Dolan: Whoever thinks he could be next Pope must be on dope

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He doesn’t sound like Joe Jerk the ragman to me. Here’s part of that interview:

Interviewer: You are still busy dealing with local problems since Governor Cuomo said he wished to get rid of the final bans on late-term abortions.

Cardinal Dolan:** “I hope this will not be the case. New York is already the national capital of abortion. We don’t need to add to this.”**

Interviewer: What role will Joseph Ratzinger play in the Conclave?

Cardinal Dolan: **“An extraordinary spiritual role. His example, his prayer: all this will have a great impact. But I don’t foresee him playing any other role because he has already, with characteristic humility, said that he does not want to have any direct influence in the conclave.” **

Interviewer: Observers see you as a favorite for the papacy.

Cardinal Dolan: **"I’d say those are only from people smoking marijuana.”
**
Interviewer: But the philosopher Michael Novak said it’s time for an English speaking candidate to be considered for the post.

Cardinal Dolan: “We’ve already had one: Both Wojtyla and Ratzinger speak English very well.”

Interviewer: Novak was also referring to the cultural contribution a U.S. Pope could make acting as a crossroads between European and Hispanic cultures. Was he wrong?

Cardinal Dolan:** “Novak is a very intelligent person and what he says always makes sense.”.
**

True, Cardinal Dolan is down to earth in his choice of language, reminiscent of first century fishermen, from which came some of the first bishops of the Church. One does not need to be Oxford educated, impeccable in speech, and of kingly bearing to become a worthy representative of the Church. He should be “especially outstanding in doctrine, morals, piety, and prudence in action.” (Canon 351 § 1 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law) No one has said he is not all of these. In addition, Cardinal Dolan connects with the common man, much as I imagine several of the original Apostles did.
 
Lucky7 said:
Talk about irrelevant. This is a bishop speaking on how this canon applies…and he applies it to politicians who support legalizing abortion. I can’t think of a better way to directly support massive numbers of abortion than voting to legalize it. Now if you can come up with a Church leader who supports your view then by all means post it. But don’t disregard this Bishop simply because he is from some other diocese/Spain.

And I just don’t get why this Bishop’s view somehow is the opposite/irrelevant when talking about the woman who had an abortion. He wasn’t referring to women having an abortion. The Canon law obviously includes those who actually procure an abortion.

I get how you feel about her. I get really do get it. I get the mercy part. However, she had an abortion. Your feelings for her are getting in the way of that fact…and that act automatically excommunicated her whether we like it or not.

No one said she does not need our prayer. No one wishes to condemn her to Hell. My issue is that every time the Church goes against its own laws (and the public hears about it) it causes, at the very least, confusion. If the laws can be broken, then why do we have them? And if the Church breaks its own laws what message does that give to the Catholics who seem to think they can break the Church rules they think don’t apply?
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Lucky7 said:
Talk about irrelevant. This is a bishop speaking on how this canon applies…and he applies it to politicians who support legalizing abortion. I can’t think of a better way to directly support massive numbers of abortion than voting to legalize it. Now if you can come up with a Church leader who supports your view then by all means post it. But don’t disregard this Bishop simply because he is from some other diocese/Spain.

And I just don’t get why this Bishop’s view somehow is the opposite/irrelevant when talking about the woman who had an abortion. He wasn’t referring to women having an abortion. The Canon law obviously includes those who actually procure an abortion.

I get how you feel about her. I get really do get it. I get the mercy part. However, she had an abortion. Your feelings for her are getting in the way of that fact…and that act automatically excommunicated her whether we like it or not.

No one said she does not need our prayer. No one wishes to condemn her to Hell. My issue is that every time the Church goes against its own laws (and the public hears about it) it causes, at the very least, confusion. If the laws can be broken, then why do we have them? And if the Church breaks its own laws what message does that give to the Catholics who seem to think they can break the Church rules they think don’t apply?
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What I AM saying is that only the Bishop for each diocese has the purview to decide how Canon Law applies to his flock. So some quote from some other Bishop does not apply. Also I believe I have said in SOME detail that YOU do not know all the facts and therefore it is not YOUR call. There are many decisions that are shepards might make that YOU WILL NOT KNOW all the facts…so stop trying to make that call! Did you listen to the Gospel at all today? Because you sound very much like the other son…

Bottom line…Canon Law is confusing…none of us will know all the facts. It can be interpreted differently. My Bishop has no right to decide what goes on in your diocese. Therefore some Bishop in Spain who makes a comment on it…while it can apply for his flock…has no authority over other diocese. Only the Pope has authority over it all.

So lets stop whining about how someone wasn’t judged on how you think they should be and worry about our own souls and salvation.

By the way…procuring an abortion isn’t automatic excommunication…someone could buy one…go in…and have a change of heart and leave…a completed abortion is.

I’m not saying that abortion isn’t evil and should not be fought against and prayed for it to end. But you see more focused on the fact that the letter of the law wasn’t carried out to your satisfaction…
 
Did he not invite Obama to that dinner…

We will see who is elected.

‘Give us the pope we need, not the one we deserve.’
 
Carolus_Martell said:
While that response may be OK for Joe jerk the ragman, it is unbecoming for an ordained Cardinal, a possible vicar of Christ. He should shut his pie hole and observe that edict of silence.
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One…he said this before he went to Rome…two…I don’t believe saying that someone should shut…"""""" is a respectful way to be discussing the clergy…especially a Cardinal.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
What I AM saying is that only the Bishop for each diocese has the purview to decide how Canon Law applies to his flock. So some quote from some other Bishop does not apply. Also I believe I have said in SOME detail that YOU do not know all the facts and therefore it is not YOUR call. There are many decisions that are shepards might make that YOU WILL NOT KNOW all the facts…so stop trying to make that call! Did you listen to the Gospel at all today? Because you sound very much like the other son…

Bottom line…Canon Law is confusing…none of us will know all the facts. It can be interpreted differently. My Bishop has no right to decide what goes on in your diocese. Therefore some Bishop in Spain who makes a comment on it…while it can apply for his flock…has no authority over other diocese. Only the Pope has authority over it all.

So lets stop whining about how someone wasn’t judged on how you think they should be and worry about our own souls and salvation.

By the way…procuring an abortion isn’t automatic excommunication…someone could buy one…go in…and have a change of heart and leave…a completed abortion is.

I’m not saying that abortion isn’t evil and should not be fought against and prayed for it to end. But you see more focused on the fact that the letter of the law wasn’t carried out to your satisfaction…
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And who is judging who now? But I am sure that’s not really how you want to come off, right? The reality is we all have a bit of both sons in us, so quit making yourself out to be better than I am. My concerns are not trying to make me look better than others. My concerns are bigger than that.

Perhaps this particular instance was different. I’ll give you that. However, considering the number of “completed” abortions by Catholics, how many times do you see bishops following canon law? That is my issue. It is by far the exception, not the rule to follow the rules…at least in the US. And when I start ot see the rules followed more than I will believe that the American Church thinks they are relevant.

And with that, I’m done with this thread.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
So lets stop whining about how someone wasn’t judged on how you think they should be and worry about our own souls and salvation.

By the way…procuring an abortion isn’t automatic excommunication…someone could buy one…go in…and have a change of heart and leave…a completed abortion is.

I’m not saying that abortion isn’t evil and should not be fought against and prayed for it to end. But you see more focused on the fact that the letter of the law wasn’t carried out to your satisfaction…
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I have been giving this a lot of thought and prayer over the past few weeks, and talked to my confessor over the weekend. He is a canon lawyer.

Yesterday’s Gospel - the prodigal son - really sums up the Church’s position, it seems. The forgiveness aspect is the default when a question on what to do occurs. I think this led to the sex abuse scandal, in that the priests were forgiven and moved on.

So, we all expect mercy. Should we get upset when someone else is shown mercy? Off course not; we hope the same mercy is shown to us. Where does that leave us, though? It looks like the Church never disciplines anyone. I don’t know. Does it turn out that we really aren’t a Church of laws and rules? Or, are we just squishy in their application?
 
Lucky7 said:
Talk about irrelevant. This is a bishop speaking on how this canon applies…and he applies it to politicians who support legalizing abortion. I can’t think of a better way to directly support massive numbers of abortion than voting to legalize it. Now if you can come up with a Church leader who supports your view then by all means post it. But don’t disregard this Bishop simply because he is from some other diocese/Spain.
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Canon 1398 simply does not apply to politicians and their votes. There is no controversy/debate amongst canon lawyers over its non-application to politicians.

Lifesitenews was playing a little fast and loose with the bishop’s words. He does says those who support abortion are in grave sin and cannot receive communion but he mentions excommunication only in reference to those who directly cooperate in abortion.
 
Lucky7 said:
And who is judging who now? But I am sure that’s not really how you want to come off, right? The reality is we all have a bit of both sons in us, so quit making yourself out to be better than I am. My concerns are not trying to make me look better than others. My concerns are bigger than that.

Perhaps this particular instance was different. I’ll give you that. However, considering the number of “completed” abortions by Catholics, how many times do you see bishops following canon law? That is my issue. It is by far the exception, not the rule to follow the rules…at least in the US. And when I start ot see the rules followed more than I will believe that the American Church thinks they are relevant.

And with that, I’m done with this thread.
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Admittedly I have been frustrated with post because it just seems that you are not willing to even consider that there are things that you don’t know when it comes to the individual state of peoples souls…or “law” being applied consistantly. Perhaps that’s not how you meant it…but that is how it appears to be coming across. I never said I wasn’t both sons…nor that I was better then you…how would I possibly know that off of a few of your posts on the internet?

I’m not sure why we would “see” Bishops/priests following canon law. A “completed” abortion may not be made public…certainly a automatic excommunication would not be public. How would you know? How would I know? Just because you don’t see everything that goes on…doesn’t mean that “rules” are not followed consistantly. Much as just because we don’t see punishments here and now…doesn’t mean that there aren’t any in the world to come…all of us included in that one.

The Church and her Canon Law…is not a black/white type of world. Just as Jesus was not a black/white type of messiah.
 
PaulinVA said:
I have been giving this a lot of thought and prayer over the past few weeks, and talked to my confessor over the weekend. He is a canon lawyer.

Yesterday’s Gospel - the prodigal son - really sums up the Church’s position, it seems. The forgiveness aspect is the default when a question on what to do occurs. I think this led to the sex abuse scandal, in that the priests were forgiven and moved on.

So, we all expect mercy. Should we get upset when someone else is shown mercy? Off course not; we hope the same mercy is shown to us. Where does that leave us, though? It looks like the Church never disciplines anyone. I don’t know. Does it turn out that we really aren’t a Church of laws and rules? Or, are we just squishy in their application?
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I am humbled by your approach to looking at this.

I do think we don’t always see when the Church disciplines. Much as I would not know what penance you received in reconciliation…and you would not know mine. It doesn’t mean we didn’t both receive them…although one time I almost got out of there without one:D
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
I am humbled by your approach to looking at this.

I do think we don’t always see when the Church disciplines. Much as I would not know what penance you received in reconciliation…and you would not know mine. It doesn’t mean we didn’t both receive them…although one time I almost got out of there without one:D
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Thank you. I’m trying to learn. Personally, I find myself right now more like the older son in the parable, although I was the prodigal at one point. The older son wasn’t in a good place, was he? Everything was great until he came back! The older son doesn’t know the good deal he has, he just looks at the deal the little brother has.
 
Lucky7 said:
And who is judging who now? But I am sure that’s not really how you want to come off, right? The reality is we all have a bit of both sons in us, so quit making yourself out to be better than I am. My concerns are not trying to make me look better than others. My concerns are bigger than that.

Perhaps this particular instance was different. I’ll give you that. However, considering the number of “completed” abortions by Catholics, how many times do you see bishops following canon law? That is my issue. It is by far the exception, not the rule to follow the rules…at least in the US. And when I start ot see the rules followed more than I will believe that the American Church thinks they are relevant.

And with that, I’m done with this thread.
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I realize you’ve said you’re through with this thread, but I’ll register my take on this anyway.

I think there is a difference in the rule of automatic excommunication and the decision to allow for a Catholic funeral and burial.

The automatic excommunication assumes all the requirements of mortal sin have been met, that is, the person knows what they are doing is a grave sin, they give it sufficient reflection, and they give it full consent of their will, no question of mental incompetency. If all these requirements are met, the person is automatically excommunicated and cannot be allowed a Catholic burial.

But the Church cannot manufacture sin. It cannot make “no sin” or venial sin into grave sin. Only grave sin can result in excommunication, automatic or otherwise. That is what excommunication contemplates-- that a person is guilty of grave sin.

So, what priest on earth can pronounce a deceased person guilty of mortal sin at their death? If there is reasonable doubt, what is a priest to do? How is he defying a Church Cannon when it is impossible to determine the state of the person’s soul? And it is the state of the person’s soul that determines whether a person should be given a Catholic burial. Laws of the Church don’t make culpability except in the sense that what appears to be the case (the state of the person’s soul) is actually the case, and that is known only to God, and only to a limited (and uncertain) degree to us if enough facts are known (which they rarely are). If I were a priest, I would be hard-pressed to assume the person was automatically excommunicated, even if it seemed so. 🙂

If one must err, it is always better to err on the side of mercy. If the person went to hell, I am sure in the economy of the spiritual world, our prayers for the damned soul are reapplied by Our Lord to wherever they are most needed. It’s a win-win. How unfortunate for the soul assumed to be in hell that no one will pray for them, for in purgatory, suffering souls cannot pray for themselves.
 
Has Cardinal Dolan counseled the Catholic lawmakers in his archdiocese that are in favor of abortion?

Wouldn’t we all want a pope who would at least do that?
 
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