Dominican Sister of St. Cecilia under fire by students for talk on homosexuality

[JimG]

kpeople:

The only concern I had about this whole thing was NOT the homosexuality stuff, but rather about single or divorced parents. It would be very easy to take this subject out of context, if for example you were a student or a parent from such a household.

The RCC has invested untold amounts of money in helping single mothers and their children to counter the culture of death, more specifically, the crime of abortion. Our Church rightly helps single mothers who have made the choice NOT to abort, or give those who are thinking about it an alternative to murdering the unborn.

These mothers who go on to raise their kids, and go a step further and enroll them into a Catholic school, should not have to hear from anyone dedicated to a life of prayer and service to Our Lord, that they are somehow without morals when clearly they have picked up their cross and followed the Lord.

Now… I am not saying that is what Sister did in her speech. Frankly I don’t know, because I have not been able to find a transcript of her speech. I hope this is not the case, and what we have are a bunch of students and parents that have been poorly catechized.

That just leaves divorced /annulled parents. Sometimes, separating from an abusive or utterly sinful spouse is the only way to protect their children and again, I hope they were not lumped into the basket of immorality in a High School speech.
:coolinoff:

I agree with what you say here, and I suspect that the Sister would agree too, but we are just speculating on the content of her talk. It is rather a truism to discuss the decline of the intact family in recent years. If that’s what she was discussing, it can be very difficult for persons in such situations not to take it as a personal attack. I’ve noticed the same thing on CAF. One might note the rapidly increasing out of wedlock birth rate, for example. That’s a bad thing for a society; but making note of the fact is not a personal attack on anyone. Again, I’m just guessing about the content of her talk. And yet it seems to have been well received elsewhere.

(It’s also true of course that we should always support women who choose life and not abortion, without at the same time supporting pre-marital sex.)

 

[Dawnia]

I don’t know. Nowhere in the petition does it say that they’re protesting because she said the Church opposes same-sex physicality or views it’s sinful. It merely counters points she supposedly made (gays can’t be monogamous, children raised by gays have problems). To be completely honest, I would have signed that petition if I was at that rally and heard her say that gay people raise screwed-up children or that gay people can’t be monogamous, because nowhere in it does it attack the Church’s teaching. That’s not to say she DID say that, but I would absolutely sign this exact petition if I was there and she did.

We can’t know what she said or didn’t say, but the students seem absolutely adamant that there were parts of her speech unreleased to the public, and since it does not seem to be an isolated experience by a single student or anything like that, I’m inclined to believe inflammatory comments were said.

As Catholics, we’re held to a higher standard. I’m not going to defend someone against a petition until it’s clear that they haven’t done what the petition suggested. This appears to be a case where a speaker went far and beyond Catholic teaching and suggested slanderous comments about gay couples. If that’s wrong, and she said no such thing, then I would of course defend her. But the current overwhelming consensus by those who attended appears to be that she did, indeed, make inflammatory comments.

Other students & the Priest who was in attendance are just as adamant that what she was speaking about was totally on point. I am more of the mind to give the nun the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise. People will hear what they want to hear, regardless of what is actually said by the speaker. (Assuming they were even listening and not texting.)

Have you seen any article or post that references that a large number of parents are upset and not just a handful of very vocal parents. I’m curious, because I’ve tried finding the information and haven’t seen it. All I get is “some parents”, which really doesn’t say much. There are over 1300 students in the school, some could mean anything.

 

[FaustinaJulia]

You seem to have breezed right bye my own post as a native of this Diocese and practicing Catholic convert, may I be of assistance and refer you to it:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11853196&postcount=74

God Bless and You’re Welcome

Thank you!!! People are coming apart at the seems about this, and there is NO transcript to be found. Again I say… this happened in NORTH CAROLINA not Berkeley, not Haight-Ashbury What we DO know is that there are a bunch of said conservative North Carolinian’s that are very angry.

 

[GraceSofia]

Recently Cardinal Dolan said, about a similar situation in a high school in New York, “It seems that no one can talk of virtue anymore without, at the very least, being labeled out of touch with reality, and in this case, accused of far worse: spreading hatred.” And Chesterton nailed it when he said that “if you really wish to enrage people and make them angry, even unto death, the right way to do it is to tell them that they are all the sons of God.”

If a Catholic high school lecture must be constrained by the rule that nobody can feel offended or have their sensitivites ruffled, well, then, we may as well give it up. Any talk of abortion will anger anybody who has had an abortion and not repented; any talk of the blessings of babies will be considered “insensitive.” Any talk of the benefits of traditional marriage will be deemed insensitive to those children of divorced, widowed, or single parents. Talk of the sin of homosexual acts will be considered “inflammatory” by those who have same-sex attraction, or a family member who has such an attraction. In short, no Catholic teaching on family life, morality, or sexuality will be allowed because it is bound to offend somebody!

Hhmmmm… maybe that is the whole point.

I am a little suspicious, because of the language of the petition and the speed with which it appeared, that those objecting high-school students had outside help from some LGBT group. It would make sense that the new target of the homosexualists is Catholic high schools.

It’s worth revisiting what happened in New York, where a priest’s talk on homosexuality at a high school was protested and canceled.

“For individuals and groups to bully, to threaten, to protest, when a priest seeks to explain this timeless and timely message to parents who invited him to do so, is a scary precedent. We have gone from the days when the plea from some activists was ‘All we want is to live our lives in peace’ to ‘You shall not have the right to present your teaching,’” stated Cardinal Dolan.

Courage to Speak: Talk Postponed Amid Intolerance Accusations

 

[kim_zef]

Well my goodness. If the Vicar of Christ on earth can’t judge them, who in the world
is Sister Jane to judge them?

Tongue firmly implanted in cheek.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

In the 70s and 80s, lots of divorced people left the Church because the people of their churches made a point of making them feel unwelcome. I know some such people. Their children and grandchildren are likely enough to be in Catholic schools.

Now they hear rhetoric that is once again critical of them. I’m not saying it’s bad rhetoric, but these people are sensitive. They hear – even if it’s not being spoken – that conservative Catholicism wants to go back to the “good ol’ days” when divorced people were ostracized.

So they push back. Some of them out of revenge or spite, some of them because they honestly feel gay marriage is OK, some of them because they feel that the particular comments the sister made were factually wrong. Some for a combination of reasons.

I’m not saying that this post describes every parent who is objecting, but I do think the story I’m describing is not uncommon.

 

[glendab]

Hello Prodigal.

To be rank, every thing after the “because” in your statement begins the process whereby God’s pronouncements about the said behaviors can be negotiated. It is non- negotiable.

See now, you are completely getting me wrong, and I’m a bit put off by your suggestion that I am thinking with my, errr, nether regions.

Let’s work on a little linguistics. When a person says that “X is wrong because of Y” there are two possible things that could be meant:

(1) The cause of X’s being wrong is Y.
(2) One way that we know that X is wrong is because of Y.

I agree with #2, in this case. I think that we can know that gay sex is wrong because God forbids it. But it is a very different thing to say that God’s will is what *makes *gay sex wrong.

You yourself have said that sodomy is abhorrent. Good. Now ask yourself this: If God said that sodomy is good, would that make it good? Your likely response is to say that God wouldn’t do that! But WHY wouldn’t God do that? Presumably because there is something about sodomy that God judges to be abhorrent for a reason. God RECOGNIZES that sodomy is abhorrent. This makes it impossible for God to “change his mind” about sodomy, the way God might change his mind about whether we can eat pork (for example).

If you agree with what I wrote above about God recognizing the evil of sodomy, then you cannot say #1 – that God’s opinion is what makes sodomy wrong. Rather, you have to say that the intrinsic nature of sodomy is objectionable – which is my position.

I don’t disagree at all. God forbids these things because they’re bad for us. He doesn’t forbid them randomly.

I agree with everything except that last phrase. It is downright rude – if not unChristian – to say that you don’t want to hear about a person’s struggles to love God and resist sin. I hope that’s not what you meant.

Your first comment about you “nether regions” isn’t from my post; perhaps someone else’s, but not mine.

I’d say that if you look at the things you’ve brought up regarding the positions you’d like us to discuss the issue from, your proposition # 1 is exactly where you are headed. You’ve already said that yourself. So, why shift your position for the discussion?

As for my being “unChristian” because I don’t want to hear about all the struggles of homosexuals in being supposedly reconciled to God, that is a judgment against me on your part in which you decided that my faith cannot be what you expect of a Christian because I don’t care much for the discussions of this issue. Why would I want to listen to the agenda’s subscribers for plausible excuses with which to continue to parade their behaviors before others? It borders on exhibitionisms. The more we protest against something the more legitimate it sometimes makes those we talk to seem as if their complaints are legitimized. This is why the Holy Father said we shouldn’t all be talking about this issue (as well as a few others) ALL THE TIME. It lends a type of credibility to the opposite camp’s defense in some minds.

Those who are truly contrite and humbled by God and in conversion rarely share about all the things they did or are giving up. A person’s “confessions” are usually kept private. I’ve seen and heard those share their struggles with same sex attraction once too often to believe or be duped into believing they are sorry and are giving us “true confessions” of their sorrow over their sins. Ever hear of crocodile tears? He’s really sorry he’s about to eat you and is weeping because you’ll be missed by those who love you. They do manage to coerce others into accepting their defense as if it is a good Christian thing to do to embrace the poor helpless gays and lesbians. Ummmm… Not me! Sorry. They hurt too many people.

Glenda

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hello Prodigal.

To be rank, every thing after the “because” in your statement begins the process whereby God’s pronouncements about the said behaviors can be negotiated. It is non- negotiable.

I never said God’s pronouncements could be negotiated. If God says something, it is true and binding. Period.

I don’t think you understand where I’m coming from, frankly. I do moral philosophy for a living. I’m not dabbling, and I’m not interested in justifying sins. I have never defended a sin on this forum – you can ask other people who have read my posts on various threads. What I’m interested in is learning from the best minds who ever lived about how to think about ethics – from Aquinas, from Newman, from JPII, and – of course – from Jesus.

None of the people I just mentioned ever say that God’s expressed will is what makes things wrong or right. Rather, they say that God recognizes what is wrong and right, and that the rules of rightness and wrongness flow out of God’s nature. God tells us what is right and wrong out of His infinite generosity.

You think I’m splitting hairs, but I’m not. These distinctions are important. A religion which just says “Do this, because God said so” is not a viable religion. If you want to understand why, maybe you’d be willing to read the following blog post?

edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/10/god-obligation-and-euthyphro-dilemma.html

Your first comment about you “nether regions” isn’t from my post; perhaps someone else’s, but not mine.

You didn’t use the phrase “nether regions”, but you implied that I was trying to justify sinning.

I’d say that if you look at the things you’ve brought up regarding the positions you’d like us to discuss the issue from, your proposition # 1 is exactly where you are headed. You’ve already said that yourself. So, why shift your position for the discussion?

I didn’t shift my position. Perhaps I was being unclear, however, which made it hard for you to see what I was getting at.

As for my being “unChristian” because I don’t want to hear about all the struggles of homosexuals in being supposedly reconciled to God, that is a judgment against me on your part in which you decided that my faith cannot be what you expect of a Christian because I don’t care much for the discussions of this issue. Why would I want to listen to the agenda’s subscribers for plausible excuses with which to continue to parade their behaviors before others?

But who is subscribing to the gay agenda? I have repeatedly said that sodomy is an evil. Who is making excuses here?

Those who are truly contrite and humbled by God and in conversion rarely share about all the things they did or are giving up. A person’s “confessions” are usually kept private.

The New Testament is full of people – Paul and Mary Magdelene and the woman at the well come to mind – who share loudly and insistently how God has rescued them from their prior sins. The fact that confessions are almost always kept private now may be the leading reason why the Church is shrinking in the West, not growing.

I’ve seen and heard those share their struggles with same sex attraction once too often to believe or be duped into believing they are sorry and are giving us “true confessions” of their sorrow over their sins. Ever hear of crocodile tears?

Why do you believe these people are insincere? Do you have evidence?

They do manage to coerce others into accepting their defense as if it is a good Christian thing to do to embrace the poor helpless gays and lesbians.

As if it’s a Christian thing to do to embrace gays and lesbians?

Aren’t we supposed to embrace all sinners? If someone acts repentant, aren’t we supposed to assume that they *are *repentant until proven otherwise?

Ummmm… Not me! Sorry. They hurt too many people.

Of course sinners hurt people. We hurt people out of the pain we feel, and the stupid things we do to get rid of that pain. But the solution is not to reject a person who repents. Then we are just hurting the people who hurt us, and continuing the cycle of sin.

Glenda, I just want to let you know that I feel like the Holy Spirit is just filling my heart with love for you right now. I know that some things I’ve said in this conversation come out of pride, but I also feel like God can do something really powerful in our lives in this conversation, if we really listen to each other. I myself am a person who has sinned in ways associated with homosexuality. I am really and truly repentant, and I want to follow Jesus. It’s hard, and I will probably fall again.

But – honestly, from the heart – I want your embrace. I want you to stand beside me in my walk, and say that you can love me even if I’ve sinned in this way. I don’t want to walk alone.

Peace,
Prodigal

 

[TCEL]

Prodigal Son, I sympathize with what you’re saying. I mainly understand you to be saying that God says what He says for a reason, and that faith and reason go hand-in-hand. Our God is not an arbitrary dictator. People will not listen to Scripture, which is revealed, so natural law comes in. (Personally, I feel that right now is the very last time in which we should leave natural law by the wayside, though I understand that proposal isn’t accepted by all Christians.) Is that accurate?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Prodigal Son, I sympathize with what you’re saying. I mainly understand you to be saying that God says what He says for a reason, and that faith and reason go hand-in-hand. Our God is not an arbitrary dictator.

Yes, that’s it exactly. If we cannot explain a non-Scriptural reason why sodomy is wrong, then in essence we are asking people who accept sodomy as moral to “take it on our word” that the God of Scripture is the true God. Because these people are quite ready to leave the Church over this issue, unless the Church “comes around”.

Now, it’s not always easy to find non-Scriptural resources for such arguments, because we are creatures of our culture, and our culture is dissolute. But there are such reasons – though they apply to most straight people in this culture, and certainly not just gay people. Succumbing to the desire for sexual pleasure for its own sake turns us into beasts, and is directly contrary to nurturing the virtues. As JimG said above, the fight over contraception (and I might add masturbation) were key losses in the battle to sustain a substantial notion of the virtue of chastity in this culture.

People will not listen to Scripture, which is revealed, so natural law comes in. (Personally, I feel that right now is the very last time in which we should leave natural law by the wayside, though I understand that proposal isn’t accepted by all Christians.) Is that accurate?

 

[esieffe]

You seem to have breezed right bye my own post as a native of this Diocese and practicing Catholic convert, may I be of assistance and refer you to it:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11853196&postcount=74

God Bless and You’re Welcome

Hi, thanks, I read your post. I knew NC was growing rapidly, from the Triangle area down to Charlotte, but I didn’t know where the people were coming from. Where else but from the North right?

We don’t use the term "dang Yankees anymore, in Atlanta, now we just stick with "Northern aggressors! Just kidding people, just kidding!

But that would make more sense. Again I was more concerned about kids from single families. Many of us came unhinged about this story prematurely, without all the facts, no matter what side of the story you’re on.

The good news is that people care, so I can’t be too hard about the rush to judgement.

Thanks,
-E

 

[esieffe]

But – honestly, from the heart – I want your embrace. I want you to stand beside me in my walk, and say that you can love me even if I’ve sinned in this way. I don’t want to walk alone.

Peace,
Prodigal

Your a good man Charlie Brown!

 

[esieffe]

.

Those who are truly contrite and humbled by God and in conversion rarely share about all the things they did or are giving up. A person’s “confessions” are usually kept private.

Glenda

Hi Glenda! I hope you are doing well. I think it is important to point out for all people here, that many cannot afford therapy or counselling for issues that they are struggling with. The anonymity that this and other forums provide, are invaluable to people that don’t have access to these resources.

This means that people who do need to discuss issues and personal struggles have a safe place to go, talk and discuss problems with like minded individuals. When I say like minded individuals, I mean that in terms of their goals, getting right with God, and helping others to do so.

For this reason, many DO come here and bear their soul, because the anonymity allows for it. Often this does come in the form of a confession or revelation. If discussion in these forums were limited to people who didn’t have heavy burdens to work through, what would be the point of this forum? Yes there are reasons for coming here, but I think you get the gist of what I am talking about. Just food for thought.

Blessings,
-E

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

If the nun claimed that gay couples are incapable of monogamy, I’d say that’s pretty inflammatory. Do you not agree? Why did you bold that part of it?

Indeed, it’s not just inflammatory, but wrong. If these kids have seen examples that show that gay couples can indeed be monogamous it will weaken the message the Sister was trying to express.

Additionally I find

School officials said she spent about half of her hour-long talk on homosexuality, including attributing a correlation between the decline of fatherhood in America and the rise in homosexuality.

source

rather bizarre. Why would she spend half of it talking about that?

 

[Dawnia]

Indeed, it’s not just inflammatory, but wrong. If these kids have seen examples that show that gay couples can indeed be monogamous it will weaken the message the Sister was trying to express.

Additionally I find

source

rather bizarre. Why would she spend half of it talking about that?

Thanks for the link. I totally agree with the sister on this point.

When reached by telephone last week, Sister Jane said she has given similar talks more than 80 times in 25 states. She also said she presents the Catholic viewpoint toward persons with same-sex attraction by saying, “Homosexual persons do not need our judgment, they need our compassion.”

 

[GraceSofia]

This story was updated April first. A pity, for all concerned. This is going to happen again and again; when someone dares to speak Catholic teaching on homosexual acts or marriage in a school, there will be a campaign to shut them up or shout them down. Catholic schools and (faithful Catholic) parents need to be ready.

UPDATE: Dominican sister withdraws from scheduled appearance at diocesan youth event in May

Sister Jane had been scheduled to return to the diocese in May, to address the 2014 Diocesan Youth Conference at the Ridgecrest Conference Center near Asheville. However, in an April 1 statement, Father Arnsparger said Sister Jane will not be coming.

“Sister Jane Dominic has withdrawn from speaking at the Diocesan Youth Conference in May,” his statement said. “I completely understand the decision of Sister’s Mother Superior that the timing is not right for her to make a return visit to the diocese. It was very thoughtful of Sister Jane to withdraw from this planned speaking engagement as the Diocese of Charlotte deals with the concern of parents of Charlotte Catholic High School students. Sister Jane Dominic has been a frequent speaker throughout the country and we look forward to learning from her in the future.”

The April 2 meeting at Charlotte Catholic High School is open to parents of Charlotte Catholic students, school faculty, and pastors of the Charlotte diocese. In a letter addressed to parents and posted April 1 on the school district’s website, school leaders stated that they “hope to hear from you and to answer some of the questions you may have about the assembly. As your child’s first and most important teacher it is important for you to understand exactly what happened in the assembly.”

During the meeting Father Arnsparger, Father Kauth and Charlotte Catholic administrators will speak as well as listen to comments and take questions from parents, the statement said.

 

[Memaw]

Indeed, it’s not just inflammatory, but wrong. If these kids have seen examples that show that gay couples can indeed be monogamous it will weaken the message the Sister was trying to express.

Additionally I find

source

rather bizarre. Why would she spend half of it talking about that?

Maybe because it’s the truth!. Gods Bless. Memaw

 

[epan]

It is obvious that many “Catholics” schools are infested with heresy. It would probably be better if a lot of them were simply closed.

Agreed.

 

[BigBlueCane]

This sister is really off on this issue. First of all to indicate that fatherless children become gay or that masturbation can make someone gay. These are just absolutely laughable statements. I’ve met gay people from ALL backgrounds. Fatherless, motherless, catholic, non catholic, etc. etc. The MOST that can be said is that there is no consensus as to how one develops sexual preference. But to scare the hell out of kids and say that if you masturbate or if you don’t have a father you might be gay is just irresponsible and incredibly wrong.

 

[glendab]

Well, at least it is nice to see the thread getting back on track with the OP.

Prodigal, I’m not really sure how to respond to your post other than to say I saw you’re disclosure coming. Here is a suggestion for you: Homosexuality and the Catholic Church by Father John Harvey. He’s the founder of the Courage support groups for persons with problems of a homosexual nature and they do help folks get reconciled to the Church. The book is available at Amazon:

amazon.com/Homosexuality-Catholic-Church-John-Harvey/dp/193292762X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396441488&sr=1-2&keywords=Father+Harvey

I imagine they probably have a website and may be available to you in the Diocese where you live.

Eiseffe, I strongly disagree with your suggestion that folks come here to “bare their souls.” This is a Catholic Forum meant primarily to promote* disputation and defense of CATHOLIC positions on all subjects. It is meant as a source for Catholic teaching*. It ISN"T meant as a support group or a therapeutic modality. Those who do “bare their souls” in such a place as this* risk being hurt*, damaged, attacked, ridiculed, etc. simply because that is the nature of this kind of forum. While we do try to defend the Church in a courteous way with charity in mind, there are things that we as Catholics must support and some folks are honestly and rightly outraged at the turn of our society into a type of place where a forced and false tolerance is expected more and more every day. Here, at least they expect the Church’s Truth to be not only stated but promoted and defended and may even consider it a refuge from the intrusive media and it’s agenda promoting diatribe. Sometimes those folks who are outraged at this very issue express themselves strongly and that may hurt the feelings of those with problems of a homosexual nature. No, our government has yet to force tolerance of everyone.

This thread was started because a Sister was under fire for speaking about what the Church teaches. It has little to do with being a support group for practicing and non-practicing homosexuals, bisexuals, lesbians, trans-gendered persons or any other of the myriad of sexual deviants that we are expected as supposedly “good” Christians to adopt and support to “prove” we’re good Christians. That isn’t the Church’s position and it isn’t wise to expect all of the Church’s members to behave like Father Harvey and his support groups. That is the place to seek help - NOT HERE!

Glenda