Does your parish give "pride of place" to Gregorian chant?

[boatbearer]

Pride of place is giving the best seat in the house to the most important gest or person. Where the Queen would sit at an official function.

So it is saying that Gregorian chant has a special place, even above other kinds of music, in the Latin rite liturgy - it’s the queen of Latin Rite music, so to speak, and ought to be treated as such.

OK, fair enough so what does that mean? That it should be used exclusively in place of other types of music? 51%? “Mostly?” At all very solemn Masses?

 

[pnewton]

We have started using Jubilate Deo in certain key Masses. However, I would not one thing from the statement above. It state a big caveat, “other things being equal” and the place of pride is in the liturgy, not each Mass or each parish individually

 

[VociMike]

We have started using Jubilate Deo in certain key Masses. However, I would not one thing from the statement above. It state a big caveat, “other things being equal” and the place of pride is in the liturgy, not each Mass or each parish individually

But until “other things being equal” is defined by the Church, we have no real idea what it means. All we know is that every pope since Vatican II has promoted Gregorian chant, so that tells me that they didn’t consider “all things being equal” as being a generally-applicable out or escape clause. And note the sentence that follows:

The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

So we have the amazing suggestion that, if “other things being equal” rules out Gregorian chant in a particular instance, sacred polyphony is especially to be considered as a substitute! That flies in the face of any suggestion that “other things being equal” lets one off the hook if Gregorian chant is “too hard” or “in Latin” or “not familiar”. As I say, a fascinating hint as to what “other things being equal” does NOT mean.

 

[pnewton]

But until “other things being equal” is defined by the Church, we have no real idea what it means.

Exactly. So the principle of subsidiarity applies. Thus, much of the criticism based on personal understanding of laymen is not very relevant.

 

[Phemie]

Hmm, there was a rend in the space time continuum this morning.

First I thought I’d overslept by a week when the opening hymn was “Come Holy Spirit, Creator Blessed” but I was yanked back to the distant past when the recessional was Carey Landry’s “The Spirit is A-moving”.

Offertory was “Mary, Woman of Promise” and the Communion Hymn was “Seed, Scattered and Sown”.

Gloria was Carey Landry’s gutted version and the EP acclamations & Agnus Dei were new settings that nobody had ever heard before.

Would I prefer Gregorian Chant? Duh!

 

[corsair]

Roadsend,

I’m not sure where in Oregon you live but if you live anywhere near Portland, then you have Holy Rosary (Dominican) They have a latin OF Mass at 11:00am every Sunday and a Dominican low Mass at least once a month. Plus, on special feast days they do a Missa Cantata in the Dominican Rite. Periodically, a visiting priest will do a 1962 (EF) Mass. I have been to Pontifical Solemn High Masses there, too. Might also check out St. Birgitta’s. Think they still do a EF Mass once every Sunday.

 

[Brendan]

In a second line of thought; it might seem a bit awkward to attempt a proper Gregorian Chant during a non-Latin service!

Why? Our parish regually chants the Kyrie (in Greek), and the Gloria, Pater and Agnus Dei ( in Latin), while the rest of the Liturgy is in English.

Which is precisely what Vatican II asked for.

 

[Bob_Aliano]

In the churches I frequent the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, et al, are accompanied by the organ, piano or chamber orchestra regardless of which language is used, that is not Gregorian Chant as I remember it. When I sang as a youth we got a keying note at most while the chant was unaccompanied. The modern Gregorian Chants CDs I use for meditation and calming are occasionally accompanied by a very quiet flute. Perhaps I don’t understand what true Gregorian Chant is?

As for fitting a few Greek or Latin verses into a ceremony otherwise in English may feel good to some but to me it smacks of some elitist attempt to make those Mass parts more spiritual. The fact is that the best prayer is one in which those praying fully understand what they are saying, hardly the case with most of our congregation when “reciting” Latin or Greek phrases.

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, our parish does chant every week - especially when they do the Latin NO masses. But even for the English mass with choir, they will sometimes do the Gregorian chants in Latin. Everyone who has been attending mass there “participates” in the chanting. People just pick it up after a few Sundays, especially since we have the words and music on paper for us.

 

[Bluegoat]

In the churches I frequent the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, et al, are accompanied by the organ, piano or chamber orchestra regardless of which language is used, that is not Gregorian Chant as I remember it. When I sang as a youth we got a keying note at most while the chant was unaccompanied. The modern Gregorian Chants CDs I use for meditation and calming are occasionally accompanied by a very quiet flute. Perhaps I don’t understand what true Gregorian Chant is?

As for fitting a few Greek or Latin verses into a ceremony otherwise in English may feel good to some but to me it smacks of some elitist attempt to make those Mass parts more spiritual. The fact is that the best prayer is one in which those praying fully understand what they are saying, hardly the case with most of our congregation when “reciting” Latin or Greek phrases.

I’m Anglican, but we Anglicans have rather more experience is combining these things than Catholics do.

My parish choir sings the Kyrie, Sanctus, Annus Dei, and a communion motet in either polyphony or plainchant, in whatever language they were written in by the composer. Usually Latin (Greek for the Kryie obviously) but sometimes English. The translation is in the bulletin. THe rest of the service is in English, including the psalms and other parts of the liturgy that are sung in plainchant by the congregation.

It isn’t about sounding more spiritual - it’s about singing Palestrina’s beautiful Mass setting without butchering it.

 

[benedictgal]

Unfortunately, what holds pride of place in my parish is the banal and tawdry stuff from OCP. If I ever win the lotto, I would gladly donate the money to buy an organ and to send our choir director to a workshop on real sacred music instead of the training sponsored by OCP and the NPM.

 

[roadsend]

Roadsend,

I’m not sure where in Oregon you live but if you live anywhere near Portland, then you have Holy Rosary (Dominican) They have a latin OF Mass at 11:00am every Sunday and a Dominican low Mass at least once a month. Plus, on special feast days they do a Missa Cantata in the Dominican Rite. Periodically, a visiting priest will do a 1962 (EF) Mass. I have been to Pontifical Solemn High Masses there, too. Might also check out St. Birgitta’s. Think they still do a EF Mass once every Sunday.

Thank you Corsair.
We have been attending St. Birgitta’s and Holy Rosary whenever we can since the late '70s.
Unfortunately, either church is a seven to eight hour round trip, which pretty much limits us to a few times a year.
We get to one or the other as often as possible and find a great deal of spiritual satisfaction in their Masses where the rules of the Church are actually followed.
The fact that traditional, authentic Catholic music is actually sung in both churches is spiritually invigorating. It is a great feeling leaving church with the feeling that one has actually been to a Catholic Mass.
The last time ( August 2009) I tried to attend St. Birgitta’s Mass, there was a sign on the door to the effect that the 8:00 AM EF Mass had been moved to 3:30 PM for that Sunday. After having left the house between 4:00 and 5:00 AM, I was less than thrilled at the prospect of sitting around in Portland for several hours. I understand that since the AB expressed his opinion regarding the EF in his column (sentinel.org/node/7818) in the diocesan paper a while back, the availability of the EF has been a bit sporadic. This leaves the SSPX Masses as the only regularly offered Sunday morning EF Masses within a couple hundred mile radius.
There are hopes that they can get things better organized at St. Birgitta’s in the near future.

 

[Cat]

No.

Our parish is wealthy and large–over 7000 people. But in spite of the population and money, there are no musicians with the knowledge and ability to be able to sing Gregorian chant, and there are absolutely no musicians who have the knowledge and ability to TEACH chant.

I realize that this is quite a sweeping statement, but I believe it to be true. I know the musicians in our parish because I play piano, and my statement assessing the ability of our musicians to do chant is true. There may be musicians who are hiding their lamps under a bushel and refusing to “come out” and get involved with the Masses. But that doesn’t help the parish to add Gregorian chant to the Mass.

We have a “Music Director” but the gentlemen is not versatile. He doesn’t work with any of the choirs (traditional, children’s, or contemporary) and he seems to know nothing about choral or solo literature. He’s learning to accompany cantors and congregation on the organ, and he is learning to play the piano.

Most of the cantors in our parish do a very poor job singing the simple chant in the Responsorial Psalm, and I frankly wish that the Liturgy Director would find a Psalter that contains more melodious psalms so that the Psalms would be less grating to listen to. I think that the current Psalter frightens potential cantors away, as there are no melodies and the chants are extremely ugly, like listening to looooong rap.

For those who long for Gregorian chant in our city, the Oratory does daily Latin Mass and several Latin Masses on the weekend, and these include the Gregorian chant and polyphony. So anyone who wants it can hear it only a mile away from our parish. Perhaps that’s another reason why none of the parishes in our city are rushing to add Gregorian chant and ancient polyphony to the Mass–it’s available elsewhere. Any musicians who want to sing chant can attend this parish–it’s a real parish–and sing the ancient music of the Church.

There seems to be a great deal of resistance in our city’s parishes to ancient music in the Mass. People here, and that includes the teenagers and children, really seem to like the contemporary music (I say “contemporary” tongue in cheek, as much of it is almost 50 years old). This could be because our city is very close (driving distance) to Willowcreek and some of the best live contemporary Christian music in the United States.

It could also be that because there are quite a few converts from evangelicalism in our parishes, there is resistance to chant. Yes, some converts like it, but most, and I consider myself in that number, prefer traditional hymns in English, and some CCM. I honestly don’t like chant at all, and I’ve given it several good, honest attempts, listening to CDs. I know, it’s not about my preferences. But since the GIRM allows for other kinds of music, I am not in the wrong to seek out parishes that feature music that I like. At this point, it’s still OK according to the rubrics for Masses to include four hymns in English (or whatever the language is) and the responses in English (vernacular) in a traditional/contemporary style.

So mainly because of the lack of talent/ability of the musicians, I think it’s unlikely that we will see much Gregorian chant in any of the parishes other than at the Oratory. If the seminaries begin graduating priests who are also trained musicians, that could make a difference. as they might be able to train the musicians in the parishes. Of course, whether or not the congregations would tolerate it is another question. I honestly think that it would not go over well, and that many Catholics would head for parishes that feature hymns in English or Spanish rather than Gregorian chant. It would have to be introduced very gradually, with just a smidgeon in the Mass at first.

BTW, in case you’re wondering, our bishop has often expressed a desire to see more Gregorian chant and Latin in the Masses. But his saying so doesn’t make it happen. The trained musicians HAVE to be there for this to happen. He can wish all he wants, and I respect him and would gladly acquiese. But the musicians aren’t there.

One more thing that complicates our situation is an incident that occurred seven years ago. The one knowledgeable organist/musicians in the diocese was involved in a scandal involving homosexuality, and he was asked to leave by the diocese. Many, many of the classically-trained musicians and other trained, professional musicians left the Catholic churches in disgust. At the moment, the AGO has our parish on the blacklist–no organist in the guild is allowed to play in our church. Most of the really good musicians that I know in this area refuse to sing or play in the Catholic churches in our diocese, and they train their students to feel the same way. There is a LOT of social liberalism among the good musicians, and this means that we get the people like me–the musicians who can play or sing reasonably well, but are not teachers or professional performers. This has continued now for seven years, and IMO, it’s getting worse. The actual event that precipitated the blacklisting has developed “legendary” status, so that the facts are obscured and all most musicians know is that the Catholic Church is “anti-gay” and therefore, a “bad” place to go and sing or play. It’s very sad. I think that this is possibly one reason why our bishop doesn’t insist on Gregorian chant or other ancient forms of music–he’s a smart man and he knows that he can’t get blood out of a stone. I think he prefers to count his losses and accept that if he has musicians like me to work with–“Miss Gospel Piano”–well, that’s better than no music at all in the Mass. (I know that some of you prefer no music to contemporary music, but you are the exception–most people prefer some music, even if it’s bad music. I know I do.)

 

[Bluegoat]

I’ve noticed that a few people have mentioned they prefer English hymns to chant in the Mass, as a kind of either/or. In my parish we have the Mass setting in some kind of plainchant or polyphony, a motet, four hymns and an organ voluntary.

Are Catholics not allowed to have chant and hymns in their OF liturgies? Or is it just not usually done?

 

[Newbie2]

Unfortunately, what holds pride of place in my parish is the banal and tawdry stuff from OCP. If I ever win the lotto, I would gladly donate the money to buy an organ and to send our choir director to a workshop on real sacred music instead of the training sponsored by OCP and the NPM.

Please, BG, tell us what you really think…don’t hold back.

To answer the OP, nope, not in our parish.

Why not? Couple of reasons, IMHO. First, we are a younger parish and have maybe…20% “old school” Catholics who have experienced more traditional masses in their early lives. The majority have really never heard such music in a mass setting and perhaps don’t realize how cool it really can be.

Second, along with that, I believe many in our parish would consider it “ancient school” and a turn-off to mass. Not that it’s majority rule, but there is a practical consideration that if it was included in our masses there would likely be a mass exodus. I could be wrong, but that’s my opinion.

Of course, the practical solution would be to offer them at one mass only, sort of experimentally, and see what the response would be.

Personally, I’m sort of “bi-polar” when it comes to liturgical music. Sometimes I enjoy the traditional, sometimes the more contemporary.

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve noticed that a few people have mentioned they prefer English hymns to chant in the Mass, as a kind of either/or. In my parish we have the Mass setting in some kind of plainchant or polyphony, a motet, four hymns and an organ voluntary.

Are Catholics not allowed to have chant and hymns in their OF liturgies? Or is it just not usually done?

In my parish, we have something similar. For the masses which has no choir, we will have chant and at least one hymn usually for the recessional, as well as organ works. The processional will be the text from the propers set to a hymn melody. Communion will usually be chanted propers with the congregation singing the response after each verse.

During the masses with choir, we will have chant, polyphony, a motet during the offertory, the communion chant, then another motet (we have a lot of people at mass usually), hymn and organ composition.

A few other parishes in the diocese have started doing something similar. You see it more in the city, but I just saw that a parish in the suburbs (which is a total shock) is trying out the Latin NO with the chanted propers, etc. (We already have a few parishes in the diocese starting an EF mass) But most parishes don’t have the kind of musicians who can train volunteer choirs to do this kind of music, nor do most have the musicians with the level of talent and ability that our parish has. There are some with decent to excellent organists and pianists, but no training in choral music or chanting. And then you have the guitar players and contemporary rock music musicians. But I will say, most of the parishes I’ve subbed in or attended either don’t have the contemporary music or they just have the one mass which includes it, like for LT. A lot of people I know, who aren’t musicians nor are they classical music enthusiasts of any sort (they like rock music for the most part) can’t stand that music at mass. They find it, in their words, “ridiculous” and “counter-intuitive” to mass. Most of them are fairly neutral when it comes to other music, though. They think much of it, like the folksy '70s and '80s stuff is bad, but put up with it and don’t think there is much hope to getting anything better than that, so they don’t complain. They look at it as just part of “Catholic Culture” - bad liturgical music.

 

[Contarini]

In the churches I frequent the Kyrie, Agnus Dei, et al, are accompanied by the organ, piano or chamber orchestra regardless of which language is used, that is not Gregorian Chant as I remember it. When I sang as a youth we got a keying note at most while the chant was unaccompanied. The modern Gregorian Chants CDs I use for meditation and calming are occasionally accompanied by a very quiet flute. Perhaps I don’t understand what true Gregorian Chant is?

You can definitely accompany plainsong on the organ, although I’m not very good at it (I’m the organist for my parish).

As for fitting a few Greek or Latin verses into a ceremony otherwise in English may feel good to some but to me it smacks of some elitist attempt to make those Mass parts more spiritual.

What exactly is the word “elitist” doing in that sentence? It’s one of those words that gets thrown around a lot as a smear without careful definition.

Using the ancient languages of the Church in worship is valuable because it ties us to the universal Church throughout time and space and reminds us that our Faith was not invented in the 60s or 70s (our major liturgical reform in the Episcopal Church is the 1979 BCP).

The fact is that the best prayer is one in which those praying fully understand what they are saying, hardly the case with most of our congregation when “reciting” Latin or Greek phrases.

Then teach 'em. That’s what Vatican II called for. Why do Catholics assume that this is impossible? People are not as stupid as folks in your Communion generally suppose.

It’s not that heard to learn what a brief prayer means.

Edwin

 

[roadsend]

…
Using the ancient languages of the Church in worship is valuable because it ties us to the universal Church throughout time and space and reminds us that our Faith was not invented in the 60s or 70s (our major liturgical reform in the Episcopal Church is the 1979 BCP).

Then teach 'em. That’s what Vatican II called for. Why do Catholics assume that this is impossible? People are not as stupid as folks in your Communion generally suppose.

It’s not that heard to learn what a brief prayer means.

Edwin

I never really understood this attitude.
Jewish children accept learning to read and pray ancient Hebrew prior to their Bar (Bat) Mitzvah in their early teens.
Muslim children memorize, pray and sing the Koran in ancient Arabic even before they reach their teens.
and yet
Catholic children are somehow not smart enough to learn to read and sing Latin, even when they have the vernacular on the page right next to the Latin?
Sheesh.

 

[VociMike]

You can definitely accompany plainsong on the organ, although I’m not very good at it (I’m the organist for my parish).

And in fact the “keepers of the Church’s chant,” the Abbey of Solesmes, publishes a 3-volume set of organ accompaniment to the Roman Gradual. So either unaccompanied chant or (subtle) organ accompaniment is acceptable. But not piano, that’s like oil and water with chant.

What exactly is the word “elitist” doing in that sentence? It’s one of those words that gets thrown around a lot as a smear without careful definition.

Especially when the endeavor is simply an attempt to be obedient to the documents of Vatican II and the subsequent exhortations of popes.

Using the ancient languages of the Church in worship is valuable because it ties us to the universal Church throughout time and space and reminds us that our Faith was not invented in the 60s or 70s (our major liturgical reform in the Episcopal Church is the 1979 BCP).

Yes, I’m glad you bring up the notion that we are united in this form of sung prayer both in time and in space.

Then teach 'em. That’s what Vatican II called for. Why do Catholics assume that this is impossible? People are not as stupid as folks in your Communion generally suppose.

It’s not that heard to learn what a brief prayer means.

I wonder how much of the rest of the world would snicker at such an objection from we Americans who are notoriously mono-lingual, and not to our credit. One might even sense a bit of the Ugly American in an insistence that all must be in English, and that other languages are “too hard” and/or “not useful.”

 

[Newbie2]

Catholic children are somehow not smart enough to learn to read and sing Latin, even when they have the vernacular on the page right next to the Latin?
Sheesh.

Of course they’re intelligent enough, I don’t think anyone would debate that, but the burning question is why bother?

Nobody speaks latin anymore. Nobody.

For those who may be interested, sure, teach them. But should one really be required to learn words in a second language, where few if any will really grasp the meaning of the latin, where English, Spanish, etc, etc. are readily available?

OK, a few words here and there would be helpful, no doubt, in catechesis.

Whoops, off topic. Sorry.

In chants it makes sense, methinks, for other aspects of liturgy…that is another topic.