Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

[Joe_Monahan]

:clapping:

Just a note to acknowledge the civility and charity of the debate in this thread, ladies and gentlemen. It is impressive that you can disagree and still treat each other with respect while refuting one another’s arguments and seeking to convince one another to understand your respective points of view. Thank you.

Joe

 

[Joseph_Alison]

hawk:

I have tangible testament in the thousands of apparitions, in which Mary has praised Jesus, and asked us to worship Him.

It is the sign of the living God.

What does islam have to say for itself as regards these apparitions and healings?

Salaam Friend hawk;
The signs of the living God are the woman giving birth to a child, a bird flying in the air, a blooming flower, the multitude of fruits and vegetables, the sea and what it contains, the sky and what’s in it, the eyes I see with, the ears I hear with, my brain, my heart and all that I am etc. These are the signs everyone can see. They are with us, close to us, in order to always remind us of Him and His Majesty.

“Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!” 030.020

”And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect” 030.021

“And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know”. 030.022

“And among His Signs is the sleep that ye take by night and by day, and the quest that ye (make for livelihood) out of His Bounty: verily in that are signs for those who hearken” 030.023

”And among His Signs, He shows you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope, and He sends down rain from the sky and with it gives life to the earth after it is dead: verily in that are Signs for those who are wise” 030.024

”And among His Signs is this, that heaven and earth stand by His Command: then when He calls you, by a single call, from the earth, behold, ye (straightway) come forth” 030.025

”To Him belongs every being that is in the heavens and on earth: all are devoutly obedient to Him” 030.026

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Ghosty]

Peace be with you, Joseph.

Dear Friend, a quick reminder of what you wrote: “As has been stated, Catholics do not believe that Mary has any powers beyond yours or mine” but when confronted with the statement ““All that belongs to God by nature belongs to Mary by grace” you used your clever way of dismissing embarrassing arguments by playing with words.

No, I’m not dismissing anything at all. As my illustration points out, all planets have the same attributes as the moon: they are dark rocks that reflect God’s light. The fact that the moon is brighter does not indicate that it has a different nature from the planets. The whole idea of “belonging” is tied into the concepts of nature and grace. Nature is what something has, grace is what is given. The moon has no more light than the planets, even while it shines so much brighter. The reason is that the moon, by nature, is dark. All light that you see from the moon is from the sun, but the light is NEVER from the moon; it is only a reflection from the sun. Furthermore, once the sun gives light to the moon, it does not belong to the moon in the sense that it is the moon’s power, because if you remove the sun, the moon does not continue to glow. On the contrary, it is dark and cold. So when you quote the above, you must understand that “belong” does not mean “own”, and this is made clear by the use of grace in the sentance.

Mary is believed to have powers beyond yours and mine and it is believed by Catholic saints; whether she acquired these powers by grace or by any other process is not the point, the fact remains that it is **believed **it belongs to her et she is supplicated **because **of that belief, and as other brothers pointed out that is your worship of Mary.

No, we ask her to perform du’a on our behalf in the same way, and for the same reasons, we ask eachother to do the same. The moon is a dark rock, the planets are dark rocks. Catholics never, ever say that Mary is not a “dark rock” like the rest of us, we never elevate her to a higher or different nature. We never ascribe to her more powers than we have.

After reading the above prayer, I asked myself: what is left for God?

If you understand grace, you know that EVERYTHING is left for God. Nothing has “light” of its own besides the sun in my example. Nothing sends forth light of its own except the sun. Nothing warms the sky except the sun. Without the sun, the moon and planets are dark and cold; they have no powers of their own at all.

Well friend Ghosty, they certainly understood it, that is why: “Our salvation is based upon the holy Virgin… so that if there is any hope and spiritual healing for us we receive it solely and uniquely from her”

You can’t effectively understand, or tell me what Catholics understand, in these quotes unless you understand the concept of grace. I am a Catholic, I know what grace is, it is a fundamental part of the Catholic belief. I have explained it to you, and I’ve explained how two things can be identical but not the same in grace. I know what is meant in these quotes you are posting, and they do not say what you think they say because you are still struggling with the notion of grace. That’s ok, I don’t expect you to understand grace without serious reflection, and that’s why I used the example of planets and moons, which are identical, but different by grace.

Remove the moon and the solar system becomes instable or perishes, remove Mary and you tell me what will happen to your faith. According to your explanation, nothing dramatic would happen if Mary were removed from the picture since she is “only a channel” and nothing I listed belongs to her. A lot of things would happen if Mary were removed from the picture: “

Let me turn this back at you. Mohammed is just a man like you and me. He has the same nature, the same powers. Yet, if you remove him from the picture, what happens to your faith? You have no Quran, you have no universal preaching, you have no Islam. You see, through one man the Quran comes to the world, but the Quran is not Mohammed’s. Through one man the word of God came to all people, but Mohammed is not God, and is no different from you or me. When God first revealed the Quran to Mohammed, did he not know God more than others? Was he not closer to God because he had God’s own words and thoughts in his mind? He could speak the very words of God, and the Arab pagans could not even imagine those words, but Mohammed was no greater than those people. Mohammed had the very words of God in his mind, but he did not possess the mind of God. The Quran is God’s by nature, but it was Mohammed’s by grace.

So, read your question again with this in mind, and maybe you’ll understand better what is being said.

continued…

 

[Ghosty]

I quoted Pope PiusIX and St. Bonaventure beliefs about Mary (Which should be yours and the one of every Catholic) which shows that Mary is not a “mere” channel through which you direct your prayers.

But, see, it doesn’t seem you understand what he is saying. Since Mary is in perfect submission to God, and does all that He asks, do deny her is to deny God, because she does nothing without God telling her. To go back to Mohammed and the Quran specifically, anyone who rejects these words of Mohammed is rejecting God, because the words of Mohammed are not his, but God’s. Anyone who rejects service in Mohammed’s army is rejecting God, because Mohammed formed an army by God’s will, not his own. Anyone who hears Mohammed preach the Quran and says “I don’t have to listen to Mohammed because he’s just a man like me,” is doing evil, aren’t they?

No Friend Ghosty, I am reading the “moon eclipses the sun”, in other words the sun is behind the scene.
Why not go directly to the source of the light instead of going to a reflector of the light?

Why not go directly to God, rather than the writings of Mohammed? Why does God hide behind Mohammed rather than putting the Quran into the minds of all people everywhere? Mohammed doesn’t eclipse God just because the word of God comes through Mohammed, and Mary does not eclipse God just because the Word of God Made Flesh comes through her.

I know the subject of Mary is a difficult one to talk about. It is easy for an outsider to cross the line and write something that our Catholic friends would find offending. Hopefully, Muslims hold Mary in high esteem as a woman selected by Allah (SWT) from among the woman of the world, and as such no offending terms concerning that devout lady will Incha’Allah come from us.

You have written nothing that offends me. Yes, it is true that you misunderstand what the saints are saying about Mary, but that is to be expected because we come from different cultures and terms mean different things to us. You have been very kind in this discussion, and I hope you understand a little better now that Catholics view Mary as just a human, just as Muslims view Mohammed as just a man, even though we both believe that our respective figures bring the Word of God to the world.

Just because we ask her to pray for us does not mean we are putting powers on her that others do not have, just as when you ask your mother to pray for you, you are not worshipping her.

God bless!

 

[hawk]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Friend hawk;
The signs of the living God are the woman giving birth to a child, a bird flying in the air, a blooming flower, the multitude of fruits and vegetables, the sea and what it contains, the sky and what’s in it, the eyes I see with, the ears I hear with, my brain, my heart and all that I am etc. These are the signs everyone can see. They are with us, close to us, in order to always remind us of Him and His Majesty.
…

I dont deny this, but it doesnt answer my question, are you trying to avoid commenting?
Islam cannot answer all the many miracles of the supernatural kind in Christianity, can it?

 

[r.gonzales]

Ghosty:

The definition for supplicate gives no indication of what you’re trying to say. Yes, it says “as by praying”, but you have to know what praying means in order to make the accusation you do. You are, quite frankly, wrong when you say we don’t pray to our kids. In fact, the English language absolutely includes praying to other people. For example, “And, pray tell, what is the meaning of these semantical games?” To pray simply means to ask strongly, although it is also usually used in the context of a deity. The word pray is even a legal term in English, used in the courts to indicate a petition. Look it up if you like, you’ll see it has many meanings, the majority of which have nothing to do with deities.

let’s take a look at the definition of the word “pray” as found in webster’s third international dictionary and seven language dictionary (a 3 volume dictionary with extensive definitions for pracitically any word you wish to find).

pray 'pra*vb* -ED/-ING/-S

…
1 : ENTREAT, IMPLORE: as a : to make supplication to (a god) b (I) : to ask (someone) to do something usu. humbly or as an inferior to a superior : CRAVE <~ed the king to give them land> - often used as a function word in introducing a question, request or plea <~ tell me the time> <~ let us hurry>; compare PLEASE (2) : to ask earnestly for (something) : supplicate for : BEG <I know not how to ! your patience - Shak.> c : to ask (someone) for or on behalf of another <we ~ you… be ye reconciled to God - 2 Cor 5:20 (AV)>
this is just the first definition and its usages. the second listed is basically a synonym for “invite” and the third definition basically describes the act of intecession.

so as you can see, the implication i mentioned is deeply rooted in the word. and this is further shown by looking at the first definition of “prayer” found in the same dictionary.

a solemn and humble approach to Divinity in word or thought usu. involving beseeching, petition, confession, praise, or thanksgiving

the example you give for the word is a kin to “please” and does not have anything to do with our dicussion here, which is concerning the act of “praying” to someone.

Ghosty:

How on Earth can I believe something that I don’t perceive? That’s nonsense, I’m afraid. It’s impossible to believe something and not know it. Perhaps you mean something different? Or perhaps YOU are wrong about what we believe.

it’s quite easy to believe in something and at the same time not perceive the reality that said belief entails. it happens all the time to people who follow their passions and desires. do you think everyone who has deviated from the truth has done so purposely and knowlingly? of course not. some of these people have deviated due to some misunderstanding or confusion that they had regarding an issue or issues that has lead them to stray. they firmly believe that what they’re upon is the truth, yet do not perceive the faslehood of their beliefs and understanding or even the reality that their beliefs and understandings necessitate.

Ghosty:

The fact is, though you seem willing to twist all reality to avoid accepting it, that Islam is dead wrong about what we believe and teach. Absolutely, 100% wrong. I’ve known countless Muslims, all very kind and intelligent people, but it never ceases to amaze me that, when such discussions have come up, they’ve always insisted on telling me what I really believe rather than hearing what I say. This is a very dangerous blind-spot to have, and one that doesn’t bode well for your faith. It shows either a gaping wound in the fabric of Islam, or a complete inability on the part of Muslims to rectify reality with their traditional understanding of the Quran. This is an issue that must be settled, or Islam will be reduced to burying its collective head in the sand, away from all logic and philosophy.

if you wish to believe that, that’s up to you. but anyone with a clear sense of logic and reason can look at what your beliefs dictate and see the numerous contradictions and fallacies that lie within them.

 

[r.gonzales]

hawk:

Tawassul is accepted in islam, Tawassul is the means to Allah, everything in islam then becomes Tawassul.

tawassul is permitted in islam, but not absolutely and unrestrictedly. there are permissible forms of tawassul and impermissible forms of tawassul that amount to shirk.

hawk:

Regarding Shafa’a
Whether persons other than the Prophet are intercessors as well the answer is: yes

intercession in islam takes place on the day of judgement. and intecession is granted only to certain peoples - and only granted to those who Allah wills it to be granted to. as for this worldly life, there is no intercession for anyone, and supplications are to be made to Allah alone.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Ghosty:

So when you quote the above, you must understand that “belong” does not mean “own”, and this is made clear by the use of grace in the sentance

Salaam Friend Ghosty;
OK my friend. So, since “belong” does not mean “own”, must I understand that “ALL that belongs to God by nature is **not **owned by God by nature”? Who owns it then? I know this is only a typo from your part; one has to be careful with the use of words.

No, we ask her to perform du’a on our behalf in the same way, and for the same reasons, we ask each other to do the same.

You ask her with a conviction that your prayer will be heard and answered; that conviction is equated to a belief, in other words you have a firm belief that your prayer will be answered when you go through her; in Islam placing that firm belief with someone other than Allah (SWT) and acting upon it is worship.

“Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.
St. Alphonsus Ligouri had the firm belief that his requests through Mary had more changes to be granted and he gave the reason “Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother”. How does he know is what I am stuggling to grasp.

You can’t effectively understand, or tell me what Catholics understand, in these quotes unless you understand the concept of grace. I am a Catholic, I know what grace is, it is a fundamental part of the Catholic belief. I have explained it to you, and I’ve explained how two things can be identical but not the same in grace. I know what is meant in these quotes you are posting, and they do not say what you think they say because you are still struggling with the notion of grace. That’s ok, I don’t expect you to understand grace without serious reflection, and that’s why I used the example of planets and moons, which are identical, but different by grace.

Fair enough my friend, no more talks about grace from my part, may be one day I will grasp its meaning Incha’Allah.

Let me turn this back at you. Mohammed is just a man like you and me. He has the same nature, the same powers. Yet, if you remove him from the picture, what happens to your faith? You have no Quran, you have no universal preaching, you have no Islam

Muhammad (PBUH) delivered the message he was charged with in the most perfect manners. We don’t have any other belief in him other than him being the messenger of Allah (SWT) to mankind. Our belief about him is codified in the holy Qur’an “Muhammad is but a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) have passed away before him. Will it be that, when he dieth or is slain, ye will turn back on your heels? He who turneth back on his heels doth no hurt to Allah, and Allah will reward the thankful.” (Qur’an 3:144)

At the beginning, Allah (SWT) told Adam and Eve that a guidance will come to them from Him:
“We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve” (Qur’an 2.38)

Muhammad (PBUH) was part of that guidance and allah (SWT) knows best who to send to deliver his message: “And when a token cometh unto them, they say: We will not believe till we are given that which Allah’s messengers are given. Allah knoweth best with whom to place His message” (Qur’an 6:124)

Muslims will never take Muhammad (PBUH) other than what he is; it is a condition for them to be Muslims to testify: “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the slave and messenger of Allah” This testimony is repeated many times every day and is there to make sure Muhammad (PBUH) will never, ever be taken other than what he is.

As for your remarks about the Qur’an, I would like to say that a great deal of its message is to kill any inclination towards idolatry (in whatever form it takes) in the heart of those who believe in it.
Monotheism in its purest form is what the Qur’an teaches. In his farewell sermon, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: “Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope of that he will be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things” Source here

Continued…

 

[jcaz]

There is no need to personally reply to these false statements when my brother, baarakallaahu feeh, replied to you with appropriate responses:

there are permissible forms of tawassul and impermissible forms of tawassul that amount to shirk. intercession in islam takes place on the day of judgement. and intecession is granted only to certain peoples - and only granted to those who Allah wills it to be granted to. as for this worldly life, there is no intercession for anyone, and supplications are to be made to Allah alone.

What is sad is that surely you guys have heard these answers, yet you pretend that you have never heard them, and you go about making the same baseless arguments and false accusations, perhaps hoping to find a Muslim who understands as little about tawheed as many Christians, thus an opportunity to confuse him.

Originally posted by Ghosty:

Jcaz: Your argument falls apart, Jcaz, because Muslims have people pray for them, but Muslims don’t say that they are worshipping their friends when they ask them to pray for them. If a Muslims says “Pray for me” to a friend, they are doing the same thing Catholics do to Mary, but Muslims say Catholics are supplicating and that they themselves are not.

Asking another person to pray for you is not from the haraam intercession that constitutes shirk. Rather this is accepted. What is the difference? And I know YOU have heard the answer, but you simply ask the question, as perhaps this is just how things work.

The DIFFERENCE is clear. Asking a living person, who is next to you and HEARS your request is permissible. BUT ONLY Allaah is the All-Hearer. Only Allaah can hear our supplications. And mind you, even asking a living person to pray for you can be an act of shirk if you believe that this person can hear your request while not being present. For example, assume there is some “great shaykh” in the middle east, and several Muslims, after their daily prayers, “ask” this person to pray for them and to intercede for them. HOW CAN THIS SHAYKH HEAR THEM? He is thousands of miles away! This would be shirk. The same goes for those who have past. To Allaah alone belongs the attribute of All-Hearing. And it is not possible for a dead person, even if you say he/she is “living” in heaven, to hear us. Only Allaah can hear the supplication.

r.gonzales gave several evidences for this:

He also says, “so surely, you cannot make the dead nor the deaf hear the supplication” (30:52) and, “certainly those who hear can answer, while the dead, Allah will resurrect them, then to Him they will return.” (6:36) and, “and the living and the dead are not equal. surely, Allah makes whoever He wills hear, while you are not one who can make whoever is in the graves hear.” (35:22).

So what is your argument now? “Oh well, so you are saying that God can’t let others be all-hearing. This means you are limiting the power of Allaah!”

No, Allaah can give whatever power to whoever He wishes. HOWEVER, this is NO EVIDENCE stating that He has giving this authority to others, and until one brings forth his proof for such claims, you are merely following that…claims.

continued on next page insha Allaah

 

[Joseph_Alison]

…Continued and end.

So, read your question again with this in mind, and maybe you’ll understand better what is being said.

Friend Ghosty, you left me with the feeling that I will never understand no matter how; that is very encouraging from you. Anyway, I think the feeling came to me that it is about time to end this discussion which I really enjoyed having with you.

Why not go directly to God, rather than the writings of Mohammed?

There are no writings of Muhammad (PBUH), he authored no books whatsoever; he however transmitted faithfully the revelation he received from Allah (SWT) and which was committed into memory and into writings for the generations to come.

Why does God hide behind Mohammed rather than putting the Quran into the minds of all people everywhere?

I can ask the same question about the Bible and the Torah. God certainly knows how and where to put his messages.

Allah (SWT) hiding behind Muhammad? I never heard such a charge before. God is everywhere in the Qur’an; Muhammad (PBUH) is almost invisible in book. The Qur’an is full of commands to Muhammad (PBUH) to “say”.

Mohammed doesn’t eclipse God just because the word of God comes through Mohammed, and Mary does not eclipse God just because the Word of God Made Flesh comes through her.

You are right, when I worship Allah (SWT) Muhammad (PBUH) barely comes to my mind, except when his name is mentioned I say “Peace be upon him”. Everything Muslims do is solely for the pleasure of Allah (SWT). We pray to Allah (SWT) to protect us from ascribing partners to Him knowingly and we ask his forgiveness to ascribe partners to Him unknowingly.

Friend Ghosty;
I think I gave my opinion on the subject topic; I have no more to say.
You kept hammering that I don’t understand, may be you are right, what is life after all if not a perpetual learning.
I thank everyone for his/her hospitality and I hope to see you in another thread.

Salaam.
Joseph

 

[jcaz]

continued…

Originally posted by Ghosty:

Muslims can ask for du’a from others without being accused of worshipping them, but when Catholics do it we are accused of worship. It is clear that merely asking someone to make du’a for you is not itself worship according to Islam, so it’s not the action of requesting that’s the problem.

I have clearly stated that the du’a that constitutes worship is asking the unseen. Asking another living person, who can hear/read your request, to pray for you, is perfectly acceptable. Catholics, when they do this, and ONLY this, are NOT accused of worshiping other humans.

Originally posted by Ghosty:

The real problem seems to be the fact that we are asking “the dead” for du’a on our behalf, because clearly Islam allows these requests to the living. The argument seems to be that by asking the dead, we are attributing to them qualities that belong only to God, namely the ability to hear us everywhere, but we’ve already taken that argument apart on this thread.

Yes, this is the problem. The “dead” CANNOT hear your supplication. You must provide the PROOF, the EVIDENCE, showing this. And Ghosty, you have NOT “taken that argument apart on this thread.” All you have said is

Quote:

We know that we believe such prayers to be no different than asking our friends to pray for/with us, and we have since centuries before Mohammed was a glimmer in his mother’s eye. The plain and simple truth is that you are wrong about what we believe, and you are wrong about the implication we are using. After all, if we believe the word has a different implication, we would have to be unknowingly worshipping Mary, and one can’t unknowingly worship something.

With that you have proven nothing. We are not wrong about what you believe. I understand what you supposedly believe. You, as stated above, believe that asking a living person is exactly the same as asking a dead person. So that is YOUR belief. End of that story.

However, that is NOT from the beliefs that Allaah taught to mankind. That is not from the beliefs that any of the messengers came with. That is NOT from the beliefs of Jesus, peace be upon him.

Where did Jesus call upon the dead? WHERE? Show me. You claim to be a Christian, hence a follower of Christ. Show me ONE verse, JUST ONE, where Jesus, peace be upon him, called upon the dead for help. Show me this verse. YOU WILL NEVER FIND THIS VERSE. Jesus, peace be upon him, ONLY called upon his Lord. So what about other prophets? Show me ONE VERSE where Abraham, or Moses, or Isaac, or Noah, called upon the dead for intercession. Show me ONE VERSE. That is all I ask. How about showing me one verse where Jesus, peace be upon him, taught the people to call upon the dead. Show me where he instructed the disciples to call upon Moses in times of need for intercession. Please bring forward these verses.

You know, perhaps I do not know the NT very well. Perhaps Jesus taught the people to bow down in prayer and to ask Abraham for help and intercession. Who knows. Just show one verse. Your entire religion is based upon supplicating to and calling upon individuals of the unseen. You have an entire list of saints which are supplicated to in times of need. Surely you MUST have not only one verse, but tens if not hundreds of very clear verses that PROVE that this is not only permissible, but recommended.

So no, you have not resolved these questions. Your only response is that these are our beliefs. Fine, to you your beliefs and to us ours. But your beliefs, at least with regards to supplicating to the dead, ARE NOT from the teachings of ANY of the Prophets. Period.

Originally posted by Ghosty:

You are focusing too much on the action of asking, but that can not be called worship without destroying the Muslim tradition of offering du’a on behalf of others.

OF COURSE WE ARE FOCUSING ON THE ACTION OF ASKING, and TO WHO is the action be directed. The FOCUS is on who you are asking. There is a tremendous difference between asking a living, PRESENT human and a person who is dead, who was UNABLE TO HELP THEMSELVES.

 

[iamrefreshed]

**No, Allaah can give whatever power to whoever He wishes. HOWEVER, this is NO EVIDENCE stating that He has giving this authority to others, and until one brings forth his proof for such claims, you are merely following that…claims. **

continued on next page insha Allaah

So it’s evidence you need? Where is the “evidence” that Gabriel spoke to Mohammed? We only have Mohammed’s word.

Until one brings forth his proof for such claims, you are merely following that…claims

 

[jcaz]

And whether or not you agree with it, Muhammad’s word, to a Muslim, counts as evidence.

Same way, whether or not Muslims agree with you, Jesus’ words, as found in the bible, do count as evidence for the christians. We may believe those words have been altered or changed, and you can choose to believe that Muhammad, sallallaahu ‘alahye wa sallama, lied. But his words, to Muslims, count as evidence, just as Jesus’ words, to Christians, count as evidence.

So yes, Muhammad stating that Gabriel spoke to him is evidence for us.

And let me point out, that when one take a question, ducks from the question, and then tries to accuse someone else with a similar statement, that person is making it very clear that they do not have the answer!

So as you have shown us that you do NOT have the evidences for your claims, we will wait for, perhaps, more informed Christians who can enlighten us and show us their evidences, where Jesus, peace be upon him, taught mankind to call upon, supplicate to, and seek intercession with other than Allaah.

 

[hawk]

jcaz:

So as you have shown us that you do NOT have the evidences for your claims, we will wait for, perhaps, more informed Christians who can enlighten us and show us their evidences, where Jesus, peace be upon him, taught mankind to call upon, supplicate to, and seek intercession with other than Allaah.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

[Ghosty]

this is just the first definition and its usages. the second listed is basically a synonym for “invite” and the third definition basically describes the act of intecession.

You should understand that if a word has more than one meaning, then any one of those meanings can be used without invoking another. We Catholics say that we are simply asking “please” to Mary when we say “Pray to Mary”, and you tell us we are not. The fact is that you are the one changing our use of the word in order to support your argument. You even admit that asking politely is valid definition of the word, and we have shown that it is still often used in English without any implication of worship, but you refuse to accept our statements for no reason other than it disproves yours. Tell me, when a legal request is submitted to a U.S. court with the words “We pray to you to hear our case”, are the people worshipping the judge? You can’t just arbitrarily dismiss the actual use of the word just because it goes against your belief.

I assure you that we are using different meanings, and it is much more clear in Latin, which is the official language of the Church. In Latin, we offer Mary “hyperdulia”, and God we offer “latria”. Only God can receive latria. These are not differences in degree, because there is also “dulia” with “hyper” being a measure of degree. Latria is fundamentally different from “dulia” and “hyperdulia”, and can not be compared. In English, these two different terms translate imperfectly into two very different definitions of the same word, but if we were speaking in Latin this would not even be up for discussion.

As for the rest of your post, I agree that people can deviate unknowingly, but the question isn’t whether someone deviates in practice, but in what they actually believe. You can’t deviate unknowingly in what you believe. Regardless, it’s irrelevant in this context because, as I’ve stated, Catholics never offer Mary latria, knowingly or unknowingly.

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

I dont deny this, but it doesnt answer my question, are you trying to avoid commenting?
Islam cannot answer all the many miracles of the supernatural kind in Christianity, can it?

almost every religious group in this entire world has “supernatural” miracles.

and it doesnt make them any less false.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

almost every religious group in this entire world has “supernatural” miracles.

and it doesnt make them any less false.

So show me islamic miracles, please, cant one muslim point me to some true islamic miracles?

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

So show me islamic miracles, please, cant one muslim point me to some true islamic miracles?

in all honesty…this is very sad. The foundation of your beliefs is not understandable and can not give you sound faith…so you point to “miracles” left and right to prove that Christianity is the truth…but ofcourse not all of Christianity, just the Catholic part.

In my own personal life, i have witnessed small miracles from Allah. It doesnt come as a shining light in the sky or an image of whatever sort. But things that guide me and let me know that Allah is always with me…listening to my prayers and keeping me on the right track. Im not going to go into detail about them…b/c they are personal. But even then, this is NOT what my faith is based on.

 

[hawk]

Faith101:

in all honesty…this is very sad. The foundation of your beliefs is not understandable and can not give you sound faith…so you point to “miracles” left and right to prove that Christianity is the truth…but ofcourse not all of Christianity, just the Catholic part.

Firstly this is not what our faith is based on at all.

We have very valid scripture and revelation.

But as testament to the Truth of that Faith we have miracles.

Its like additional evidence of the Truth.

Where is your evidence?

I have started a thread to show the validity of Mohammeds prophethood, perhaps you can provide proof there.

What is to stop me from producing another Quran, and saying that it is a valid scripture, no, God must bear witness to the Truth.

This is absent in Islam, completely.

Ah the miracle of the Quran

Dont worry we have information galore on that topic.

What else?

 

[Ghosty]

“Many things are asked from God and are not granted; they are asked from Mary and are obtained. Now why is this? Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother." St. Alphonsus Ligouri, in The Glories of Mary, Chapter IV "To Thee Do We Cry, p 48.
St. Alphonsus Ligouri had the firm belief that his requests through Mary had more changes to be granted and he gave the reason “Because God has thus decreed to honor His Mother”. How does he know is what I am stuggling to grasp.

Because he is Catholic, and raised deeply in our Scriptures. The first miracle of Jesus’ was done because His mother asked first. St. Alphonsus is refering to this incident in John 2:1-9. Without understanding our Scriptures and our definitions, it may be difficult to understand what is being said. We place this firm belief not because of any qualities of Mary, but because of what Scriptures tell us, namely that God honors her wishes. As I have already explained, however, God honors them because her wishes are always His own, because she has perfectly brought her desires in line with God. God does not honor her because she is more powerful than Him, not at all. She is a creature, and due dulia, not latria.

Muslims will never take Muhammad (PBUH) other than what he is; it is a condition for them to be Muslims to testify: “There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the slave and messenger of Allah” This testimony is repeated many times every day and is there to make sure Muhammad (PBUH) will never, ever be taken other than what he is.

It seems you skipped over my part about the graces that have come through Mohammed. I’m not saying that you worship Mohammed as more than human, but I am saying that Mohammed was obviously a key bringer of God’s grace to the world. Furthermore, the fact that you say “peace be upon him” every time after his name, but not every time after mine, even though we have the same nature, is an act of dulia. That is exactly the same kind of honor we give Mary. This is why we Catholics are perplexed at your accusations that we hold Mary above other people, when it is obvious that you treat Mohammed’s very name differently than you treat others. We don’t accuse you of worshipping Mohammed, we recognize it as dulia.

Friend Ghosty, you left me with the feeling that I will never understand no matter how; that is very encouraging from you. Anyway, I think the feeling came to me that it is about time to end this discussion which I really enjoyed having with you.

I’ve enjoyed it too, but I hope you don’t walk away feeling like you’ll never understand. I’m not saying you’ll agree with me, but you will understand if you try, I am certain. What belongs to God is God’s, what is graced to Mary (and us) is God’s. God receives latria, Mary receives dulia. If someone were to say that Mary was due latria, they would be banished from the Church. I will try to make things as clear as I can as I think of more examples.

Allah (SWT) hiding behind Muhammad? I never heard such a charge before. God is everywhere in the Qur’an; Muhammad (PBUH) is almost invisible in book. The Qur’an is full of commands to Muhammad (PBUH) to “say”.

Funny, the exact same can be said in response to your accusation that Mary is eclipsing God

I think I gave my opinion on the subject topic; I have no more to say.
You kept hammering that I don’t understand, may be you are right, what is life after all if not a perpetual learning.
I thank everyone for his/her hospitality and I hope to see you in another thread.

I hope you continue to reflect on this so that you understand that we offer Mary dulia and not latria. Understanding this is not immediate, and not easy when coming from such a different culture, but it’s possible. It’s just a matter of taking us for our word, and words, and working from there, rather than putting your own meanings to what we say.

Don’t worry, everyone, including me, struggles with this. I’ve been learning a lot from you guys about Islam, too, though it’s been hard to understand sometimes. I’m beginning to find, however, that there is nothing in your concepts that is not already in my faith, it’s just getting past the language that is so difficult.