Dominican Sister of St. Cecilia under fire by students for talk on homosexuality

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTE

A reminder to post charitably. I realize there are strong feelings on this topic, but that is not unusual for the In the News forums and you all should know by now that charity is required in CAF forums.

If you wish to review the subject, please see [thread=132852]Charity[/thread] for specifics, or [thread=116150]CAF rules[/thread] for an overview, both of which are located in the Rules of the Road sub-forum.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hopey,

Looking over my last post, I realize I might have been a bit harsh or blunt. Please accept my apology. I very much respect your viewpoint, and I think what you said is more right than wrong. I just get passionate about things.

Peace,
Prodigal

 

[Hopey]

But we are not in the position of correcting non-Christians. We call them to repentance, but we do not tell them to stop doing these things on their own – they need to come to God the Father and be healed.

The Bible clearly teaches that. Jesus called people to repentance, and said that they were sinners. His words to the woman at the well hurt, but the words were not unnecessarily offensive. He said no more than was necessary to make her feel the reality of her actions. He said, factually, what she has done. He did not call her a “woman of loose morals” – even though this was true.

Wisdom is knowing when NOT to say true things.

Please note in my post above that I said that gay people are often quite defensive – which is to say, quick to take offense. Christians, on the other hand, often use “speaking the truth” as an excuse to indulge in self-righteousness.

I’m sure if I said to a gay person that he lived a “gay lifestyle”, and in the same breath said that I live a “lustful lifestyle” or a “hypocrite’s lifestyle” or a “wrathful lifestyle”, he would be much less likely to take offense. But aside from that, I fail to see the point in saying something that does not open the doors of the gospel and does not convict a person of his sins – but only offends him.

I AGREE that the sensitivity is often unhealthy. But it exists. And trampling over that sensitivity does not accomplish the work of the Gospel.

She was presenting the Church’s teaching at a Catholic school. She was well within line and not seeking out non-Christians, etc.
These are areas (prudential) that some diocese have struggled with when allowing homosexual couples, who have a kid(s), attend the school. It isn’t that they don’t love, don’t want them. Our teachings, and the truth, will put them and the child (possibly other parents and teachers) at odds. Some have said no for that reason and some have said “yes” BUT making them aware of what the child will learn, etc, and they have to be ok. I remember something similar (and we are Catholic) when our children attended a Catholic school. I would expect the same if I sent them to a Baptist school, etc.

Her talks, which I am listening to, are presenting the basics of TOB to young people. It isn’t corrective in nature but informative. Now, because we are reflective people, we may find ourselves at odds with some of the things. That shouldn’t compel us to lash out, but consider her position and the Church’s, what they are offering.

 

[Hopey]

Hopey,

Looking over my last post, I realize I might have been a bit harsh or blunt. Please accept my apology. I very much respect your viewpoint, and I think what you said is more right than wrong. I just get passionate about things.

Peace,
Prodigal

No offense here!
I am not sure what prompted the moderator but I am not offended.
I will go back and review mine also - check for charity.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

NOT how one acts, eh?

Provocative, you are.

Here are a few sources (not those that Gender Equity Center or GLAAD and other super gay-friendly sites like to cite, of course) refuting your assertion

Merriam Webster
Definition of HOMOSEXUALITY

1: the quality or state of being homosexual
2: erotic activity with another of the same sex

American Heritage

ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty
NOUN:

Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
Sexual activity with another of the same sex.

Homosexuality Legal Definition:

Sexual contact between two persons of the same sex.

Even one OED link produced this definition,

homosexuality, n.

The quality of being homosexual, homosexual character or nature; also, homosexual behaviour or activity.

Dictionary.com

ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty

sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one’s own sex.

So, it can mean state of being or the action / activity associated with homosexuals.

No, I am not an English language learner, just in case you would ask.
,

That it is noted that it is used by some to refer to behavior no more means that it means that than the word “disinterested” means apathetic.

-ity
suffix
forming nouns denoting quality or condition : humility | probity.
• denoting an instance or degree of this : a profanity.
ORIGIN from French -ité, from Latin -itas, -itatis.

When you’ve added -ity to a word it is improper to use that word to describe behavior.

 

[retire_early]

Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable. Joie is right about the way “gay” is used nowadays.

Prodigal: I think you are confusing things. I know how the word gay is used these days; Joie said that usage came into effect a thousand years ago and I used Wikipedia to cite that it was in the late 19th century (a little over a hundred years ago). No mistake about that. Joie was just plain wrong about her statement.

Perhaps you missed my earlier post wherein I was lamenting the fact that the original meaning of the word gay was used more prominently in my earlier years. I liked using the word gay for the original meaning and was sorry to see it evolve to its currently more common usage. I know, I know…getting off topic, but .

 

[retire_early]

Except sometimes the truth can be painful, like a surgeon with a scalpel removing an infected organ. Sometimes it is necessary to say some things. I do believe from her talks that it wasn’t just the gays who were offended, but those who come from broken families.
There is a part of me that is triggered by certain things. I am sensitive to talks about broken families because of my own background. But the sensitivity isn’t that what the person saying is untrue, or not necessary to say because in her wisdom (the Church) she proclaims the way God intended for a family to be, but unresolved hurts in my life. When unresolved hurt continue, you can not move to acceptance.
There could have been some students there from broken families, single parents, parents living in very sinful situation that are against the commandments/God’s law. It doesn’t mean you suppress the message but you can further add, or help those process it. It should be something for the parents to consider also - time to get their act together.
Not all correction is received with open arms. Correction can hurt at times.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

The core of the discussion isn’t about terminology; it’s about sensitivity. SMGS and I (and others) have been called to be part of the New Evangelization, which centrally includes an outreach to our brothers and sisters who are homosexuals. We believe that they are not lost causes, because we have seen in our own lives that we ourselves are capable of turning away from sin, and clinging to the gospel. We love them, and we want them to be saved.

But we also know that there are profound barriers that the powers and principalities of this world have put in the way of their conversion. These barriers are the work of the devil. Among gay people, defensiveness and pride are barriers. Among those in the Church, stubbornness and fear are barriers.

I believe that when Christians lay down our lives before sinners, the sinners look at the light of our sacrifice, and see the face of Jesus. I believe that when we die to self, Christ lives in us.

What does dying to self mean in this case? For one thing, not causing unnecessary offense. If you want your wealthy brother to enter the Church, it’s better not to call him greedy. Rather, bring him to Christ, and he will recognize his own greed. If you want gay people to come to Jesus, it will not help to use words that they consider offensive – even if you don’t mean to offend!

Paul told us not to consider our rights as apostles, but to consider love of the brethren. This is not about terminology; it’s about love. There are already enough obstacles that stand between the Church and gay people. Let’s not let the words that come out of our mouths to be another obstacle.

Sorry, I am not persuaded. Jesus used words that were offensive as well : “hypocrites”
“blind guides” “serpents” and “brood of vipers” to the Pharisees who thought I am sure were unnecessarily offensive.

Further, let me ask, who assigns “necessary” and “unnecessary”? I sincerely hope not the 4%. Take a read of other words readers should not be able to read, that writers and speakers have to avoid, if the 4% gets its way.

GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Offensive Terms To Avoid is an instruction to the media. “Homosexual lifestyle” is in the list as you might note.

You are right that the struggle is between principalities and powers in this world. Words have power. One side, the dark side, wants to seize the meaning of terms to condition people, to sway them to accept that active homosexuality is normal and natural. As we have seen, unrelenting conditioning over the years has been successful in changing the definition of marriage. With judicial nod to the redefined meaning of this socially and profoundly important word, same sex “marriage” is now legalized in a number of jurisdictions. OED and Collins and Macmillan dictionaries now define marriage to include relations between same sex partners.

I applaud you, SMG, and others as you say are on an evangelization mission. I just the think you need persuading of the side that seems perpetually offended by truth. Let’s not forsake truth for sensitivity, a false sense of love and compassion.

As Dr. James O’Neill wrote, “Homosexuality has taken on an everyday and everywhere aura. Columnist Pat Buchanan updated Oscar Wilde’s 19th Century description of homosexuality with the quip: “the love that dare not speak its name has become the love that won’t shut up”. There is a laissez-faire attitude toward homosexuality, a live and let live attitude, that may be naïve, but it’s also rooted in compassion for the plight of someone who suffers rejection of any kind. Compassion, like idealism, is part of the human condition, but in this case, compassion is the gold wrapper that keeps us from looking objectively at the contents of the box.”
,

 

[InSearchofGrace]

That it is noted that it is used by some to refer to behavior no more means that it means that than the word “disinterested” means apathetic.

When you’ve added -ity to a word it is improper to use that word to describe behavior.

Says you? Why?
,

 

[retire_early]

The word gay has had darker meanings to it for over half a millennium.

Sorry, Joie…I thought you said millennium, but I see now the word HALF. Still, 500 years is incorrect.

Yep, I’m an English language learner…have been since the day I was born. I recognize that each of us can learn something new everyday, unlike those who might think they know it all. Have a nice day!

 

[retire_early]

Notice the “or”, it is having a common definition to reflect different usage patterns. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a dictionary and thus doesn’t have a high value with regards to understanding the definition of a word.

 

[gilliam]

In first statement Charlotte’s bishop expresses ‘shock’ over ‘lack of charity’

CHARLOTTE — In a statement issued today, Bishop Peter J. Jugis called the controversy over a recent presentation on human sexuality at Charlotte Catholic High School “a difficult time” that has caused everyone “a great deal of pain.”

The all-school assembly March 21 featured a presentation by Sister Jane Dominic Laurel, a Dominican from Nashville, Tenn., and a frequent speaker in the Diocese of Charlotte. Sister Jane spoke on “Masculinity and Femininity: Difference and Gift,” which explained Catholic teaching about gender using Blessed Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

Sister Jane’s March 21 address to students, which was arranged by Father Matthew Kauth, the school’s chaplain, was based on a series of instructional videos she created for Aquinas College in Nashville where she is an associate professor. She has a doctorate in sacred theology from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas in Rome.

Sister Jane spent about half of her hour-long talk on homosexuality, including attributing a correlation between the decline of fatherhood in America and the rise in homosexuality. That drew the ire of students and parents over the past three weeks, boiling over in a meeting April 2 at the high school with more than 900 parents present.

In his statement, Bishop Jugis said, “I am shocked to hear the disturbing reports of a lack of charity and respect at the parents’ meeting, and outside the meeting in conversations and in social media. There simply is no room in the Catholic Church for such displays of uncharitableness and disrespect. If we have failed in this regard let us make amends to God and neighbor. Even when we disagree, that disagreement should be expressed respectfully in love.”

Bishop Jugis also emphasized in his statement, “All of our Catholic schools are committed to hold and teach the Catholic faith in its fullness and with integrity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains an explanation of our faith and is accessible to all.”

Bishop Jugis’ full statement, issued April 9, follows:

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

The past few weeks have been very difficult for Charlotte Catholic High School. We have all experienced a great deal of pain. During this difficult time I want to express my support and encouragement for all the parents, students, staff and faculty at the high school. We must move forward toward healing with charity, the hallmark of our Christian life.

Different viewpoints regarding Sr. Jane Dominic Laurel’s presentation to students on March 21, 2014, have been discussed in a variety of venues.

At the parent meeting on April 2, 2014, many expressed concern about the lack of advanced communication with parents regarding the subject matter of the assembly. Apologies were made at the meeting for that lack of advanced communication.

The content of the Church’s moral teaching was not raised as a matter of contention at the parent meeting. All of our Catholic schools are committed to hold and teach the Catholic faith in its fullness and with integrity. The Catechism of the Catholic Church contains an explanation of our faith and is accessible to all.

During this difficult time I support the continued work of Fr. Matthew Kauth, the chaplain; Mrs. Angela Montague and Mr. Steve Carpenter, the assistant principals; and Mr. Randy Belk, the dean of students; and all they are doing for our Charlotte Catholic High School students. All of us are indebted to them.

I am shocked to hear the disturbing reports of a lack of charity and respect at the parents’ meeting, and outside the meeting in conversations and in social media. There simply is no room in the Catholic Church for such displays of uncharitableness and disrespect. If we have failed in this regard let us make amends to God and neighbor. Even when we disagree, that disagreement should be expressed respectfully in love.

We ask the Lord Jesus Christ for His mercy and His healing as we approach the celebrations of Palm Sunday, Holy Week and Easter Sunday of the Lord’s Resurrection. Please be assured of our continued dedication to the mission to teach and live the truth of the Catholic faith at our Charlotte Catholic High School.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Most Reverend Peter J. Jugis

Bishop of Charlotte

 

[TMC]

What did she say that the Church does not teach?

Oral sex is something only homosexuals can do, masturbating makes you gay, gay people can never be happy, and I know there are a few more I am missing

She also said that people turn gay because their parents didn’t love them enough, that single parents are not capable of being good parents, that divorced people can’t be good parents and probably more that I am also forgetting.

Of course, the Church teaches none of that, and none of it is remotely true.

 

[TMC]

1. Catholics complain about being distorted and having lies told about them or having untrue stereotypes cloud what the church truly teaches
2. Along comes a nun who does all of the above
3. Catholics then immediately defend her

?!?!?!?!?!

Correction - some Catholics defend her. Others have complained about her, including those directly affected by her statements.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Sorry, I am not persuaded. Jesus used words that were offensive as well : “hypocrites”
“blind guides” “serpents” and “brood of vipers” to the Pharisees who thought I am sure were unnecessarily offensive.

Further, let me ask, who assigns “necessary” and “unnecessary”? I sincerely hope not the 4%. Take a read of other words readers should not be able to read, that writers and speakers have to avoid, if the 4% gets its way.

GLAAD Media Reference Guide - Offensive Terms To Avoid is an instruction to the media. “Homosexual lifestyle” is in the list as you might note.

You are right that the struggle is between principalities and powers in this world. Words have power. One side, the dark side, wants to seize the meaning of terms to condition people, to sway them to accept that active homosexuality is normal and natural. As we have seen, unrelenting conditioning over the years has been successful in changing the definition of marriage. With judicial nod to the redefined meaning of this socially and profoundly important word, same sex “marriage” is now legalized in a number of jurisdictions. OED and Collins and Macmillan dictionaries now define marriage to include relations between same sex partners.

I applaud you, SMG, and others as you say are on an evangelization mission. I just the think you need persuading of the side that seems perpetually offended by truth. Let’s not forsake truth for sensitivity, a false sense of love and compassion.

As Dr. James O’Neill wrote, “Homosexuality has taken on an everyday and everywhere aura. Columnist Pat Buchanan updated Oscar Wilde’s 19th Century description of homosexuality with the quip: “the love that dare not speak its name has become the love that won’t shut up”. There is a laissez-faire attitude toward homosexuality, a live and let live attitude, that may be naïve, but it’s also rooted in compassion for the plight of someone who suffers rejection of any kind. Compassion, like idealism, is part of the human condition, but in this case, compassion is the gold wrapper that keeps us from looking objectively at the contents of the box.”
,

Have you considered that the reason that GLAAD lists it under “Offensive Terms To Avoid” is because it is offensive?

Says you? Why?
,

The definition of the suffix “-ity”, because of the French language and Latin from whence the suffix derives.

Sorry, Joie…I thought you said millennium, but I see now the word HALF. Still, 500 years is incorrect.

Yep, I’m an English language learner…have been since the day I was born. I recognize that each of us can learn something new everyday, unlike those who might think they know it all. Have a nice day!

I never said it had the modern meaning five hundred years ago.

Joie de Vivre;11880168:

Wikipedia’s definition is common enough in this instance to be perfectly acceptable to define. The value is high enough for the purposes of this discussion. I saw the word “or”…what’s your point? From the definition, we can conclude that homosexuality can be a word to indicate the acting out of homosexual behavior.

Wikipedia is descriptive not prescriptive.

 

[Dawnia]

She also said that people turn gay because their parents didn’t love them enough, that single parents are not capable of being good parents, that divorced people can’t be good parents and probably more that I am also forgetting.

Of course, the Church teaches none of that, and none of it is remotely true.

Were you in the audience during the speech?

 

[Dawnia]

Correction - some Catholics defend her. Others have complained about her, including those directly affected by her statements.

You forgot the those of us not ready to string her up in a tree based on hearsay. If anything she said was wrong, then she should be corrected charitably, not lynched.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Have you considered that the reason that GLAAD lists it under “Offensive Terms To Avoid” is because it is offensive?

Have you considered the words were / listed for elimination because pure emotion trumps logic for those who favor political correctness over meaningful discussion of current sociopolitical issues?

I subscribe to fairness to LGBTs, having a homosexual brother myself who is a good person albeit with the disordered inclination. I do not subscribe to the brand of “equality” GLAAD promotes and extreme liberalism except where and when elites among LGBTs decide to be intolerant. It wants to be thought and language police, sort of a macro Soviet style on indoctrination in the 1930s.

Are you a member of GLAAD’s staff?

The definition of the suffix “-ity”, because of the French language and Latin from whence the suffix derives.

So?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Have you considered the words were / listed for elimination because pure emotion trumps logic for those who favor political correctness over meaningful discussion of current sociopolitical issues?

I subscribe to fairness to LGBTs, having a homosexual brother myself who is a good person albeit with the disordered inclination. I do not subscribe to the brand of “equality” GLAAD promotes and extreme liberalism except where and when elites among LGBTs decide to be intolerant. **It wants to be thought and language police, sort of a macro Soviet style on indoctrination in the 1930s.
**
Are you a member of GLAAD’s staff?

So?

Are you serious?

No, I am not nor have ever been employed by GLAAD, nor contracted with them, nor have ever subscribed to anything published by them.

Would you have a problem if people started using the word “pope” to mean “someone who leads a pedophile ring”?

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Have you considered the words were / listed for elimination because pure emotion trumps logic for those who favor political correctness over meaningful discussion of current sociopolitical issues?

Lets be frank. You won’t be very successful in evangelizing in the gay community if you insist on using terms and allegations we find offensive whether you agree with that assessment or not. From our perspective, many representatives of the Church including laymen and clergy alike use language and sociological/psychological claims, some of which were expressed by this nun in her presentations, which we find to be uncharitable, offensive, and untrue, You can’t expect anyone to willingly participate in a “meaningful discussion” when you try to start it that way. Maybe thats not what you intended, but thats the reality. You don’t have to change the message, but the Catholic Church really needs to work on the delivery.