Dolan: Whoever thinks he could be next Pope must be on dope

[Lucky7]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.

Yeah, I guess so.

And if you are a priest, I’m guessing that most of the Catholics that you speak of are the Catholics in your parish. Is it fair to say that they too are pro-choice, by and large? Or is that judging?

 

[PaulinVA]

Yes, but latae sententiae excommunication is also not cut and dry. There are numerous sets of circumstances (canon 1323) that might cause the penalty not to have taken place, not to mention the local ordinary has the authority to remit canonical penalties (canon 1355 & 1356).

Yes, I do understand that. However, is the default that she didn’t know or that she did know that her actions would result in excommunication? She can’t say, since she died while killing her child. Do any Catholics actually not know the Church’s position on this?

Anyway, the frustration is first that you read a story in the paper about a woman dying during a late-term abortion, and then, OF COURSE she was a Catholic. In the next paragraph, the Catholic funeral is already scheduled. I’m shaking my head.

Is our religion really one of loopholes and “oh, it really doesn’t apply in this case”?

 

[Lucky7]

Yes, I do understand that. However, is the default that she didn’t know or that she did know that her actions would result in excommunication? She can’t say, since she died while killing her child. Do any Catholics actually not know the Church’s position on this?

Anyway, the frustration is first that you read a story in the paper about a woman dying during a late-term abortion, and then, OF COURSE she was a Catholic. In the next paragraph, the Catholic funeral is already scheduled. I’m shaking my head.

Is our religion really one of loopholes and “oh, it really doesn’t apply in this case”?

I’ll admit that I am furious with the way things seem to be, so take my response with a grain of salt.

Lately, it does seem as if our Faith has been watered down to “loopholes”. Just once I’d like to see a leader take a stand and be courageous. Do the thing that the majority of people/Catholics won’t like. When I think of what saints like Thomas More did to stand up for the Faith, I cringe at the state of our Church. I can only imagine what he thinks.

I really pray that the New Pope changes things.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Yes, I do understand that. However, is the default that she didn’t know or that she did know that her actions would result in excommunication? She can’t say, since she died while killing her child. Do any Catholics actually not know the Church’s position on this?

I would venture a guess that while 99% of Catholics know the Church’s moral position on abortion the vast majority do not know the Church’s canonical penalties for abortion.

Anyway, the frustration is first that you read a story in the paper about a woman dying during a late-term abortion, and then, OF COURSE she was a Catholic. In the next paragraph, the Catholic funeral is already scheduled. I’m shaking my head.

Is our religion really one of loopholes and “oh, it really doesn’t apply in this case”?

It’s a matter of perspective. Is it a loophole? Or is it merely a merciful and loving thing to pray for the dead?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

When I think of what saints like Thomas More did to stand up for the Faith, I cringe at the state of our Church. I can only imagine what he thinks.

St. Thomas More remained absolutely silent until he was found guilty. He even acknowledged Anne as Queen of England. St. Thomas More did not publicly do much of anything. He ultimately paid the price for his faith but he did not stand up and declare his opposition to the King’s policies.

 

[Lucky7]

I would venture a guess that while 99% of Catholics know the Church’s moral position on abortion the vast majority do not know the Church’s canonical penalties for abortion.

Why don’t they know? And shouldn’t they know…especailly if they are pro-choice?

 

[Lucky7]

St. Thomas More remained absolutely silent until he was found guilty. He even acknowledged Anne as Queen of England. St. Thomas More did not publicly do much of anything. He ultimately paid the price for his faith but he did not stand up and declare his opposition to the King’s policies.

At his trial, Thomas More* testified boldly *for Church autonomy over the state, for the authority of the Pope as head of the Church, and for the indissolubility of marriage in the eyes of God–even when he knew he would die for it.

catholiccompany.com/blog/thomas-more-john-fisher-martyrs-faith-freedom

He refused to attend the coronation of Queen Anne. He refused to endorse the King’s divorce. He refused to recognize Henry as supreme head of the church in England.

He most certainly stood up for the Faith. He may not have said a lot but actions speak louder than words.

 

[PaulinVA]

It’s a matter of perspective. Is it a loophole? Or is it merely a merciful and loving thing to pray for the dead?

Father, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Under the guise of pastoral care, genuinely loving and caring Priests do what they want.

Does being given the keys really mean that no matter how many pages of black and white canons are written, no matter how many pronouncements there are, individual Priests and Bishops are able to do as they please in individual instances, because they can always read the canons to support their position?

I ask this respectfully and in hope of understanding how the Church really operates.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Father, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Under the guise of pastoral care, genuinely loving and caring Priests do what they want.

I don’t think its a “guise” of pastoral care but rather is their sincere understanding of the Church’s teachings.

Does being given the keys really mean that no matter how many pages of black and white canons are written, no matter how many pronouncements there are, individual Priests and Bishops are able to do as they please in individual instances, because they can always read the canons to support their position?

I ask this respectfully and in hope of understanding how the Church really operates.

I think we need to remember that excommunication is a medicinal penalty, its purpose is to prick the conscience of the individual and bring them back into full communion with the Church. You are claiming the canons are “black and white” but they also are black and white it terms of the local ordinary’s authority to remit the penalty. If someone is deceased then the point of continuing the penalties of excommunication could appear to be moot. Funeral Masses are not canonizations, they exist to pray for the forgiveness of the sins of the deceased.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

At his trial, Thomas More* testified boldly ***for Church autonomy over the state, for the authority of the Pope as head of the Church, and for the indissolubility of marriage in the eyes of God–even when he knew he would die for it.

catholiccompany.com/blog/thomas-more-john-fisher-martyrs-faith-freedom

Indeed, he spoke against the marriage at his trial after his conviction:
law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/more/moretrialreport.html

He refused to attend the coronation of Queen Anne. He refused to endorse the King’s divorce. He refused to recognize Henry as supreme head of the church in England.

Indeed, however it is noted by several sources that he did recognize Anne as Queen of England. Even if he didn’t reconize her as Queen, he never said so. On the matter of Henry as the supreme head he also remained silent and refused to take the oath.

As the Catholic Encyclopedia notes:

Anxious to avoid a public rupture with Henry he stayed away from Anne Boleyn’s coronation, and when, in 1533, his nephew William Rastell wrote a pamphlet supporting the pope, which was attributed to More, he wrote a letter to Cromwell disclaiming any share therein and declaring that he knew his duty to his prince too well to criticize his policy…In April and May, 1535, Cromwell visited him in person to demand his opinion of the new statutes conferring on Henry the title of Supreme Head of the Church. More refused to give any answer beyond declaring himself a faithful subject of the king.

He most certainly stood up for the Faith. He may not have said a lot but actions speak louder than words.

Moore appears to have stayed publicly silent on the controversial matters. More’s defense at trial was that he spoke his personal opinion to the King in private and in public was his loyal servant. This would seem to be in contradiction to what you are looking for the bishops to be doing.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think we need to remember that excommunication is a medicinal penalty, its purpose is to prick the conscience of the individual and bring them back into full communion with the Church. You are claiming the canons are “black and white” but they also are black and white it terms of the local ordinary’s authority to remit the penalty. If someone is deceased then the point of continuing the penalties of excommunication could appear to be moot. Funeral Masses are not canonizations, they exist to pray for the forgiveness of the sins of the deceased.

I am not trying to be vindictive or mean to people. But, to me it seems that there is just so much the Church does that makes us look bad to non Catholics looking in. Well, and to Catholics looking around, too.

I am glad that the Church, and her representatives, is merciful. I certainly need that mercy. I was raised in a black and white era, and the grey gives me fits sometimes.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Why don’t they know? And shouldn’t they know…especailly if they are pro-choice?

Why would they know? Most Catholics who go to Mass and pray don’t spend their time looking up or reading about canon law.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I am not trying to be vindictive or mean to people. But, to me it seems that there is just so much the Church does that makes us look bad to non Catholics looking in. Well, and to Catholics looking around, too.

I understand that you’re not trying to be mean or vindictive. The salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church, we’re just discussing the best ways to implement that.

I am glad that the Church, and her representatives, is merciful. I certainly need that mercy. I was raised in a black and white era, and the grey gives me fits sometimes.

Indeed. We will all stand before Jesus Christ who will judge us guilty of our sins but, hopefully, remit our eternal punishment…

 

[Lucky7]

Why would they know? Most Catholics who go to Mass and pray don’t spend their time looking up or reading about canon law.

They would know if they were taught. Since many, if not most, Catholics are pro-choice, I would think that parish priests would make a point of educating their parishioners about abortion and excommunication. The average Catholic in the US should know the connection.

This is why I say that bishops should make excommunications (and refusal of communion) public even though they don’t have to. It would help educate the Catholic masses about just how serious it is to support abortion. It might make them re-think their positions.

I’m not sure why anyone would argue with educating Catholics more. Clearly there is a catechesis problem in this country. Maybe there would be less pro-choice Catholics if there was more catechesis on the matter ( and I happen to think that part of fixing that problem is providing pro-choice politicians as examples).

And yes, I do expect the leaders of the Church …whether priest, bishop or Pope…to lay it on the line. I’m really tired of the wishy washy homilies and the political mumbo jumbo. I think down deep inside people want the hard truth (and need the hard truth). It can be said in love and in charity, but it needs to be said. And oftentimes, it is NOT being said. Rather, we get a watered down version of the Catholic Faith.

 

[Lucky7]

Moore appears to have stayed publicly silent on the controversial matters. More’s defense at trial was that he spoke his personal opinion to the King in private and in public was his loyal servant. This would seem to be in contradiction to what you are looking for the bishops to be doing.

The thing is St Thomas More was a subject of King Henry, so it made a bit difficult to be outspoken. Staying silent and refusing to act was the prudent thing to do. I suspect that if he was not subject to the King that he would have no problem speaking up for the Faith. On the contrary, none of our bishops are subject to the governors of their state. They should be speaking out and speaking up.

 

[JamesCaruso]

du·plic·i·ty (d-pls-t, dy-)n. pl. du·plic·i·ties
**1. ****
a. ** Deliberate deceptiveness in behavior or speech.
**b. ** An instance of deliberate deceptiveness; double-dealing.

**2. ** The quality or state of being twofold or double.

Wow!

Deliberate deceptiveness in… speech. You could say that about Christ who spoke in parables so that certain listeners would not understand what he was saying. Cleverness and wisdom in speech is not necessarily a bad trait.

 

[JamesCaruso]

I tend to agree with you in that Cardinal Dolan is a very charming, charismatic person and seems to be a born leader. A leader has to be wily in certain situations and bide his time in certain things. He can’t go around fighting with everyone. And let’s face it, with the way things are in our country and world, there are plenty of things to fight about.
As for his sense of humor…to me, it’s a way for him to put off the wolfish media. They’re out for blood when it comes to all things Christian and Catholic in particular. And I think there’s something wrong with a person lacking in humor. Seriousness to the point of fanaticism is never a good thing.

Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. Matthew 10:16

 

[ProVobis]

This is why I say that bishops should make excommunications (and refusal of communion) public even though they don’t have to. It would help educate the Catholic masses about just how serious it is to support abortion. It might make them re-think their positions.

I’m not saying excommunication is a bad idea, but I’d like to remind you that there are many non-Catholics who re-think their positions on abortion. So certainly there are more positive ways to do this.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I’m not saying excommunication is a bad idea, but I’d like to remind you that there are many non-Catholics who re-think their positions on abortion. So certainly there are more positive ways to do this.

Exactly…it’s a hospital for sinners…so to me the solution is not to kick out the sick people and make examples of them. But to pray for them…for their conversion…especially in this area. We all need conversion in some area of our lives.

I particularly like how our priest does it…you won’t hear him talk about the evils of abortion WITHOUT hearing him talk about reconciliation.

 

[JamesCaruso]

…it’s a hospital for sinners…

I like that!

Instead of discharging them to go home and die with a fatal disease, we need to bring all our knowledge and tools to bear on curing the disease. The patient, of course, has to be willing to undergo treatment. We can’t hold anyone against their will. And if it’s especially contagious, we might have to move them to a special lock down ward to protect the rest of the patients. :stretcher: Also, we must protect the staff, the doctors and nurses, who themselves are susceptible to disease. We certainly need Our Lord, Mary, and all the angels and saints to help us, otherwise, it’s a hospital in which everyone is at least a little bit ill, even the doctors and nurses.