Doesn't Matthew 28:19 prove God is Triune?

[MH84]

How do non-Trinitarians interpret this passage? For me, unless this verse was interpolated into the Gospel, there is no way that the Trinitarian doctrine can be rejected.

 

[Della]

The verse, for those who don’t have a Bible handy is:

Matt.28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”

It isn’t the verse that is the problem–it is the mind set/the preconceived ideas of those who take it upon themselves to interpret the Bible, although they have no authority from God to do so.

 

[kfp4]

couldn’t this passage alone also promote the possibility of 3 Gods? There are different ways of looking at single passages.

 

[Dauphin]

The Trinity is a Tradition of the Catholic Church. No passage from the Bible can prove it - only the authority of the Church herself.

 

[MH84]

couldn’t this passage alone also promote the possibility of 3 Gods? There are different ways of looking at single passages.

This is one of the proofs Im talking about. Jesus says to the disciples to baptise in the “name”, not “names” of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

If He said “names”, that would be a different story of course.

 

[wow]

couldn’t this passage alone also promote the possibility of 3 Gods? There are different ways of looking at single passages.

Joh 14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?

Jesus said he is in the Father and the Father is in him.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Note that it says

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…"

Name, singular, not names, plural. Three persons but one name.

 

[MH84]

Joh 14:11 Believe you not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?

Jesus said he is in the Father and the Father is in him.

I don’t think that verse is a “proof”, not to the extent of verse Matthew 28:19 anyway.

For starters, where is the Holy Spirit mentioned in John 14:11?

 

[MH84]

I would really like to see what a non-Trinitarian says about the OP…

 

[wow]

I don’t think that verse is a “proof”, not to the extent of verse Matthew 28:19 anyway.

For starters, where is the Holy Spirit mentioned in John 14:11?

Still looking…took care of two to show they were the same from the mouth of the Lord. Your example was very good.

 

[MH84]

Wow, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but dont go getting other verses from the bible. I have seen pretty much most of them by now. Otherwise what will happen is that this thread will divert into a whole new argument.

 

[wow]

Wow, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but dont go getting other verses from the bible. I have seen pretty much most of them by now. Otherwise what will happen is that this thread will divert into a whole new argument.

I agree and like I said your example is worth remembering.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I suppose I can repeat that message I sent to you.

With the baptism of Jesus he received the Holy Spirit and became God’s Word to the people from now on, though just a man. Then Jesus as Messiah and mediator can join us to God as well with the Holy Spirit so that we are all one in purpose and Spirit.

So baptism acknowledges that Jesus is tied to God through the Holy Spirit, and we are tied to Jesus and God through the Holy Spirit.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[MH84]

I suppose I can repeat that message I sent to you.

With the baptism of Jesus he received the Holy Spirit and became God’s Word to the people from now on, though just a man. Then Jesus as Messiah and mediator can join us to God as well with the Holy Spirit so that we are all one in purpose and Spirit.

So baptism acknowledges that Jesus is tied to God through the Holy Spirit, and we are tied to Jesus and God through the Holy Spirit.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Do you acknowledge the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person?

If not, how do you explain the Holy Spirit being part of the one “name” in 28:19?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Do you acknowledge the Holy Spirit is a distinct Person?

If not, how do you explain the Holy Spirit being part of the one “name” in 28:19?

I think it is just the active force of God on the world that unites men with God. When you say distinct person, that implies the Spirit has a mind of his own apart from God, which wouldn’t really serve any purpose.

It’s like if I am God in an analogy, everything that gets my post out to you is the Spirit, and the words of my post are God’s Words.

Then if you are like Jesus in this analogy you will absorb all of that and repeat those words perfectly and become one with me in my spirit and purpose, so you will become my word to the world.

Then if you pass it on to everyone else, they become one with you in the spirit and purpose, and since you are already one with me, all of you become one with me. But there is only one me.

Likewise only one God, and one Jesus with His Spirit and Word perfectly, both together united by the Spirit.

And then everyone else trying to be one with Jesus and God through the Spirit.

 

[MH84]

Someone whom I requested contribute to this thread has provided an argument below against the Trinitarian proof of Matthew 28:19:

Note the same singular expression “name” here in Gen 48:16

(Genesis 48:16) The angel who has been recovering me from all calamity, bless the boys. And let my name be called upon them and the name of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac, And let them increase to a multitude in the midst of the earth.”

Certainly the singular use of “name” doesn’t mean that Abraham and his son Isaac are a Trinity, right? Then, why read anything into it’s use here for YHWH and his son, Jesus?

At Matthew 28:19 reference is made to “the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.” A “name” can mean something other than a personal name. When, in English, we say, “in the name of the law,” or “in the name of common sense,” we have no reference to a person as such. By “name” in these expressions we mean ‘what the law stands for or its authority’ and ‘what common sense represents or calls for.’ The Greek term for “name” (o′no·ma) also can have this sense.

Even Trinitarians realize this…Thus, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1930, Vol. I, p. 245) says on Matthew 28:19: “The use of name (onoma) here is a common one in the Septuagint and the papyri for power or authority.” Hence baptism ‘in the name of the holy spirit’ implies recognition of that spirit as having its source in God and as exercising its function according to the divine will.

I have looked up some of the different English translations and I see different wordings of the same verse (Gn 48:16). I’ll post a few examples:

DR

The angel that delivereth me from all evils, bless these boys: and let my name be called upon them, and the names of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and may they grow into a multitude upon the earth.

RSV

the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and in them let my name be perpetuated, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth."

KJB

The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow F243 into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

bible.crosswalk.com/

It seems that Matthew 28:19 may not be that clear after all.

So, can anyone who can read the Greek scriptures contribute to this? Or anyone who can provide insight? thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Matt.28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”

How do non-Trinitarians interpret this passage? For me, unless this verse was interpolated into the Gospel, there is no way that the Trinitarian doctrine can be rejected.

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.
The Quran says that Jesus was only a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH to the Israelites, not to all the nations of the world. Jesus was also a Jew and he was as he said sent to implement the teachings of Torah. He was neither a Son of God nor God. My Catholic friends have a choice, either they consider it an interpolated sentence or they should believe Jesus only a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. I would go for the later.

Thanks

 

[MH84]

Hi

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.
The Quran says that Jesus was only a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH to the Israelites, not to all the nations of the world. Jesus was also a Jew and he was as he said sent to implement the teachings of Torah. He was neither a Son of God nor God. My Catholic friends have a choice, either they consider it an interpolated sentence or they should believe Jesus only a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. I would go for the later.

Thanks

Paarsurrey, please show your proof that the verse is an interpolation.

 

[Cathlacostal]

The verse, for those who don’t have a Bible handy is:

Matt.28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…”

It isn’t the verse that is the problem–it is the mind set/the preconceived ideas of those who take it upon themselves to interpret the Bible, although they have no authority from God to do so.

That last set of sentences was as refreshing to me as anything I’ve read in quite a while. Della is quite correct and shows braveness for saying something so unpopular today. Not one word of God’s written Word is up for private interpretation. Only the Church has the authority of interpretation.
Now, that said I find it healthy to study God’s Word and to even question it’s meaning. In the end, we must come to the realization that the Church is correct. Remember that Christ isn’t returning for individual believers but returning for His Church.
It’s not the Bible’s intent to prove anything. It gives us facts, the way to live and much to meditate upon. The Bible gives evidence, not proof as spiritual inspiration does not mesh well with mere humanity. It’s too easy to get it wrong (look at the Mormons).
There is much evidence of our Triune God besides the verse Matt. 28:19. As the book of Genesis opens, the Spirit of God is mentioned and then a profound statement is spoken of God, “Let US make man in OUR image.” and yet that’s not proof as some say He’s speaking to angels. Also in first John, it states there are three who bear record in heaven but again it’s not proof. St. Paul also echoed the words of Christ on Baptism but again it’s not proof. Even the authority of the Church provides no proof.
We need no proof. We need faith. Faith in God as well as Faith in His Church and Her authority to teach us properly. In today’s world, this can become confusing as so many groups are calling themselves “the Church” and show no true authority to do so. There are as many opinions in christendom as there are denominations. Divided, we are not the Church, together we have the authority.
So I’ll give my opinion on the question posed in the title to this thread: “Does Matt. 28:19 prove God is Triune?” No. It was an instruction to the Apostles and not intended as proof. Lean on faith not proof.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I have checked with the wikipedia , which contains following remarks:

The most familiar version of the Great Commission is depicted in the Gospel of Matthew 28:16-20:

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”(NIV)

Other versions of the Great Commission are found in Luke 24:44-49, Acts 1:4-8, and John 20:19-23. All these passages are composed as words of Christ spoken after his resurrection.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_28:19

Which means these sentences were perhaps added at a later stage.

Thanks