short on the Confession level.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Our parish has had a Gregorian Chant choir at the Vigil Mass for a number of years. I just joined last year.

Here is a link to our website if your interested: comp.uark.edu/~rlee/chant.html

 

[ProVobis]

I do not like hymns in Latin–the words are gibberish to me, and the melodies are usually non-existent, which I personally have a hard time with due to the fact that I have lived all my life in the Western part of the world, in the U.S., and my ears are accustomed to regular melody and meter. During the few times a year when it is sung in our parish, I always sing (softly) the English translation.

Latin and Gregorian chant aren’t just preferences. They’re in the Vatican II documents to stay in the Mass. Not to mention the pipe organ.

 

[Brendan]

Latin and Gregorian chant aren’t just preferences. They’re in the Vatican II documents to stay in the Mass. Not to mention the pipe organ.

Correct.

One other thing to remember. In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued Jubilate Deo, a Missal of what he considered to be the “Minimum Repitoire of plainchant”. This Missal was sent to all the bishops along with an instructional letter from the CDWDS

Eminence, Excellency,

Our congregation has prepared a booklet entitled, “Jubilate Deo”, which contains a minimum selection of sacred chants. This was done in response to a desire which the Holy Father had frequently expressed, that all the faithful should know at least some Latin Gregorian chants, such as, for example, the “Gloria”, the “Credo”, the “Sanctus”, and the “Agnus Dei”.

It gives me great pleasure to send you a copy of it, as a personal gift from His Holiness, Pope Paul VI. May I take this opportunity of recommending to your pastoral solicitude this new initiative, whose purpose is to facilitate the observance of the recommendation of the Second Vatican Council "…steps must be taken to ensure that the faithful are able to chant together in Latin those parts of the ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them".

In effect, when the faithful gather together for prayer they manifest at once the diversity of a people drawn "from every tribe, language and nation (Ap. 5:9) and its unity in faith and charity. Their diversity is manifested in the present multiplicity of liturgical languages and in the vernacular chants which, in the context of one shared faith, give expression to each people’s religious sentiment in music drawn from its culture and traditions. On the other hand, their unity finds particularly apt and even sensible expression through the use of Latin Gregorian chant.

Down the centuries, Gregorian chant has accompanied liturgical celebrations in the Roman rite, has nourished men’s faith and has fostered their piety, while in the process achieving an artistic perfection which the Church rightly considers a patrimony of inestimable value and which the Council recognized as "the chant especially suited to the Roman liturgy."

One of the objectives of the liturgical reform is to promote community singing in assemblies of the faithful, so that they might the better express the festive, communal and fraternal character of liturgical celebrations. In effect, "the liturgical action becomes more dignified when it is accompanied by chant, when each minister fulfills his own role and the faithful also take part.

Those who are charged with responsibility for the liturgical reform are particularly anxious to achieve this difficult objective. To that end, the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship appeals once again, as they have often done in the past, for the proper development of singing by the faithful.

This was 1974 by the Pope who signed off on the all the Vatican II documents

 

[Alan55]

I have attended Catholic masses in numerous parishes in Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri, Oregon and California in the U.S., and Canada, France and Guyana (S. America) ex-U.S. Only one parish (in San Diego, CA) even occasionally did some Gregorian chant and most diocese-wide masses or masses at the Cathedrals in those locales had no chant whatsoever.

The notion that Gregorian chant is the standard for Catholic masses is fanciful, despite what the Vatican has said. Almost no one is doing it. It is a lovely relic, a curiosity, not the lived experience of Catholics. My guess is that almost as many people have attended mariachi, polka or jazz masses as masses with Gregorian chant.

 

[VociMike]

The notion that Gregorian chant is the standard for Catholic masses is fanciful, despite what the Vatican has said. Almost no one is doing it. It is a lovely relic, a curiosity, not the lived experience of Catholics. My guess is that almost as many people have attended mariachi, polka or jazz masses as masses with Gregorian chant.

So why do you think the American Church has turned its back on Vatican II in such blatant fashion? If you ask them they will say they support Vatican II wholeheartedly.

 

[roadsend]

I have attended Catholic masses in numerous parishes in Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri, Oregon and California in the U.S., and Canada, France and Guyana (S. America) ex-U.S. Only one parish (in San Diego, CA) even occasionally did some Gregorian chant and most diocese-wide masses or masses at the Cathedrals in those locales had no chant whatsoever.

The notion that Gregorian chant is the standard for Catholic masses is fanciful, despite what the Vatican has said. Almost no one is doing it. It is a lovely relic, a curiosity, not the lived experience of Catholics. My guess is that almost as many people have attended mariachi, polka or jazz masses as masses with Gregorian chant.

Probably very true.
Why do you suppose there has been such widespread disobedience to the Holy Father and the teachings of the Church?

 

[ProVobis]

This was 1974 by the Pope who signed off on the all the Vatican II documents

And don’t forget the beautiful Veterum Sapientia, written by the Pope just a few months before he convened Vatican II. Some say this set the ground rules for the council.

 

[VociMike]

Probably very true.
Why do you suppose there has been such widespread disobedience to the Holy Father and the teachings of the Church?

As inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Brendan]

The notion that Gregorian chant is the standard for Catholic masses is fanciful, despite what the Vatican has said. Almost no one is doing it. It is a lovely relic, a curiosity, not the lived experience of Catholics. My guess is that almost as many people have attended mariachi, polka or jazz masses as masses with Gregorian chant.

That is why the “Reform of the Reform” is going on. To correct what has been lacking in the implementation of Vatican II.

 

[Bluegoat]

Correct.

One other thing to remember. In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued Jubilate Deo, a Missal of what he considered to be the “Minimum Repitoire of plainchant”. This Missal was sent to all the bishops along with an instructional letter from the CDWDS

This was 1974 by the Pope who signed off on the all the Vatican II documents

I’m not saying that your quoting this here is out of place, but I have read this document, and I suspect that when it says minimum it may mean something more like “smallest amount possible”, rather than “smallest amount allowed”. (Like, A Little Latin Primer). I know the latter would seem more natural, but it doesn’t quite make sense the way they use it in the document, and it would make sense in Latin.

 

[Phemie]

I’m not saying that your quoting this here is out of place, but I have read this document, and I suspect that when it says minimum it may mean something more like “smallest amount possible”, rather than “smallest amount allowed”. (Like, A Little Latin Primer). I know the latter would seem more natural, but it doesn’t quite make sense the way they use it in the document, and it would make sense in Latin.

How do you come up with that interpretation? The CSL says that Latin is the language of the Church, that Gregorian Chant is the best choice for Mass and that the faithful should, at the very least, know all the responses & prayers in Latin. The Pope went so far as to put that booklet together so that we could all know these chants but nobody paid attention.

I’d never heard of Jubilate Deo until I started frequenting these boards. I looked it up, downloaded it and printed off a nice booklet (both in Gregorian and modern notation). I even looked up Gregorian notation on the net and am learning how it compares with modern notation. It can be done if someone like me, with less than a basic knowledge of music can come to figure it out.

 

[Bluegoat]

How do you come up with that interpretation? The CSL says that Latin is the language of the Church, that Gregorian Chant is the best choice for Mass and that the faithful should, at the very least, know all the responses & prayers in Latin. The Pope went so far as to put that booklet together so that we could all know these chants but nobody paid attention.

I’d never heard of Jubilate Deo until I started frequenting these boards. I looked it up, downloaded it and printed off a nice booklet (both in Gregorian and modern notation). I even looked up Gregorian notation on the net and am learning how it compares with modern notation. It can be done if someone like me, with less than a basic knowledge of music can come to figure it out.

I’m having trouble understanding how what you are saying relates to what I said.

The letter in question uses the phrase “Minimum Repertoire”. Many might understand that as meaning the minimum amount that should be present at each Mass, and I have seen people argue that it means that. But if you read the whole letter, that doesn’t seem to be the intent, and the phrase is also used slightly oddly at times.

But the letter makes much more sense if we think of it being “A Very Small Repertoire” without it being the “smallest allowed”. Like “A Very Small Book of Verses”. And while I haven’t seen the original untranslated document, it would make sense that slight shift in meaning that could happen from a translation point of view.

As for the rest, I never made any comment about whether Latin is appropriate or not, or the language of the Church, or denied that the Vatican would like it to be much more widespread. I was just commenting that I thought the phrase Minimum Repertoire" might understood in a way that was more forceful than what was intended.

 

[Phemie]

I’m having trouble understanding how what you are saying relates to what I said.

The letter in question uses the phrase “Minimum Repertoire”. Many might understand that as meaning the minimum amount that should be present at each Mass, and I have seen people argue that it means that. But if you read the whole letter, that doesn’t seem to be the intent, and the phrase is also used slightly oddly at times.

But the letter makes much more sense if we think of it being “A Very Small Repertoire” without it being the “smallest allowed”. Like “A Very Small Book of Verses”. And while I haven’t seen the original untranslated document, it would make sense that slight shift in meaning that could happen from a translation point of view.

As for the rest, I never made any comment about whether Latin is appropriate or not, or the language of the Church, or denied that the Vatican would like it to be much more widespread. I was just commenting that I thought the phrase Minimum Repertoire" might understood in a way that was more forceful than what was intended.

The Church doesn’t command a specific amount of Latin or Chant at any given Mass.

But the Church does teach that we should know all the Mass responses in Latin and that’s what 1974’s Jubilate Deo set out to help us do. Any self-respecting Catholic choir should know everything in the 1974 edition by heart because that’s the core repertoire of Mass chants.

Compared to the Graduale Romanum, the Church’s 900+ page official book for the choir and the Graduale Simplex (~500 pages), its official book for use in smaller churches, Jubilate Deo is a piece of cake with one simple setting for each part of the Mass and a few hymns.

 

[Bluegoat]

The Church doesn’t command a specific amount of Latin or Chant at any given Mass.

But the Church does teach that we should know all the Mass responses in Latin and that’s what 1974’s Jubilate Deo set out to help us do. Any self-respecting Catholic choir should know everything in the 1974 edition by heart because that’s the core repertoire of Mass chants.

Compared to the Graduale Romanum, the Church’s 900+ page official book for the choir and the Graduale Simplex (~500 pages), its official book for use in smaller churches, Jubilate Deo is a piece of cake with one simple setting for each part of the Mass and a few hymns.

I think we are probably in agreement then. And it would be idea as a goal for churches that have no Latin to work toward, very doable I think as long as there is a choir. It is always more difficult when there is no choir or musicians at all, but even then it could be managed in most cases.

 

[Brendan]

I’m having trouble understanding how what you are saying relates to what I said…

It context, it means that the faithful should know and be able to sing the chants published and listed in the letter ( Gloria", the “Credo”, the “Sanctus”, and the "Agnus Dei)

In other words, the faithful should know the chants published at a minimum. They are welcome and free to learn MORE than those, but should at least know those.

Does that make sense?

(And we regularly use the Jubilate Deo settings at our parish, they are easy to learn, my kids have picked it up after a few Masses)

 

[Phemie]

It context, it means that the faithful should know and be able to sing the chants published and listed in the letter ( Gloria", the “Credo”, the “Sanctus”, and the "Agnus Dei)

In other words, the faithful should know the chants published at a minimum. They are welcome and free to learn MORE than those, but should at least know those.

Does that make sense?

(And we regularly use the Jubilate Deo settings at our parish, they are easy to learn, my kids have picked it up after a few Masses)

Jubilate Deo is available online, formatted for printing in booklet form. One site even has mp3s of all the pieces included in JD.

Most of the choices available online are in Gregorian notation but one guy redid the Ordinary of the Mass in modern notation and has given us all the opportunity print out to a 2-sheet, 8-page booklet.

 

[pnewton]

No. Actually not. I am just calling a spade a spade. It is what it is.

Sigh. If I had a dollar for everybody who said their opinion is fact.

No, those who prefer vernacular are not lazy, greedy, indifferent. Lex orandi, lex credindi indeed. If your idea of faith and worship leads you to make uncharitable assumptions and hurl insults at Catholics different than you, perhaps your grasp of the Faith you get from the Latin is not as good as you think. This is not the way Christians treat other Christians.

The truth is still the truth,

Yes and opinion is opinion. I think 99% of the people here know the difference. Still, there are those that insist on claiming their opinion as fact. I can only speak for myself, and for me, your truth is a lie. When it comes to liturgy, I am anything but lazy greedy or indifferent. Trying to demonize others doesn’t work well here.