Doesn't Allah know what Catholics believe?

[Ghosty]

jcaz: Our understanding of the issue of speaking with the dead is already discussed in the Tawheed thread, so no need to rehash it here. I was thinking of that thread when I said “on this thread”. My apologies, it was late and I’ve been posting on so many threads.

Requesting things of the dead does not violate Tawheed, and is in fact ascribed to Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah even within the Catholic faith. It says in our Scripture that the dead can hear our entreaties, and also that they have no power of their own. They hear us by virtue of Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, even according to Catholic teaching, though we obviously don’t use that Arabic term. To deny that the saints can hear us, according to Scripture, would be a violation of Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, and Catholics maintain this tawheed on the pain of death.

 

[jcaz]

Originally posted by Ghosty:

It says in our Scripture that the dead can hear our entreaties

Ghosty:

PLEASE, benefit me, I truly want to know this all important verse. Where is it in the bible? I do not deny its existence, as you claim it is present. I simply want to see if for myself. Please show us this verse.

And even if you show that YOUR scripture says the dead can hear, how does this mean that you are to call upon the dead?

…

 

[Faith101]

hawk:

Firstly this is not what our faith is based on at all.

We have very valid scripture and revelation.

But as testament to the Truth of that Faith we have miracles.

Its like additional evidence of the Truth.

Where is your evidence?

I have started a thread to show the validity of Mohammeds prophethood, perhaps you can provide proof there.

What is to stop me from producing another Quran, and saying that it is a valid scripture, no, God must bear witness to the Truth.

This is absent in Islam, completely.

Ah the miracle of the Quran

Dont worry we have information galore on that topic.

What else?

“Super natural” miracles isnt what makes people believe or not believe and it doesnt even bring one closer to the truth. Its simply a way the messengers before proved to the people that they were sent by God…but even then.

Jesus talked as a baby, cured the blind and the leper, was able to tell strangers the exact locations of things in their houses, he even brought the dead to life (all by the will of God)

and still people disbelieved. so what is your point? that your faith is based on mysterious concepts sugar coated with so called supernatural events?

Like i said before, EVERY religious organization have seen their saints in the skies…it doesnt make them any less false.

You want to prove that Mohamed (peace be upon him) was not a messenger of God…than the burden of proof is on you. over 1.3 billion people on this earth (and growing) testify that he was a slave and messenger of God.

You want to rewrite the Quran…God sets forth an open challenge for you…

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith (Quran 2:23-24)

and whether you want to believe it or not, the Quran is a miracle…no, its not the image of Mohamed on top of a Mosque…it is a declaration of truth…one that continously guides people.

 

[iamrefreshed]

“Super natural” miracles isnt what makes people believe or not believe and it doesnt even bring one closer to the truth. Its simply a way the messengers before proved to the people that they were sent by God…but even then.

Jesus talked as a baby, cured the blind and the leper, was able to tell strangers the exact locations of things in their houses, he even brought the dead to life (all by the will of God)

and still people disbelieved. so what is your point? that your faith is based on mysterious concepts sugar coated with so called supernatural events?

Like i said before, EVERY religious organization have seen their saints in the skies…it doesnt make them any less false.

You want to prove that Mohamed (peace be upon him) was not a messenger of God…than the burden of proof is on you. over 1.3 billion people on this earth (and growing) testify that he was a slave and messenger of God.

You want to rewrite the Quran…God sets forth an open challenge for you…

And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.

But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith (Quran 2:23-24)

and whether you want to believe it or not, the Quran is a miracle…no, its not the image of Mohamed on top of a Mosque…it is a declaration of truth…one that continously guides people.

Again with the numbers Faith? I thought you said numbers don’t matter?

 

[jcaz]

Ghosty did ask me to “tell my conversion story”, and hopefully, in the near future, I will have the time to type it up. But this thread has prompted me to point out one think that attracted me, not to Islaam, but to a truer understanding of Christianity. While I was still Catholic, but learning about Islaam, I had the opportunity of visiting a local masjid and I attended several of the Friday prayers. Most of the time, the opening of the Friday “sermon” ends with the following:

For verily, the best of speech is the speech of Allaah. And the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam. And the worst of matters are new practices in the religion. Every new practice is an innovation, and every innovation is a misguidance, and every misguidance is in the Hellfire.

And as I constantly heard the imaam repeat these words, I began to see how passionately Muslims followed the sunnah of Muhammad. This amazed me. And it revitalized in me a desire to follow Christ. Because I was like, man, look at these guys. Look at how passionately they try to follow the religious beliefs of Muhammad AND ONLY Muhammad…whether you agree with the beliefs or not, and of course, at that time, i did not. But, it inspired me to strengthen my own Christian beliefs. I thought to myself, these guys do not call themselves Muhammadens, yet look at how they so fervently adhere to his teachings. I call myself a Christian, the very name DIRECTLY IMPLYING following of Christ. The least I can do is to truly follow his teachings AND ONLY his teachings." And so I began to examine my beliefs and began to only follow the teachings of Jesus, peace be upon him.

And there were other statements in Islaam that had a similar effect:

Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama, said:
“There is not one thing that shall bring you closer to the Paradise and away from the Fire without me having informed you of it, and there is not one thing that will take you away from paradise and towards the fire except that I have warned you about it.”

And Allaah says in the Quraan:
“This day we have completed your religion for you and perfected our favour upon you and chosen for your way of life Islam.” (Surah Al Imraan 3:85)

And the Prophet also said:
“And beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance.”

So all this being said, if you are a Christian, if you are a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, if you think he was your example, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HE TAUGHT YOU TO CALL UPON THE DEAD!!! PLEASE! What must I do to have you show me this. This is your opportunity. Show us these verses.

I mean, something of this magnitude, something that makes up such a large portion of your faith, must surely have many, many, many statements from Jesus himself teaching you how to do this. PLEASE SHOW THEM.

You call upon Mary. You claim it is asking her to intercede. You ask saints to intercede. You ask the angels for help! And I quote (if my memory serves me correct): “Saint Michael the Archangel, DEFEND US IN BATTLE, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil…”

You ask all these people for intercession. So SURELY Jesus must have taught this to you. Surely, as he is your PRIME EXAMPLE, surely there must be several several verses in new testament where Jesus teaches you to ask the dead for help. We all know the verse where Jesus says, “when you pray, pray like this, Our Father…”

But perhaps there is another verse where he says, “when you pray, pray like this, oh saint so and so, you have the hook up, please ask …” I do not know. I have not memorized the New Testament of your Bible. PLEASE show us these verses and end this discussion. Because once you show us these verses, although we can still disagree, you will have at least shown us that you can substantiate your beliefs with Biblical evidence. At that point it becomes a matter of belief, based on scripture, and we leave it at that. So please, HELP US, show us these verses where Jesus himself called upon the dead for help, perhaps asking Moses to aid him when he was on the cross. Surely it exists.

IF NOT, then you as the Catholic, the CHRISTIAN, the FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, need to begin asking yourself WHO ARE YOU FOLLOWING. If Christ did not call upon saints, and if he did not teach me to call upon saints, and if he is MY EXAMPLE, why do I do so? Did Jesus forget this part of the message? Did it just skip his mind, and he forgot to mention such a crucial point of church theology? It is with these questions that one can gain a heightened awareness of what Jesus, peace be upon him, truly taught.

 

[Ghosty]

jcaz:

Originally posted by Ghosty:

Ghosty:

PLEASE, benefit me, I truly want to know this all important verse. Where is it in the bible? I do not deny its existence, as you claim it is present. I simply want to see if for myself. Please show us this verse.

Peace be with you, jcaz.

I’ll show you two from the New Testament:

Revelation 5:8

8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-4

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

And two from Psalms:

Psalm 103:20-21

20 Praise the LORD, you his angels,
you mighty ones who do his bidding,
who obey his word.
21 Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts,
you his servants who do his will.

Psalm 148:2

2 Praise him, all his angels,
praise him, all his heavenly hosts.

As can be seen, the angels are said in Scripture to offer the prayers of the saints to God, we are to pray to them with the instruction that they praise God. If they can not hear us, then Psalm 103 and 148 would not address them directly, and Revelation would not say that they offer our prayers to God.

And even if you show that YOUR scripture says the dead can hear, how does this mean that you are to call upon the dead?

Because God is the God of the Living, not the Dead. All who have passed on in God’s grace are alive. As you can see in the above Scriptures, not only can the dead and the angels hear us, but we are to communicate with them. They are invoked directly in the ancient Psalms. If you ask how they can hear, I respond with Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, and through no power of their own. How do we know that they hear by Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah? Because God, through Scripture, indicates that we are to communicate directly with them. Psalms are prayers that we are supposed to pray, given to us by God through King David, and God directs us to communicate with the angels in those prayers. The angels and the human dead (saint means “holy one” and applies to both humans and angels) must be able to hear by virtue of Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah. To say otherwise would be to blaspheme against this Tawheed, because God Himself directs us to do these things.

You call upon Mary. You claim it is asking her to intercede. You ask saints to intercede. You ask the angels for help! And I quote (if my memory serves me correct): “Saint Michael the Archangel, DEFEND US IN BATTLE, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the devil…”

You ask all these people for intercession. So SURELY Jesus must have taught this to you.

Yes, He did. Jesus is God, and God gave us the Psalms and Revelation. I’m very sorry that you didn’t read these things carefully before turning against these things, because they are as plain as day. The Psalms even directly address the Angels just as the prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel.

I fear your passion may be getting the best of you. You claim that you were Catholic, but now you make these charges against Catholics as if we have no proof of these things. If you had truly examined your faith, truly understood it, you would have known the Psalms and Revelation. You saw this devotion in Islam, but you did not look carefully into your own faith to see if it was lacking. I don’t say this to insult you, but to point out that just because you failed in your search does not mean that these things are not there, and you should restrain your passion on such matters because you know you are just a man, and a man is not all knowing. Just because you do not know does not make it not exist, and I know you know this as a Muslim.

I recommend that, in addition to more thoroughly and carefully reading Scripture, you also read the works of people like Thomas Aquinas, who dealt with these kinds of questions amply 800 hundred years ago, using Scripture. Reading him may point you towards other things about the Catholic faith that you missed in Scripture. Where there is one ant, there is a hive, and where there is one error, there are many. You may find that many of your conceptions are based on incomplete knowledge, rather than the absence of answers.

God bless you!

 

[jcaz]

Rev 5:8 does not say anything. Neither does Rev 8:3-4. Both refer to prayers of saints. This does NOT say it is allowed to ask a dead person to pray for you, for verily this person cannot even help himself, as he is dead. This verse does NOT say seeking intercession is allowed. So thus far you have FAILED.

Psalms does NOT say that you can seek intercession. So again, you have FAILED.

You say:

As can be seen, the angels are said in Scripture to offer the prayers of the saints to God, we are to pray to them with the instruction that they praise God. If they can not hear us, then Psalm 103 and 148 would not address them directly, and Revelation would not say that they offer our prayers to God.

NO, THIS CANNOT BE SEEN. You are making a bucket load of assumptions. You give a scripture that says that the “saints” offer prayers. And then from this one verse, you are trying to tell me that the HUGE, MASSIVE belief system in Catholicism is based on the ASSUMPTION that you can pray to these saints. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY THIS.

Please realize how tremendous this is. Jesus, peace be upon him, was YOUR EXAMPLE. Did he ever do this??? DID HE? Show me! This is all I ask? You respond with weak verses about saints offering prayers, and even those verses do not say we can pray to the saints!

This was my statement to you:

So all this being said, if you are a Christian, if you are a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, if you think he was your example, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HE TAUGHT YOU TO CALL UPON THE DEAD!!! PLEASE! What must I do to have you show me this. This is your opportunity. Show us these verses. I mean, something of this magnitude, something that makes up such a large portion of your faith, must surely have many, many, many statements from Jesus himself teaching you how to do this. PLEASE SHOW THEM.

Again, you have failed tremendously at showing this. Is it not EXTREMELY sad that this religion, called Christianity, implying following of Christ, has digressed into a system of theology that you CANNOT even link to him. JUST SHOW ME. Don’t tell me about my passion and how I should have been passionate when I was a catholic. Don’t patronize me. Don’t avoid the issue. SHOW ME where Jesus, YOUR EXAMPLE, did these things.

 

[Ghosty]

Peace be with you, Jcaz.

Rev 5:8 does not say anything. Neither does Rev 8:3-4. Both refer to prayers of saints. This does NOT say it is allowed to ask a dead person to pray for you, for verily this person cannot even help himself, as he is dead. This verse does NOT say seeking intercession is allowed. So thus far you have FAILED.

So the saints can do nothing, but they can pray in such a manner that the angels can offer those prayers to God? That is a bit of a lapse of logic. Furthermore, the intercession is that the angels are bringing the prayers of the saints to God.

Psalms does NOT say that you can seek intercession. So again, you have FAILED.

Not in itself, true. What it shows is that we, the living, can pray to the angels and communicate with them. Combined with Revelation, we see that the angels offer prayers to God. We read the WHOLE Scripture, and do not expect one verse to stand on its own any more than Muslims do. This is a disingenuous argument you are making.

Please realize how tremendous this is. Jesus, peace be upon him, was YOUR EXAMPLE. Did he ever do this??? DID HE? Show me! This is all I ask? You respond with weak verses about saints offering prayers, and even those verses do not say we can pray to the saints!

Did Jesus do what, talk to the dead? So glad you asked. Matthew 17:1-3

1After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3**Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. **

Moses and Elijah, speaking with Jesus? Two dead men, conversing with Jesus. You yourself said you studied up on the Gospels, so you know this passage, and I don’t know why you are asking me to prove things that you already know unless you think that I don’t know what you do. I was providing examples outside of His life because you said you had already studied Him.

So let’s do some simple logic. Revelation says that the angels deliver the prayers of the saints, and Psalms says that we can speak directly to the angels and ask them to pray, and Matthew shows us Jesus talking with the dead.

What does this show? That Catholics do exactly what we’ve been saying we do this whole time, namely talking to the dead as we would talk to eachother, just as Jesus does, and asking them to perform du’a for us, just as Muslims do for eachother.

I do want to point out a fundamental error in your reasoning, though, when you say that you strove to do just what Jesus taught. If this is true, then my citation of Psalms should have been enough without me having to cite an action of Jesus, because the Psalms were preached by the Pharisees, and Jesus says this in Matthew 23:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Didn’t you pray the Psalms, and invoke the angels when you were following what Jesus himself said? You should know that quoting the Old Testament is the same as following Jesus, because the Old Testament is from the Pharisees, whom Jesus told us to listen to.

 

[Ghosty]

Jcaz: I forgot to correct one mistake you made. Revelation 5:8 says that the Elders offer the prayers of the saints. The Elders refers specifically to the dead leaders of the Church, as elder was a term in the early Church for bishops and such. We see them offering the prayers of the saints to God.

 

[jcaz]

I am now quoting my original statement for a third time:

So all this being said, if you are a Christian, if you are a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, if you think he was your example, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HE TAUGHT YOU TO CALL UPON THE DEAD!!! PLEASE! What must I do to have you show me this. This is your opportunity. Show us these verses. I mean, something of this magnitude, something that makes up such a large portion of your faith, must surely have many, many, many statements from Jesus himself teaching you how to do this. PLEASE SHOW THEM.

C’mon Ghosty. Just show the verses. This is such a MAJOR part of Catholic belief. Surely you have several verses where Jesus says to call upon the dead for intercession. SURELY, you have several verses in your New Testament that show Jesus himself calling upon the teach (Moses, for example) for intercession. PROVIDE THESE VERSES!

The verses that you quoted from Psalms do NOT show that you can communicate to angels. Yet you say:

What it shows is that we, the living, can pray to the angels and communicate with them. Combined with Revelation, we see that the angels offer prayers to God.

So what can I say to you if you cannot even understand a verse from your own Bible?

You yourself said you studied up on the Gospels, so you know this passage, and I don’t know why you are asking me to prove things that you already know unless you think that I don’t know what you do. I was providing examples outside of His life because you said you had already studied Him.

I stated that I have not memorize the New Testament, and that these verses may exist. PLEASE SHOW THEM TO ME. So let it be clear that I am UNAWARE of any verses where Jesus says that you can call upon the dead for intercession. I am unaware of any verses where Jesus himself, BY EXAMPLE, demonstrates how one does this. So do not let it be your excuse for not providing these verses that you assume I know them. SHOW THEM TO US.

So all this being said, if you are a Christian, if you are a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, if you think he was your example, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HE TAUGHT YOU TO CALL UPON THE DEAD!!! PLEASE! What must I do to have you show me this. This is your opportunity. Show us these verses. I mean, something of this magnitude, something that makes up such a large portion of your faith, must surely have many, many, many statements from Jesus himself teaching you how to do this. PLEASE SHOW THEM.

 

[Genesis315]

jcaz:

I am now quoting my original statement for a third time:

C’mon Ghosty. Just show the verses. This is such a MAJOR part of Catholic belief. Surely you have several verses where Jesus says to call upon the dead for intercession. SURELY, you have several verses in your New Testament that show Jesus himself calling upon the teach (Moses, for example) for intercession. PROVIDE THESE VERSES!

The verses that you quoted from Psalms do NOT show that you can communicate to angels. Yet you say:

So what can I say to you if you cannot even understand a verse from your own Bible?

I stated that I have not memorize the New Testament, and that these verses may exist. PLEASE SHOW THEM TO ME. So let it be clear that I am UNAWARE of any verses where Jesus says that you can call upon the dead for intercession. I am unaware of any verses where Jesus himself, BY EXAMPLE, demonstrates how one does this. So do not let it be your excuse for not providing these verses that you assume I know them. SHOW THEM TO US.

Well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself. He does let Mary intercede for the wedding guests at Cana. He also, at the Transfiguration communicates with two dead saints, Elijah and Moses:thumbsup: .

Sorr I don’t have the specific verese off the top of my head, if you need them I’ll search for them. These are two pretty well-known events though.

 

[exoflare]

jcaz:

I stated that I have not memorize the New Testament, and that these verses may exist. PLEASE SHOW THEM TO ME. So let it be clear that I am UNAWARE of any verses where Jesus says that you can call upon the dead for intercession. I am unaware of any verses where Jesus himself, BY EXAMPLE, demonstrates how one does this. So do not let it be your excuse for not providing these verses that you assume I know them. SHOW THEM TO US.

So, what exactly is your standard here? Are you saying that we should not be allowed to do anything at all unless we can find an instance of Jesus BY EXAMPLE demonstrating how to do it?

 

[hawk]

exoflare:

So, what exactly is your standard here? Are you saying that we should not be allowed to do anything at all unless we can find an instance of Jesus BY EXAMPLE demonstrating how to do it?

I think this is the standard in islam.

We dont have to agree with it, because as we know Jesus’ ministry was for three years, in that time he never got married, so we wouldnt, he never had children, so we wouldnt, at least according to the muslims in this forum.

This sort of argument is pointless.

Peace.

 

[jcaz]

Remember, I have asked numerous times:

So all this being said, if you are a Christian, if you are a FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, if you think he was your example, PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE HE TAUGHT YOU TO CALL UPON THE DEAD!!! PLEASE! What must I do to have you show me this. This is your opportunity. Show us these verses. I mean, something of this magnitude, something that makes up such a large portion of your faith, must surely have many, many, many statements from Jesus himself teaching you how to do this. PLEASE SHOW THEM.

Genesis315 replied by saying:

Well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself.

So I guess this means that you cannot find these verses. A HUGE portion of the foundation of your belief is the concept of calling upon other than Allaah for intercession. When I look Catholics to provide the biblical evidence for this, you respond by saying, well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself. Very true, if Jesus is God, there is no need to intercede with himself. But this “fact” does not relieve you of the burden of supplying evidence to support your belief of intercession. If this is such a foundational belief that Catholics involve in DAILY, SURELY you can find SEVERAL, SEVERAL verses where Jesus, peace be upon him, TAUGHT MANKIND how to do this. I mean, if he came to teach us, and this is a big thing, then SURELY these verses must be in the Bible. Right? So I am still waiting on the Catholics to show me these verses.

 

[jcaz]

Exoflare had a GREAT QUESTION!

So, what exactly is your standard here? Are you saying that we should not be allowed to do anything at all unless we can find an instance of Jesus BY EXAMPLE demonstrating how to do it?

This truly is a very good question. Actually exoflare, it is two questions. The first is “what is my standard.” And the second is am I saying that you cannot do anything unless you see and instance of Jesus demonstrating it or teaching it.

So with regards to “my standard”, as you put it, I mentioned previously that while still a Catholic, I was affected tremendously by the following Islamic statement often repeated at the beginning of a Friday khutbah:

For verily, the best of speech is the speech of Allaah. And the best of guidance is the guidance of Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam. And the worst of matters are new practices in the religion. Every new practice is an innovation, and every innovation is a misguidance, and every misguidance is in the Hellfire.

Although I disagreed with Islaam at that time, I was very much attracted to the concept of truly following the one WHO YOU CLAIM TO FOLLOW. So I took this Islamic concept, and I made it my standard as a Christian. I was going to follow the sunnah (actions, teachings, sayings, and approvals) of Jesus. I decided to follow his teachings and only his teachings, because I called myself a CHRISTIAN. I then took the Islamic concept of ALL new religious practices, after Jesus, as being innovations that were misguidances and in the hellfire.

Here’s a hadeeth where Prophet Muhammad, sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallama, said:

“There is not one thing that shall bring you closer to the Paradise and away from the Fire without me having informed you of it, and there is not one thing that will take you away from paradise and towards the fire except that I have warned you about it.”

So I took the aforementioned concepts and this hadeeth and I applied it to my Catholic life. Jesus was my Lord and Savior. He was sent here to teach me how to attain salvation. He is my example. Surely, he, being God Himself, would have taught me everything I need to know. And surely, being God Himself, he would have warned me about everything that can lead to the hellfire. So my standard became Jesus teachings and that’s it. My standard became the red letters of the bible.

Answer to question #1
So from a Christian perspective, when I was a Christian, that was my standard. I hope this answers your first question.

Are you saying that we should not be allowed to do anything at all unless we can find an instance of Jesus BY EXAMPLE demonstrating how to do it?

Answer to question #2
I am not going to tell you about your beliefs. I can tell you what Islaam says your beliefs should be. I can tell you what I feel Jesus would want your beliefs to be. But really exoflare, you need to answer that question for yourself. If you are a Christian, by name, FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, then you should expect your religious beliefs to COMPLETELY line up with those that Jesus taught. You should expect to find teachings of Jesus to support ALL OF YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. There may not always be a verse showing Jesus demonstrating these specific actions. But if part of your belief includes concept “x”, than you should, at the very least, expect to find teachings of Jesus himself explaining concept “x”. Because if he is God, he would have taught you everything and would have not forgotten anything.

If you follow a religion called BLAHism and you consider yourself a follower of BLAH, then surely you would expect that your religious beliefs to be based on those of your Lord, BLAH. But if you follow BLAHism, and claim to follow BLAH himself, and at the same time, if you find your beliefs to be unsupported by the teachings of BLAH, then you must question yourself: are you really following BLAH? Are you really a BLAHion?

So exoflare, you need to ask yourself that question. It’s a gut check really…“the acid test.” Basically asking yourself if your Christian beliefs are based on Jesus alone or based on other than him. And if your beliefs are based on other than him, are you okay with that.

I was NOT okay with calling myself a Christian, having a great love in my heart for Jesus, peace be upon him, yet finding that I had beliefs that Jesus, peace be upon him, NEVER TAUGHT, ENCOURAGED OR APPROVED OF.

I, however, cannot enforce this on you. It is for you to ponder on.

 

[hawk]

Genesis315:

Well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself. He does let Mary intercede for the wedding guests at Cana. He also, at the Transfiguration communicates with two dead saints, Elijah and Moses:thumbsup: .

Wow, I wonder how they will deal with this, Elijah and Moses were dead, and they were with The Father and The Son, revealed in all His glory.

And doesnt Jesus say that Abraham rejoiced in heaven the day that He was born?

What else?

 

[Genesis315]

jcaz:

So I guess this means that you cannot find these verses. A HUGE portion of the foundation of your belief is the concept of calling upon other than Allaah for intercession. When I look Catholics to provide the biblical evidence for this, you respond by saying, well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself. Very true, if Jesus is God, there is no need to intercede with himself. But this “fact” does not relieve you of the burden of supplying evidence to support your belief of intercession. If this is such a foundational belief that Catholics involve in DAILY, SURELY you can find SEVERAL, SEVERAL verses where Jesus, peace be upon him, TAUGHT MANKIND how to do this. I mean, if he came to teach us, and this is a big thing, then SURELY these verses must be in the Bible. Right? So I am still waiting on the Catholics to show me these verses.

Well, let’s see. I gave you the wedding feast at Cana where we see the direct intercession and mediation of Mary (John 2).
We see Jesus conversing with the dead in Mark 9. So, if we can have someone intercede and we can converse with dead, we can have the dead intercede.

 

[jcaz]

Posted by hawk:

We dont have to agree with it, because as we know Jesus’ ministry was for three years, in that time he never got married, so we wouldnt, he never had children, so we wouldnt, at least according to the muslims in this forum.

No hawk. Talking with people like you , who claim to have an understanding of Islaam, yet make comments like that, is pointless!

You know very well that the sunnah refers to the actions, teachings, statements, and approvals of “so and so”. So if a Muslim claims that we should follow the sunnah of whoever it is we claim to follow, than obviously, that is not limited to only the actions of Jesus.

Your arguments are so devoid of logic, I should probably expect you to come and say, “so are you saying we should not use cars, as Jesus didn’t drive cars. We should stick with camels.”

This is the logic of your type. You know the replies to your statements, yet you make the statements anyway. Why? Who knows.

According to the islamic perspective, Christians who truly follow Jesus, peace be upon him, would have their beliefs completely molded on his actions, teachings, statements, and approvals.

 

[exoflare]

If you are a Christian, by name, FOLLOWER OF CHRIST, then you should expect your religious beliefs to COMPLETELY line up with those that Jesus taught. You should expect to find teachings of Jesus to support ALL OF YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. There may not always be a verse showing Jesus demonstrating these specific actions. But if part of your belief includes concept “x”, than you should, at the very least, expect to find teachings of Jesus himself explaining concept “x”. Because if he is God, he would have taught you everything and would have not forgotten anything.

Yeah, so where am I going to find Jesus’ teachings on, oh say… the moral ramifications on stem-cell research, cloning, or in-vitro fertilization, then? It’s these kind of things that expose the fatal flaw of taking a single static text as your one and only religious authority. Why do you think Islam itself used to have a caliph?

 

[Genesis315]

Originally Posted by jcaz
So I guess this means that you cannot find these verses. A HUGE portion of the foundation of your belief is the concept of calling upon other than Allaah for intercession. When I look Catholics to provide the biblical evidence for this, you respond by saying, well, Jesus as God-man doesn’t need to intercede with Himself. Very true, if Jesus is God, there is no need to intercede with himself. But this “fact” does not relieve you of the burden of supplying evidence to support your belief of intercession. If this is such a foundational belief that Catholics involve in DAILY, SURELY you can find SEVERAL, SEVERAL verses where Jesus, peace be upon him, TAUGHT MANKIND how to do this. I mean, if he came to teach us, and this is a big thing, then SURELY these verses must be in the Bible. Right? So I am still waiting on the Catholics to show me these verses.

Here’s another:

Revelation 5:6-8. Here we see the saints offering Jesus our prayers. In the passage the “ancients” are what we refer to now as canonized saints and the term “saints” is the broader use of the term meaning all Chrisitians.