Dolan: Catholic Church needs better outreach to gays

[Tonks40]

Ok I think better understand you.

Being homosexual is no more, or less, objectively disorder than a heterosexual, , because of concupencense (sp?) we are all objectively disorder somehow, someway.

It’s just that the label is put on homosexuality and tends to marginalize them

(Not sure if I mirrored that back clearly? But I think I do get what you are saying. )

This is how I understand the Church’s teaching, and our society’s tendency towards the subject, also.

 

[Lucky7]

So am I to conclude that this is what VP Biden and Cardinal Dolan talked about after Palm Sunday Mass last week?

 

[livingwordunity]

So if a gay person never acted on their orientation, action wise, their being gay is not considered objectively disordered because they are not acting upon it?

Their “orientation” is a disordered temptation which is not a personal sin if not acted upon but which comes from original sin. Temptations to sin are a result concupiscence.

 

[StudentMI]

I think part of the problem concerns the use of the term ‘disordered.’ When people use the term, it comes across as if the one who is ‘disordered’ is mentally ill. It’s not the term that is the problem, but the lack of understanding of what it means on the part of the mainstream. JReducation has some great posts about it. I should look for them.

In A People of Hope, Cardinal Dolan said about this issue:

When somebody comes to me, as people often do, and says, “I must tell you, I am a homosexual,” or “I am gay,” I say “Well, thanks for your confidence. Nice to meet you, sit down, you’re welcome here, but as a matter of fact, no you’re not. You happen to be John Jones, who is a child of God and redeemed by the blood of his only begotten Son, destined to spend eternity with him. When God looks at you, he sees a work of art. That’s who you are. You happen to be sexually attracted to men, but that doesn’t define who you are.” Now, I happen to think that’s rather liberating, it’s ennobling, but our culture doesn’t see that. There’s the great challenge, to make people see that we are not our sexual urges.

 

[SalesianSDB]

The thing is, we are ALL objectively disordered. None of us is without sin. I think the problem in this debate is that we are calling out the sin of homosexual acts while ignoring our own sin (at the very least this is the perception if not the reality). It’s a dilemma we face as a Church. There is truth in the statement that we ought to pluck out the plank in our own eye before trying to remove the splinter from our neighbor’s. Yet we are also called to admonish our brother when he is in sin. Balancing these two Biblical Truths can be a challenge.

 

[EdmundPaul]

I don’t identify myself by my sexuality
most people I know don’t either
it sounds like for some people being ‘gay’ is all that matters
aren’t there more important parts to who we are than just our sexuality?
The complete focus on sexual preference (and sex) is what I feel is somewhat ‘disordered’

 

[Marie5890]

We all need to label ourselves as objectively disordered, and not place it only upon those who happen to be homosexual.

Negative labels on one group of people bares bad bad fruit…

 

[Slaney]

Being gay is not a sin, just like having cancer is not the inflicted persons fault, you can’t say to a cancer patient don’t be sick unless your Jesus, but you can say to a homosexual that they shouldn’t participate in sins of the flesh, which the Bible protestant & Catholic says condemn us to Hell…

 

[Dawnia]

The thing is, we are ALL objectively disordered. None of us is without sin. I think the problem in this debate is that we are calling out the sin of homosexual acts while ignoring our own sin (at the very least this is the perception if not the reality). It’s a dilemma we face as a Church. There is truth in the statement that we ought to pluck out the plank in our own eye before trying to remove the splinter from our neighbor’s. Yet we are also called to admonish our brother when he is in sin. Balancing these two Biblical Truths can be a challenge.

I think you are confused. People are not disordered (gay, straight or otherwise)…desires, urges, attractions, etc can be disordered.

The sin of homosexual behavior is being discussed because that is what this thread is about. If you want to discuss other sins…there are plenty of places on CAF to do so. (It would be a nice change)

 

[jay29]

It’s the gay sex that is the problem. Same way as any sex outside of a traditional marriage. All damnable offenses.

 

[Marie5890]

. All damnable offenses.

And because of Our Lord’s sacrifice, all forgivable.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I am sick and tired of it. I’m sick of the sugar coating and denials.

Any sex outside of a marriage between one man and one woman is a mortal sin. PERIOD. It can never be condoned nor accepted. These acts ARE NOT part of God’s Plan and are damnable offenses, unless Confessed before death, nor matter how many feelings are hurt proclaiming the truth and no matter how many people flee the pews. If you are not in a marriage designed by God, you are called to chastity.

God destroyed a city over homosexuality/acts. What doesn’t anyone understand?

Rant over.

So what, instead of

Wife: Does this dress make me look fat?
Husband: I like this dress more and I love you no matter what you wear

we should act like

Wife: Does this dress make me look fat?
Husband: LOL, not only does it look fat, but it makes you look like a beached whale!

?

 

[markeverett49]

Yep. The tough part is having a conversation that says. ‘Hi. I love you and God loves. By the way, you’re objectively disordered.’

Unless someone tells you he is gay, how would you know???
I have lots of conversations with gay people and never say that. But if one of them asks me if I’m for same-sex marriage, I say no. If they ask why, I tell them that too .A few times I’ve had gay people tell me that it is rude to say that there is anything “wrong” with their lifestyle. I always find this a curious thing to say—as if I never thought a heterosexual did anything wrong, or that I myself never did anything wrong!

 

[CopticChristian]

Two things, the Church teaches that homosexual acts are grave sins. A homosexual orientation is an objective disorder. I understand that many homosexuals do not like to hear this, but it is wrong to suggest that the Church should stop preaching this truth, ESPECIALLY when it is denied by droves of people daily.

As for judgmentalism, two things. One, to claim that a homosexual orientation is an objective disorder is NOT an example of being judgmental. A great example of being judgmental would be for someone who supports same-sex “marriage” to call anyone who opposes it a bigot. THAT is being judgmental.

The Church has a clear, consistent, and compassionate teaching on homosexuality. It could do a better job of countering distortions of that teaching.

The rub is that unlike other sinners, homosexuals want reconciliation without confessing their sins! This will never do.

Mark,

One thing we as Catholics should do is lead…words like

Homosexual
Gay
Homosexual person

are thrown around and many believe it is one thing or another and then reference the Catechism where we read Homosexual persons and some say…see the Church agrees that Homosexuals are people that have SSA and then SSA is not a homosexual…and it gets clouded…

Catholics should agree not to use the word gay as if that is the word of the day. The Catholic Medical Association has outlined some thoughts concerning Homosexuality and SSA.

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html

It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors.

When we label someone with the word Homosexual it may or may not be indicative of anything but SSA. When we label someone as Gay then that might mean that they are actively involved in the LGBT movement. Nicolosi makes the point that Gay=acceptance of and action on SSA and a personna.

Definition of terms is essential to be sure all speak the same language. Perhaps it may be best to say…someone that is SSA for all not assuming anything other than an attraction and thus not prejudicing our thoughts about the person and not suggesting any action on their part. To be SSA is not sin and to speak of someone in that tone is the most positive.

Guard against anyone saying…

Homosexuality is like the color of your eyes…you are born that way
The only Counseling for homosexuals is acceptance
The Church needs to change

I suggest that using SSA as opposed to Gay or Homosexual is in the best interest of no judgement of anyone and this thread would better be served by the use of that term.

Please note that this thread was not started by a Catholic.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

If a gay person never acted on his/her orientation, he/she hasn’t sinned. If he/she is attracted to someone of the same sex, he/she is still objectively disordered. That’s the difficult conversation to have.

Let me put it this way. A married man, objectively speaking should only desire sexual relations with his wife. To desire sexual relations with a woman that is not his wife is objectively disordered. God intended man to be with one woman, not multiple women. With that said, if the man does not act on that objectively disordered condition, he does not sin.

The objectively disordered condition applies to both homosexual and heterosexual persons.

The person is not objectively disordered, the (unbidden) desire for the intrinsic moral evil (sex with the same sex) is objectively disordered.

Ok I think better understand you.

Being homosexual is no more, or less, objectively disorder than a heterosexual, , because of concupencense (sp?) we are all objectively disorder somehow, someway.

It’s just that the label is put on homosexuality and tends to marginalize them

(Not sure if I mirrored that back clearly? But I think I do get what you are saying. )

There is nothing inherently objectively disordered about heterosexuality, homosexuality however is objectively disordered insofar as it is a desire for an intrinsic moral evil.

concupiscence mate.

I don’t identify myself by my sexuality
most people I know don’t either
it sounds like for some people being ‘gay’ is all that matters
aren’t there more important parts to who we are than just our sexuality?
The complete focus on sexual preference (and sex) is what I feel is somewhat ‘disordered’

Why do most Catholics when asked their religion say they are Catholic whereas Protestants answer that they are Christian?

Mark,

One thing we as Catholics should do is lead…words like

Homosexual
Gay
Homosexual person

are thrown around and many believe it is one thing or another and then reference the Catechism where we read Homosexual persons and some say…see the Church agrees that Homosexuals are people that have SSA and then SSA is not a homosexual…and it gets clouded…

Catholics should agree not to use the word gay as if that is the word of the day. The Catholic Medical Association has outlined some thoughts concerning Homosexuality and SSA.

catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0039.html

When we label someone with the word Homosexual it may or may not be indicative of anything but SSA. When we label someone as Gay then that might mean that they are actively involved in the LGBT movement. Nicolosi makes the point that Gay=acceptance of and action on SSA and a personna.

Definition of terms is essential to be sure all speak the same language. Perhaps it may be best to say…someone that is SSA for all not assuming anything other than an attraction and thus not prejudicing our thoughts about the person and not suggesting any action on their part. To be SSA is not sin and to speak of someone in that tone is the most positive.

Guard against anyone saying…

Homosexuality is like the color of your eyes…you are born that way
The only Counseling for homosexuals is acceptance
The Church needs to change

I suggest that using SSA as opposed to Gay or Homosexual is in the best interest of no judgement of anyone and this thread would better be served by the use of that term.

Please note that this thread was not started by a Catholic.

Oh no, someone should reprimand that horrible person named JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER for writing “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS” for giving in to secularists in using the term “homosexual persons”.

 

[CopticChristian]

The person is not objectively disordered, the (unbidden) desire for the intrinsic moral evil (sex with the same sex) is objectively disordered.

There is nothing inherently objectively disordered about heterosexuality, homosexuality however is objectively disordered insofar as it is a desire for an intrinsic moral evil.

concupiscence mate.

Why do most Catholics when asked their religion say they are Catholic whereas Protestants answer that they are Christian?

Oh no, someone should reprimand that horrible person named JOSEPH CARDINAL RATZINGER for writing “LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS” for giving in to secularists in using the term “homosexual persons”.

Dakota,

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Emeretis agrees with me…if you read the document found here…

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

1. The issue of homosexuality and the moral evaluation of homosexual acts have increasingly become a matter of public debate, even in Catholic circles. Since this debate often advances arguments and makes assertions inconsistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church, it is quite rightly a cause for concern to all engaged in the pastoral ministry, and this Congregation has judged it to be of sufficiently grave and widespread importance to address to the Bishops of the Catholic Church this Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.

Homosexual acts is the main concern of the letter as noted.

The Church is thus in a position to learn from scientific discovery but also to transcend the horizons of science and to be confident that her more global vision does greater justice to the rich reality of the human person in his spiritual and physical dimensions, created by God and heir, by grace, to eternal life.

The Church learns from Scientific Discovery and the Catholic Medical Association document concerning Hope for Homosexuals is the result of a 2 year study therefore consistent with what the Church asks, we learn.

Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity.

The document repeatedly expresses concern over Homosexual actions or those that are in activity rather than SSA.

It brings together under the aegis of Catholicism homosexual persons who have no intention of abandoning their homosexual behaviour.

The document points out that the Church will not change or accept homosexual behavior.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase

Concerning disorder, you and I know both that it is the acts and therefore the Homosexual person in this letter is one that is acting on inclination.

The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation. Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.

The Pope Emeritus concludes as do I with caution not to label people by reducing them to their sexual preference as is stated by the Catholic Medical Association…every person is a creature of God and by grace a child of God…not gay, not homosexual, not heterosexual or SSA…just a creature waiting for redemption…

The Catholic Medical Association says this…

**It is, therefore, probably wise to avoid wherever possible using the words “homosexual” and “heterosexual” as nouns since such usage implies a fixed state and an equivalence between the natural state of man and woman as created by God and persons experiencing same sex attractions or behaviors. **

I say this…

I suggest that using SSA as opposed to Gay or Homosexual is in the best interest of no judgement of anyone and this thread would better be served by the use of that term.

and the document says this…

The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation.

Thanks for pointing this out…

 

[Slaney]

Why do most Catholics when asked their religion say they are Catholic whereas Protestants answer that they are Christian?

Catholic means Universal, protest-antism is negative, not universal, it opposes unity by it’s very nature,that would be it’s name… protesting !

 

[RobbyS]

While there are Catholics who believe that a person’s simple identification of themselves as a homosexual is a sin, he’s not going to get very far.

He needs to do some preaching to the choir first. The things I’ve read even on this forum have sometimes made my hair stand on end in their judgementalism. I think a lot of people need to learn humility - from the top down. Following the example of our Holy Father in his simple and loving humility would be an excellent start.

It should be the same as outreach to the woman caught in adultery. We do not condemn you; But} go and sin no more. The homosexuals are doing no outreach. Not only do they acknowledge no sin but they wish us to say that their deeds are means of grace.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

"Dakota Roberts:

The person is not objectively disordered, the (unbidden) desire for the intrinsic moral evil (sex with the same sex) is objectively disordered.

I think you are confused. People are not disordered (gay, straight or otherwise)…desires, urges, attractions, etc can be disordered.

The sin of homosexual behavior is being discussed because that is what this thread is about. If you want to discuss other sins…there are plenty of places on CAF to do so. (It would be a nice change)

No, I’m not confused. If anything, I may not have been clear enough in expressing my opinion. I agree that it is the desires, urges, attraction, etc. that can be disordered and not the person him/herself.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Unless someone tells you he is gay, how would you know???
I have lots of conversations with gay people and never say that. But if one of them asks me if I’m for same-sex marriage, I say no. If they ask why, I tell them that too .A few times I’ve had gay people tell me that it is rude to say that there is anything “wrong” with their lifestyle. I always find this a curious thing to say—as if I never thought a heterosexual did anything wrong, or that I myself never did anything wrong!

The crux of the matter is that heterosexuality is not disordered in the context of marriage and homosexuality is disordered no matter how you look at it. The difficulty is being able to express this to a homosexual person that acting on their homosexuality is never okay and that me acting on my heterosexuality is okay but only in the context of marriage.