Does your parish give "pride of place" to Gregorian chant?

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Sigh. If I had a dollar for everybody who said their opinion is fact.

No, those who prefer vernacular are not lazy, greedy, indifferent. Lex orandi, lex credindi indeed. If your idea of faith and worship leads you to make uncharitable assumptions and hurl insults at Catholics different than you, perhaps your grasp of the Faith you get from the Latin is not as good as you think. This is not the way Christians treat other Christians.

Yes and opinion is opinion. I think 99% of the people here know the difference. Still, there are those that insist on claiming their opinion as fact. I can only speak for myself, and for me, your truth is a lie. When it comes to liturgy, I am anything but lazy greedy or indifferent. Trying to demonize others doesn’t work well here.
Before you continue to put words in my mouth, you might want to actually read my above posts and see who or what I was referring to in my earlier posts.
Greedy folks out there are making lots of money by steering folks away from our Traditional Sacred Music.
You may not like it. You may not realize it is going on.
and
I haven’t got a clue if you, personally, are in that category or not.
As for the other two terms, read what I actually said.
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn’t fit, stop putting words in my mouth.
 
those who prefer vernacular are not lazy, greedy, indifferent. Lex orandi, lex credindi
No, but they shouldn’t be slamming the official language of the Church and its doctrines and its treasures either. Not to mention the language and its alphabet that helped build Western civilization in the first place.
 
Probably very true.
Why do you suppose there has been such widespread disobedience to the Holy Father and the teachings of the Church?
I would suggest reading the rest of this thread, especially the early posts.

It’s not “disobedience,” it’s ignorance of the techniques and literature.

I’m a pianist, a good one. I don’t teach singing and I don’t sing that well myself, although I sing correctly. I have a pretty good knowledge of piano literature, but little to no knowledge of sacred choral literature, and absolutely no knowledge of Gregorian chant literature. When various chants/pieces are mentioned in this thread, I have no idea what anyone is talking about.

Yes, of course I can google it. But looking up pieces of chant and knowing what to do with them once I find them is not realistic. Besides, I am just a pianist. I am not in the position of authority to take over the parish music program and totally re-do it. There is another person in that position, and he is actually not very knowledgeable about liturgy or music. He’s just an organist and that’s it. We’re actually lucky to have him–we went for almost a year with only a few pianists (including me) subbing at Masses and many Masses had no music and the people hated it!

In an earlier post, I described my parish of over 7000 fairly well-off people, and not ONE musician who knows how to do chant, especially Gregorian chant. The few musicians who might have had the training/knowledge to do chant and train others to do it departed after our fantastic organist came out as openly gay and looking to adopt a child along with his partner. He was fired, and in a show of solidarity, most of the “good” musicians in the parish left and made a public show of it. It was a huge scandal in our city, and many musicians openly express their disgust with our parish and diocese. The church is on the American Guild of Organists blacklist, and no organist in the guild will play at our parish, and most musicians who have any skill will NOT sing or teach at our church for a Mass. For a paid concert, yes. But even then, we have a hard time recruiting “good” musicians. I’m probably their best, and that’s pretty sad!

Frankly, I’m glad that the church cleaned house and fired the organist. It was a huge scandal in our city, and one that I believe was orchestrated by certain gay advocacy groups. I believe our diocese and our parish did the right thing, the moral thing, to fire the organist. But we sacrificed “good” music and probably will struggle for a long time just to get people who are able to play and sing the very simple songs in the OCP hymnal. It is unrealistic to expect that our parish will begin to include Latin chant in our Masses anytime soon. Perhaps in a few decades, when all the people involved with the gay scandal are dead. Or if we get a parochial vicar who is talented musically and has a good working knowledge of chant and most importantly, is able to TEACH people chant, not just sing it at them during random Masses.

I am really wondering how many other Catholic parishes also have trouble getting really good musicians because of the homosexual issues. MANY “good,” well-trained and educated musicians are either gay or very sympathetic to gay issues, and many are in complete and vocal disagreement with the Catholic Church’s stand against gay marriage. Just this weekend, my daughter’s graduation at St. Louis University was marred by a protest; the speaker has been known to speak out against gay marriage, and the “rainbow” group showed up at the graduation.

This issue could be causing the majority of “good” musicians to stay away from the Catholic Church, and THIS could be the major reason why you are not seeing a great deal of Gregorian chant. If there are no classically-trained musicians who are knowledgeable about Gregorian chant, you won’t be hearing any Gregorian chant in your parish, and it does you no good to complain about it. Tell the musicians in your community.

Always keep in mind that if the majority age of a congregation is 50 or younger, and if there is a large contingent of converts, these people did NOT grow up with chant or any kind of traditional music, and have no knowledge of how to perform chant or teach others.

If the Catholic Church wants parishes in the U.S. to institute Gregorian chant regularly in the Masses, she must create some kind of systematic plan to introduce Gregorian chant to the congregations and teach them how to do it correctly. Considering the very poor compliance with the rule to not use the Name “Yahweh” during Mass mainly due to wretchedly-poor communication of this dictum to the local parish music/liturgy directors, I would say that it’s not likely that the Catholic Church will have any organized and logical and well-communicated plan to institute Gregorian chant anytime soon, and therefore most parishes in the U.S. will continue to use hymns, mainly hymns from the readily-available and easy-to-play and sing OCP publications. **If you don’t like that, then stop complaining about it and criticizing all of us who really do love English hymns and take some action to CHANGE IT! The best way to do this, IMO, is to raise up your children to love and learn classical and traditional sacred music, then send them to a college that will train them in educating others, and then encourage them to take on prominent roles in local parishes in the liturgy. **

It’s easy to criticize others like me and accuse us of disobedience to the Church. It’s a lot harder to work actively to correct matters. At least benedictgal is actively working to effect changes in not only her local parish, but across the U.S. I respect this. I have a harder time respecting those who simply pine for the “good old days.” Well, get hopping. Do something to bring them back.
 
Yes, of course I can google it. But looking up pieces of chant and knowing what to do with them once I find them is not realistic.
That is why mp3’s are published too. See my link above.

Are you HONESTLY trying to tell us that a musically competent person, given music in modern notation and mp3’s cannot teach this music to a congregation without having to go to ‘chant school’?
If the Catholic Church wants parishes in the U.S. to institute Gregorian chant regularly in the Masses, she must create some kind of systematic plan to introduce Gregorian chant to the congregations and teach them how to do it correctly.
What ‘systematic plan’ did the Church have to introduce the OCP music?
 
What ‘systematic plan’ did the Church have to introduce the OCP music?
Is this really a fair question though? Since OCP is generally a monster, whatever processes or lack thereof that went into its creation should perhaps be avoided. If the CC would like to see more chant in parish churches, it seems logical that they should make available resourses, and perhaps impose tasks or specific guidelines.

That being said, I think there are things parishes could do on their own. Getting rid of OCP and beginning to use more substantial hymns in appropriate seasons would be a good start. I suspect better music in whatever form would be a good start to getting people to understand what is appropriate to the Mass. And it would save some money that could be spent on some other musical projects.
 
Yes, of course I can google it. But looking up pieces of chant and knowing what to do with them once I find them is not realistic.
It’s not realistic to get a copy of e.g. the Kyrie from Jubilate Deo (available in neume and modern notations, online or through publishers), learn it via the printed music or online audio/video, and sing it in place of the “Lord have mercy”? We’re talking about learning to sing SIX WORDS here, and three of them are repeats! And the Agnus Dei and Sanctus are only marginally more complicated. Show me one parish music director in the entire country who couldn’t figure out how to do this, if they really wanted to do it, and I’ll show you a music director who’s been taking a salary under false pretenses.
 
It’s not realistic to get a copy of e.g. the Kyrie from Jubilate Deo (available in neume and modern notations, online or through publishers), learn it via the printed music or online audio/video, and sing it in place of the “Lord have mercy”? We’re talking about learning to sing SIX WORDS here, and three of them are repeats! And the Agnus Dei and Sanctus are only marginally more complicated. Show me one parish music director in the entire country who couldn’t figure out how to do this, if they really wanted to do it, and I’ll show you a music director who’s been taking a salary under false pretenses.
👍 👍 👍

"For they considered not the miracle of the loaves: for their heart was hardened” (Mark 6:52).
 
That is why mp3’s are published too. See my link above.

Are you HONESTLY trying to tell us that a musically competent person, given music in modern notation and mp3’s cannot teach this music to a congregation without having to go to ‘chant school’?

What ‘systematic plan’ did the Church have to introduce the OCP music?
Honestly? You want honest?

I don’t know what an mp3 is. Is it a little tape recording?

I know that there are little tape players that people wear at the gym. There are also ipods, which I don’t have and I don’t want because I seldom listen to recorded music except for a few rare exceptions (e.g., Susan Boyle)

I am completely serious here. I am NOT making a joke or being sarcastic.

Seriously I’m still trying to learn how to answer my cell phone and how to place a call on my cell phone. (I would get the Jitterbug, but my husband says that Consumer Reports claims the Jitterbug doesn’t have good reception. :()

Of course a musically competent person could probably use modern notation and electronic gizmos to teach. But please read over my posts–there ARE no, nada, zip-petootie musically-competent people in our parish! They’ve all left because of the gay scandal or because they want to be paid for their musical skills.

Except me! I’m still there. But I think you might be getting the idea–and you’re right!–that even though I can play the piano very well, I can’t do much of anything else with music! Sorry. (I also can’t use an electronic keyboard in any way other than to turn it on and start playing it. I can’t do anything with the settings and I have no idea what “midi” is.)

If you know a musically-competent person who is searching for a musically-incompetent parish, well, send them our way. But I’m guessing that thousands of other musically-incompetent parishes are also looking for musically-competent people! (I visited a parish in St. Louis this weekend that could also use a musically-competent person!)

As for your question about introducing OCP, don’t ask me! How would I know?! Up until a few years ago, I was happily evangelical Protestant and doing Praise and Worship music. When I first started attending Mass, I assumed that the lovely and melodic ballads (Here I Am Lord, Gather Us In, etc.) that so many of you disparage so colorfully ARE Catholic music–modern Catholic music. Silly me. I know this much–these ballads and songs aren’t Protestant music, even though some of you seem to have the idea (wrong) that they are Protestant. Not in any Protestant church I ever sat in.

I could see that there were also traditional Catholic hymns in the Catholic hymnal–interestingly, THESE are the hymns that I had seen in my Protestant hymnals. So I was glad whenever they sang these hymns because I knew them from my Protestant days!

Brendan, I may not understand modern toys, but I am a very organized person, and I don’t think I should be criticized because I am asking for a “plan” to introduce ancient music back into the Mass. Without a plan, it won’t happen. All the wishes of all the traditional Catholics in the U.S. aren’t going to just come true. Unless the Holy Spirit does a miracle, people aren’t going to suddenly start singing in chant.

So what’s your plan? How do YOU think it should happen with no musically-knowledgeable people available in most parishes, and very few priests who have the education and ability to be able to teach their parishioners Gregorian chant? (Priests don’t exactly have lots of spare time.)

Actually, we do have a music teacher who helps out in the parish, and she is very knowledgeable. But for some reason, she doesn’t teach chant. Not sure why. She’s not in a position to do so, as she is just a sub pianist/organist, as I am. But at least she can sing well.

But don’t you see? We subs can’t just step up and say, “Let’s do it this way.” There is someone else in that position and we can’t usurp his authority.

If it makes you feel any better, if I were the king of the forrrrest, or at least the Music Director, I WOULD do some serious studying and seek out the conductor of the schola at the TLM parish in our city, and learn all about chant, and I would do whatever was necessary to lure some competent singer back to our parish (it would probably involve much money), and I WOULD try to gradually introduce various Gregorian chants into some of the Masses, as long as the priests gave their blessing on this effort. I believe in a variety of music, and my only complaint with our parish is that there is a decided lack of energy in ALL the music except for the Life Teen music. No one makes much effort.

But I’m not king of the forest.
 
It’s not realistic to get a copy of e.g. the Kyrie from Jubilate Deo (available in neume and modern notations, online or through publishers), learn it via the printed music or online audio/video, and sing it in place of the “Lord have mercy”? We’re talking about learning to sing SIX WORDS here, and three of them are repeats! And the Agnus Dei and Sanctus are only marginally more complicated. Show me one parish music director in the entire country who couldn’t figure out how to do this, if they really wanted to do it, and I’ll show you a music director who’s been taking a salary under false pretenses.
I am a pianist. I am not in the position to make this happen.

I can tell the current Music Director at our parish, and I HAVE mentioned these things to him. He has no clue what I’m talking about.

When I mentioned it to him, he did NOT know the dictum about not using “Yahweh” in the Mass. He hadn’t heard of that.

I don’t think he knows that there is a new translation of the Mass coming out soon.

I’m not even sure he completely understands some of the rubrics, but I’m probably being uncharitable. Sometimes he improvises cool jazz licks during the Communion. Even I find this somewhat unnerving, as I’m pretty certain that the rubrics state something to the effect of “all music in the Mass should fit with the liturgy.” (Something like that.) To me, this means that I don’t ad lib meaningless chords. If I’m going to play something instrumental as a meditation, I will play a real hymn, not ad libs and improvisations. But maybe he’s in the right and I’m being too rigid.

You see, he’s just an organist. He’s not really a “Music Director.” He holds that position and is paid for it, but he has no idea of how to establish a comprehensive church music program. He organizes the cantors so that there is someone at every Mass (and sometimes that doesn’t happen). He finds sub pianists when he is out of town.

He has a full-time job in a school, so this “Music Director” thing is just a side gig.

And it’s not like our Church had much choice. If they had not gotten this gentleman, we would have no one who plays the organ, and that’s a fine howdy-do for a funeral, isn’t it?

The monsigneur (sorry about the spelling) actually asked me if I was interested, but I don’t feel that I have the skills needed to be a Music Director of a 7000 person parish.

Anyway, I know I sound like I have a million excuses. But what I hear some of you saying is that this Gregorian chant thing should just happen so easily, and I think you’re wrong! I think there have to be some nuts and bolts in place, and a skilled person has to put them there.

I personally find it frustrating when some of you take such a critical tone towards parishes that don’t use any Gregorian chant and don’t give it “pride of place.” It truly isn’t just a snap and a breeze to get going.

And I find it discouraging as a musician who does the best I can with the music that I am assigned. I happen to love the OCP songs and I play them well. It really makes me feel like worthless scum that if any of you happened to visit the parish on a Sunday that I was playing for Mass, you would sit in your pew and condemn me and my fellow parishioners and possibly even my priests and bishop because we’re singing those “banal Protestant songs” or those "HaugenHaz hootenannies instead of singing what the Church is clearly commanding us that we should be singing. Well, it ain’t that easy, people. It’s easy to complain, but it’s not so easy to do the work to get things going.
 
I personally find it frustrating when some of you take such a critical tone towards parishes that don’t use any Gregorian chant and don’t give it “pride of place.” It truly isn’t just a snap and a breeze to get going.
Well, it’s been 47 years since Sacrosanctum Concillium was released. 36 years since Jubilate Deo was released. And probably 99.9% of all parishes don’t obey Vatican II by attempting to give Gregorian chant pride of place, within their means and abilities. How long will be long enough?

And that also raises the question, why does it have to “get going” at all? Why was it lost in the first place?
 
Well, it’s been 48 years since Sacrosanctum Concillium was released. 36 years since Jubilate Deo was released. And probably 99.9% of all parishes don’t obey Vatican II by attempting to give Gregorian chant pride of place, within their means and abilities. How long will be long enough?

And that also raises the question, why does it have to “get going” at all? Why was it lost in the first place?
It was lost because people were gung-ho about experimentation immediately after the Council, being inebriated on the alleged Spirit of Vatican II without so much as taking the time to digest what the authoritative documents actually said. If anything, the new stuff should be conforming to Gregorian standards and not the other way around.

The good news in all of this is that once the new translations are in place, things will, hopefully, change. The ICEL settings appear to be in simple chant notation mode. The Gloria is straight-through, which is a great thing. We don’t have to go through endless responsorials which tend to drag out this beautiful prayer. The tunes for the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation and the Agnus Dei are simple. It’s almost as though ICEL took Jubilate Deo and set it to English. What is even better is that these settings will now be incorporated into the actual Roman Missal itself.

OCP, and, to a certain extent, GIA, seems to be infected with the allged Spirit of Vatican II, paying little to no attention to what the documents actually said. Many of the settings for the parts of the Mass that the publishing houses use are tawdry, banal and lack any of the beauty and majesty worth of the dignity of the Mass. Hurd, Haugen, the St. Louis Jesuits, Haas and Kolar come to mind.

It is tiring to run the same old argument that we can’t learn this stuff. This is an entirely false notion. The chant modes are fairly simple and if the children’s choir at our Cathedral could sing them (and these youngsters are not classically trained), it should not take that much of a leap for the adults to follow.
 
Cat,

Are you trying to say that your parish only uses the same hymns over and over again, since no one is capable of teaching the congregation new ones?

If given the music in modern notation ( pg 38 of the following document)
musicasacra.com/books/chantsofchurch_modern.pdf

And someone singing it for you
youtube.com/watch?v=4x-232y-j-4&feature=related

You could not start doing this yourself and let others follow?.

All my children (at least the ones above 2) know the Gloria above. How did they learn it? It is sung at every Sunday Mass.

When our family joined the parish, did we ask if someone who was ‘chant trained’ to teach us? We just follow along with what everyone else was singing. The words were in the missal, but I (like most people) do not read music, either chant or modern. We just (like most people in the pews) just pick up the tune as it is sung.
 
I’m not even sure what “pride of place” means?
“Gregorian chant…it should be given (obtineat) pride (principem) of place (proprium) in liturgical services…”

obtineat: get hold of; maintain; obtain; hold fast, occupy; prevail

principem: first, foremost, leading, chief, front; earliest, original; most necessary;

proprium: own, very own; individual; special, particular, characteristic;

If for example one wanted to learn to chant the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) you can find the music in modern notation plus pronounciaitons and sung and midi recordings of the chants legally for free on the internet. And so if you don’t know the Gregorian Chants of the Mass this is one way to learn some of them. You just need to be good with the old search engine. A great link to Jubilate Deo was posted earlier adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

**Vat II also said **- Sacrosanctum Concilium
  1. The treasure of **sacred **music is to be preserved and fostered with great care.
36.1 the use of the **Latin **language is to be preserved in the Latin rites

54 Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them

#112 The musical tradition of the universal Church is a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than that of any other art from.

“…**the faithful ****can be taught **to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also **to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant **(Sacramentum Caritatis, #62 – Pope Benedict XVI).”

“…In the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, however, **preference should be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those to be sung by the priest or the deacon or the lector, with the people responding, **or by the priest and people together. All other things being equal, **Gregorian chant **holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy (General Instruction on the Roman Missal #40, 41).”
 
Our choir started sing the simpler parts of the Jubilate Deo begining last advent (Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) last Advent. We sang them through Advent and Christmas and the Ordinary time before Lent. Then our parish priest asked us to start singing the “old” mass parts again. I was stunned speechless! :eek:
 
Our choir started sing the simpler parts of the Jubilate Deo begining last advent (Kyrie, Sanctus, Agnus Dei) last Advent. We sang them through Advent and Christmas and the Ordinary time before Lent. Then our parish priest asked us to start singing the “old” mass parts again. I was stunned speechless! :eek:
You mean he didn’t like the Greek and Latin and wanted you to return to the English Mass settings you’d been using before?

It’s probably one of two things: he’s one of those who believes that this went out with Vat. II and he’s had enough of what he considers a trip down memory lane or he got a lot of complaints and figures it’s easier to go back to the previous settings than to bother explaining the whys and wherefores of chant.
 
It is also possible that his bishop gave him a subtle or not so subtle hint expressing his disapproval.
It can be difficult for a pastor to go against the wishes of the guy who signs his paycheck or who in the future will or will not sign his retirement check.
 
Cat,

Are you trying to say that your parish only uses the same hymns over and over again, since no one is capable of teaching the congregation new ones?

If given the music in modern notation ( pg 38 of the following document)
musicasacra.com/books/chantsofchurch_modern.pdf

And someone singing it for you
youtube.com/watch?v=4x-232y-j-4&feature=related

You could not start doing this yourself and let others follow?.

All my children (at least the ones above 2) know the Gloria above. How did they learn it? It is sung at every Sunday Mass.

When our family joined the parish, did we ask if someone who was ‘chant trained’ to teach us? We just follow along with what everyone else was singing. The words were in the missal, but I (like most people) do not read music, either chant or modern. We just (like most people in the pews) just pick up the tune as it is sung.
Sure, I could start singing it. And they would cart me out the door and take me straight to the Psych floor at the hospital because apparently I haven’t made it clear-I am just a pianist. I have no right whatsoever to start singing a Latin chant during a Mass in our parish.

That is the job of the Music Director, not me, not you, and not anyone in the congregation. It has to come from the Music Director, who would receive his directions from the priests.

I am not a choir director or a music teacher. I am a pianist. I can sing, but not well, not loud, and certainly not well enough to teach anyone anything. Having never learned Gregorian chant from anyone knowledgeable, I would have NO IDEA of the techniques that are necessary to sing it correctly. Frankly, it would reek and probably cause St. Gregory himself to cry out from heaven, “Please, stop. Go back to singing folk music.”

I am not the pianist for the sanctuary choir, which doesn’t meet during the summer, BTW. The pianist for this choir is a music teacher and a good singer, and SHE is the one who selects the music that the choir will sing during Mass. I am NOT the one. I am not even in the choir, as I work two Sundays a month (hospital) and cannot be involved with any of the Sunday morning Masses.

For some reason, the choir director has not chosen to do Gregorian chant with the sanctuary choir. As she is a fairly knowledgeable person and has been a faithful member of the parish for many decades, I can only surmise that she knows more than you or I about what the choir is capable of and what she is capable of. She is a good Catholic, not a “cafeteria Catholic.”

There is no choir for the Saturday vigil Masses. There is a cantor.

**I am not in charge of determining what will be sung at the Mass. That is the job of the Music Director. ** I can make suggestions, but to be honest, I think he would rightfully laugh his head off if I were to suggest having the Saturday evening cantors learn Gregorian chants and teach them to the congregation. The cantors have a hard time doing the simple Psalms in our missallette (I think they’re called “plainchant,” and they are uuuugly! When I play these Psalms for them, I have to hammer out the notes that they are supposed to be singing, and they still miss most of them. These Psalms are totally amelodic and I will say frankly that I hate them. I love the words, but hate the music, and so do most of the cantors.).

I can’t even imagine the cantors learning and then actually singing Gregorian chant with no accompaniment. Most of the people in our congregation can’t even get through Amazing Grace.

So back at you–WHO exactly did you have in mind to sing the chants and teach them to the congregation? And WHEN exactly would you suggest that this person(s) teach these chants to the congregation?

You see, we must be practical.
 
It is also possible that his bishop gave him a subtle or not so subtle hint expressing his disapproval.
It can be difficult for a pastor to go against the wishes of the guy who signs his paycheck or who in the future will or will not sign his retirement check.
The Bishop sings the paycheques?? Our priests are paid by the parish in which they work, not by the diocese, so they don’t have that excuse.
 
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