Dominican Third Order?

[Luigi_Daniele]

I see. Nothing to be embarrassed about, I was just confused.

If the charismatic approach is bothering you, have you considered another monastery? I didn’t see if you had replied earlier regarding if you had made a final oblation or not.

Peace,

The other monasteries in California are even further away from me, unfortunately. Ridiculously further: 6-7 hour drives.

It doesn’t really bother me all that much, TBH. Again, it just doesn’t feel true. The monk that makes the trip blesses people (or the “minister”). People fall. I have never seen either of them fall, though.

 

[jwinch2]

It doesn’t really bother me all that much, TBH. Again, it just doesn’t feel true. The monk that makes the trip blesses people (or the “minister”). People fall. I have never seen either of them fall, though.

That would certainly bother me, a great deal.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

That would certainly bother me, a great deal.

Yeah…it did me at first, too. I think that it is mainly that and being so bad at something that is a “requirement” (Lectio Divina—1st 3 steps, no problem; Contemplatio is a blank).

 

[iloveangels]

Remember that joining an Order is a calling, not like joining a social club. Just because you may feel called to joining doesn’t mean your wife may feel called. It is entirely possible she may feel more called to the Dominicans and you more called to the Franciscans. Each person should investigate their own path. Like you said both groups, especially in their secular groups, allow for enough variance in your personal spiritual life that you can still have Dominican study habits or Franciscan detachment in the other Order. Another thing to think about is that joining a secular Order does not mean you are taking a vow of poverty. It also doesn’t mean that you are forcing others in your life to do the same thing. I am a husband and a father to two young kids. They did not join the Secular Franciscans and I cannot bind them to that life. I have to look at all purchases both as a Franciscan and as a father.

This is completely true. Becoming a member of a third order is a vocation. Therefore, one member of a married couple may have a vocation and the other one, not. [And in fact, this is the most common outcome, not the exception.]

Or if they both have a vocation, they might be to different orders or the same one. It’s really, really important that this is talked about freely and decisions are made in the right way. I’ve seen long-term problems ensue when assumptions have been made.

 

[iloveangels]

That would certainly bother me, a great deal.

I’m pretty open-minded about these things. It doesn’t bother me to see different prayer styles and so on much, but if this was taking up very much contact time, I’d wonder about it. Contact time is at a premium, isn’t it? I mean I seem to be remembering, from past comments, that there’s quite a bit of travel involved here and meetings aren’t real frequent. Am I remembering wrong or?

Also, I’m with Jason on this one: Benedictines aren’t really known for charismatic behavior. So seeing a bit, meh. Seeing a whole lot during meetings, ??.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I’m pretty open-minded about these things. It doesn’t bother me to see different prayer styles and so on much, but if this was taking up very much contact time, I’d wonder about it. Contact time is at a premium, isn’t it? I mean I seem to be remembering, from past comments, that there’s quite a bit of travel involved here and meetings aren’t real frequent. Am I remembering wrong or?

Also, I’m with Jason on this one: Benedictines aren’t really known for charismatic behavior. So seeing a bit, meh. Seeing a whole lot during meetings, ??.

It only happens at the end of the meeting. Takes up maybe 5 minutes.

 

[jwinch2]

To me it isn’t as much of an issue of the extent, it is whether it is proper to begin with. At the very least what I have read and heard to date would suggest that such things should be done in private rather than in a group setting. However, I am not even convinced of that appropriateness of that within monastic tradition. In the Holy Rule, St. Benedict warns against praying in such a way that it can be distracting to others or in anyway hinder their own prayer.
Chapter 52 - Rule of St. Benedict:

Let the oratory be what it is called, a place of prayer;
and let nothing else be done there or kept there.
When the Work of God is ended,
let all go out in perfect silence,
and let reverence for God be observed,
so that any brother who may wish to pray privately
will not be hindered by another’s misconduct.
And at other times also,
if anyone should want to pray by himself,
let him go in simply and pray,
not in a loud voice but with tears and fervor of heart.
He who does not say his prayers in this way, therefore,
shall not be permitted to remain in the oratory
when the Work of God is ended,
lest another be hindered, as we have said.

Again, the Church has stated that the Charismatic movement is a legitimate approach within the Church, so I am not disputing that. That is not the same however as saying that it is a legitimate part of the Benedictine tradition. As I stated earlier, I am new to Benedictine spirituality so perhaps I am missing something, but I have seen nothing to date which would suggest that the two approaches are compatible.

Peace,

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

To me it isn’t as much of an issue of the extent, it is whether it is proper to begin with. At the very least what I have read and heard to date would suggest that such things should be done in private rather than in a group setting. However, I am not even convinced of that appropriateness of that within monastic tradition. In the Holy Rule, St. Benedict warns against praying in such a way that it can be distracting to others or in anyway hinder their own prayer.

Again, the Church has stated that the Charismatic movement is a legitimate approach within the Church, so I am not disputing that. That is not the same however as saying that it is a legitimate part of the Benedictine tradition. As I stated earlier, I am new to Benedictine spirituality so perhaps I am missing something, but I have seen nothing to date which would suggest that the two approaches are compatible.

Peace,

It does feel contrived. Again, it is after the meeting itself, and you are not required to go up for the prayers.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Although:

I have come to the realization, after long prayer, that no “third order” will be a perfect fit.

 

[Melchior_1]

Again, the Church has stated that the Charismatic movement is a legitimate approach within the Church, so I am not disputing that. That is not the same however as saying that it is a legitimate part of the Benedictine tradition.

Very, very true. I’ve never read anything that would indicate that Benedictines are involved with this. The Franciscans are, everyone knows that. So are some other orders, and a Society of Apostolic Life who has it as one of their charisms. But Benedictines? No.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Very, very true. I’ve never read anything that would indicate that Benedictines are involved with this. The Franciscans are, everyone knows that. So are some other orders, and a Society of Apostolic Life who has it as one of their charisms. But Benedictines? No.

Well obviously they are, as I told you that they are (at least at the monastery I was referring to).

 

[iloveangels]

Although:

I have come to the realization, after long prayer, that no “third order” will be a perfect fit.

This is really true. Belonging to any third order involves being a member with other people, and everything that entails. It can be interesting, and it’s supposed to be that way.

 

[iloveangels]

Well obviously they are, as I told you that they are (at least at the monastery I was referring to).

How much is the monastery itself involved in the charismatic movement, I wonder? Just as an auxiliary prayer style or ?

Now these are Olivetans, right? That’s a little different from mainline Benedictines, I think, although they use the Benedictine rule. They were founded very late for a monastic order, 1319. So I wonder if the charism might be a little bit more open or ? than regular Benedictines founded more than 500 years earlier.

 

[JReducation]

Very, very true. I’ve never read anything that would indicate that Benedictines are involved with this. The Franciscans are, everyone knows that. So are some other orders, and a Society of Apostolic Life who has it as one of their charisms. But Benedictines? No.

Everyone thinks they know it. Unfortunately, what people think is not always the reality. There are 1.7 million Franciscans around the world. There is not a single house where Charistmatic Prayer is accepted as formal community prayer. The only form of prayer that may be a formal community prayer must be liturgical, not even the rosary can be forced on the community.

There are many Franciscans: friars, sisters and secular who are involved in the Charistmatic Movement. This is true. It is not true that the Franciscans are corporately involved with the Charismatic Renewal anymore than we’re involved with the Rosary Crusade, the Chaplet for Divine Mercy or the Blue Army.

The mendicants take the same position as the monks do. This is not a form of liturgical prayer. Therefore, it cannot be a formal form of community prayer. However, liturgical prayer and praise and worship are not mutually exclusive or in conflict. Therefore, any monk, friar, sister or group of them who want to engage in praise and worship may do so, provided that it is not forced on the community. The community’s duty with regards to common prayer is only to liturgy. Anything else is voluntary and is not to be taken as an endorsement by the order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

How much is the monastery itself involved in the charismatic movement, I wonder? Just as an auxiliary prayer style or ?

Now these are Olivetans, right? That’s a little different from mainline Benedictines, I think, although they use the Benedictine rule. They were founded very late for a monastic order, 1319. So I wonder if the charism might be a little bit more open or ? than regular Benedictines founded more than 500 years earlier.

About Olivetans, here are some useful links:

Specific information about Olivetans at the bottom of the page, note Hawaiians: aimintl.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=466&Itemid=519&lang=en

A little bit old, but really helpful with some history & a bit of background, from the American Monastic Newsletter: osb.org/aba/news/982803/j.html

And an Olivetan website in the US with links: pecosmonastery.org//

 

[iloveangels]

Everyone thinks they know it. Unfortunately, what people think is not always the reality. There are 1.7 million Franciscans around the world. There is not a single house where Charistmatic Prayer is accepted as formal community prayer. The only form of prayer that may be a formal community prayer must be liturgical, not even the rosary can be forced on the community.

There are many Franciscans: friars, sisters and secular who are involved in the Charistmatic Movement. This is true. It is not true that the Franciscans are corporately involved with the Charismatic Renewal anymore than we’re involved with the Rosary Crusade, the Chaplet for Divine Mercy or the Blue Army.

The mendicants take the same position as the monks do. This is not a form of liturgical prayer. Therefore, it cannot be a formal form of community prayer. However, liturgical prayer and praise and worship are not mutually exclusive or in conflict. Therefore, any monk, friar, sister or group of them who want to engage in praise and worship may do so, provided that it is not forced on the community. The community’s duty with regards to common prayer is only to liturgy. Anything else is voluntary and is not to be taken as an endorsement by the order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Yes, Franciscans have their own practices and liturgical books and they’re not involved officially with Charismatic Renewal on any official level as orders.

Charismatic Renewal is a phenomenon in the Church that started in the 60s. It started at Duquesne University which is not a Franciscan University but a Spiritan one. This is another religious congregation in the Catholic church.

Most of the activity around Charismatic Renewal is now headquartered out of Catholic Charismatic Renewal, National Service Committee, a lay run organization. It’s not Franciscan and doesn’t really have anything concrete to do with the Franciscan Order, although some of the people involved have been Franciscans.

I think people have gotten the idea that Charismatic Renewal is Franciscan because Fr. Scanlon TOR, who has long been president of Franciscan University, brought charismatic prayer styles to Franciscan University years ago, and it’s frequently used on that campus so people associate it with us.

But no, even in Secular Franciscan gatherings, charismatic prayer isn’t really ever used. We have a Ritual that we use. franciscanresources.com/store/item/143vi/FRANCISCAN_BOOKS_ABOUT_PRAYER/RITUAL_OF_THE_SECULAR_FRANCISCAN_ORDER.html

 

[JReducation]

Yes, Franciscans have their own practices and liturgical books and they’re not involved officially with Charismatic Renewal on any official level as orders.

Charismatic Renewal is a phenomenon in the Church that started in the 60s. It started at Duquesne University which is not a Franciscan University but a Spiritan one. This is another religious congregation in the Catholic church.

Most of the activity around Charismatic Renewal is now headquartered out of Catholic Charismatic Renewal, National Service Committee, a lay run organization. It’s not Franciscan and doesn’t really have anything concrete to do with the Franciscan Order, although some of the people involved have been Franciscans.

I think people have gotten the idea that Charismatic Renewal is Franciscan because Fr. Scanlon TOR, who has long been president of Franciscan University, brought charismatic prayer styles to Franciscan University very early and it’s frequently used on that campus so people associate it with us.

But no, even in Secular Franciscan gatherings, charismatic prayer isn’t usually used. We have a Ritual that we use. franciscanresources.com/store/item/143vi/FRANCISCAN_BOOKS_ABOUT_PRAYER/RITUAL_OF_THE_SECULAR_FRANCISCAN_ORDER.html

You’re perfectly right. Mike Scanlon introduced Praise and Worship to Franciscan University at a time when the University was in great need of a spiritual face lift. The truth is that it worked. The University is one of the most Catholic colleges in America. People make the connection between Franciscan U., Franciscans and Charismatic Renewal.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, FFV

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, and even when we use prayers that aren’t in the official Ritual at gatherings, they’re very likely to be more traditional-type prayers that have to do with the Church calendar, like the Divine Mercy prayer on Mercy Sunday, the Rosary in May or a Litany of Saints in November.

Not all Franciscans are even comfortable with Charismatic style prayer. Some are; some aren’t, just like in every other group of Catholics, I would suppose. It’s perfectly all right, either way. There are a lot of good prayer styles in the Church for personal prayer. It’s one of the beauties of the Catholic Church. There’s something for everybody.

 

[Melchior_1]

Everyone thinks they know it. Unfortunately, what people think is not always the reality. There are 1.7 million Franciscans around the world. There is not a single house where Charistmatic Prayer is accepted as formal community prayer. The only form of prayer that may be a formal community prayer must be liturgical, not even the rosary can be forced on the community.

There are many Franciscans: friars, sisters and secular who are involved in the Charistmatic Movement. This is true. It is not true that the Franciscans are corporately involved with the Charismatic Renewal anymore than we’re involved with the Rosary Crusade, the Chaplet for Divine Mercy or the Blue Army.

The mendicants take the same position as the monks do. This is not a form of liturgical prayer. Therefore, it cannot be a formal form of community prayer. However, liturgical prayer and praise and worship are not mutually exclusive or in conflict. Therefore, any monk, friar, sister or group of them who want to engage in praise and worship may do so, provided that it is not forced on the community. The community’s duty with regards to common prayer is only to liturgy. Anything else is voluntary and is not to be taken as an endorsement by the order.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

The jist of my comment wasn’t that the Franciscan body as a whole endorses charisamticism, but rather several members are known to engage in said practices. Steubinville, run by Franciscans, is well know for this.

My apologies if it seemed like I was generalizing

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think Praise and Worship belongs to any particular religious family. I know that it has been used by Franciscans since the 13th century. It evolved, as all forms of prayer evolve. When the Evangelicals broke away from the Calvinists, they revived it it. Unlike the Franciscans of the 13th century for whom it was a personal form of prayer, not communal, for the Evangelical Protestants it became their communal form of prayer. That’s because they did not have a mass. They had scripture, praise and worship.

As I said, there are references to Francis and individual friars using this form of prayer. But there are no references to it being a communal form of prayer. This form of prayer was not Franciscan in origin. It existed in the early Church. Don’t ask me how it made it to the Middle Ages. I have no idea.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV