Dominus Iesus - Papal Declaration of 2000

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Bishop_Gavrilo

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Dear Catholic Brothers and Sisters,

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop and I would like to open a discussion on the meaning and effects of the Papal Declaration signed in 2000 by St. John Paul II and later re-confirmed (though, quite probably, unnecessarily) by His Holiness Benedict XVI.

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I am responsible for Eastern Orthodox people, priests and deacons in my eparchy, and as my eparchy is pre-dominantly a Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic county, Dominus Jesus is of an utmost importance to my everyday ecclesiastical life.

What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.

At the end, let me have a prayer:
O Most Holy Lady Theotokos, with my head bowed down I pray that you cover these participants of this discussion with your protection and motherly love. I pray for unity and brotherly love and peace, so that in peace and unity we can bring joy to your beloved son, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, amin.

In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
Dear Catholic Brothers and Sisters,

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop and I would like to open a discussion on the meaning and effects of the Papal Declaration signed in 2000 by St. John Paul II and later re-confirmed (though, quite probably, unnecessarily) by His Holiness Benedict XVI.

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I am responsible for Eastern Orthodox people, priests and deacons in my eparchy, and as my eparchy is pre-dominantly a Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic county, Dominus Jesus is of an utmost importance to my everyday ecclesiastical life.

What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.

At the end, let me have a prayer:
O Most Holy Lady Theotokos, with my head bowed down I pray that you cover these participants of this discussion with your protection and motherly love. I pray for unity and brotherly love and peace, so that in peace and unity we can bring joy to your beloved son, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, amin.

In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo
Click to expand...
I believe it was issued to address the thinking of certain Catholic theologians that were diverging from previously expressed teaching of the Catholic Church. The practical implementation of the teachings addressed are already embodied in existing Latin and eastern canon laws. The most recent Catholic statement that elaborates the topics involved is from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Listed there are the references of the prior statements:
The Second Vatican Council
Papal Encyclicals
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.
In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo
Click to expand...
Your Eminence,

I honestly was unaware of this missive and am grateful for PaulfromIowa in sharing that link. I have briefly read through it and found this

God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, “does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors’”.Therefore, the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain.

I will try and answer, it may help to understand how I came about this faith. It was God, Himself who has revealed it to me. I was born into a Roman Catholic family, who in the chaos of said church in the late 60’s, fled. So I grew up without the church, but with my faith in God. I have wandered in the Protestant churches, trying to find my way. I had God and the Bible. Then I discovered Eastern Orthodoxy, learning from a hieromonk under Vladyka Peter of Cleveland. Yet, I am neither Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, as neither would have me as I am Orthodox and I am Catholic. Yet, God has graciously and mercifully found me a home where I can be.

So, I guess, this is my real life experience with this declaration. It did not come about through theological study, but lived out, nonetheless.

Can I ask you a question, your Eminence? I frequent Orthodox vigils and attend Divine Liturgy in my own Maronite Parish. I find when I visit with my Catholic friends for Latin Mass, I can not approach communion. My feet become leaden, and I feel something holding me back. I believe God does not want me there but where He has placed me, between both. Have I answered my own question?

Thank you for visiting. Thank you for reading what comes out of my meager confused mind, as I have no spiritual director, the hieromonk is busy with his own flock and my priest has no patience with those struggling.
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
Dear Catholic Brothers and Sisters,

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop and I would like to open a discussion on the meaning and effects of the Papal Declaration signed in 2000 by St. John Paul II and later re-confirmed (though, quite probably, unnecessarily) by His Holiness Benedict XVI.

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I am responsible for Eastern Orthodox people, priests and deacons in my eparchy, and as my eparchy is pre-dominantly a Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic county, Dominus Jesus is of an utmost importance to my everyday ecclesiastical life.

What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.

At the end, let me have a prayer:
O Most Holy Lady Theotokos, with my head bowed down I pray that you cover these participants of this discussion with your protection and motherly love. I pray for unity and brotherly love and peace, so that in peace and unity we can bring joy to your beloved son, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, amin.

In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo
Click to expand...
Definitely a very important document. Largely concerned with non-Christian religions … but having said that, I do wish that e.g. those Catholic “apologists” who push the idea that baptized Christians who do not become Catholic (ICWR) can only get to heaven by “ignorance”, would take a look at Dominus Iesus.
 
Peter_J said:
Definitely a very important document. Largely concerned with non-Christian religions … but having said that, I do wish that e.g. those Catholic “apologists” who push the idea that baptized Christians who do not become Catholic (ICWR) can only get to heaven by “ignorance”, would take a look at Dominus Iesus.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate? I think I may be one of those “apologists” you mention, but something tells me we may be saying the same thing only through different words.

For example, my understanding of invincible ignorance, which may be incorrect, includes that a non-Catholic cannot be saved unless he or she is ignorant of the Church’s truth. The reason is that if he believed in the true Church, and did not unite to it at least in will, then he has fallen into the condemnation of Vatican 2: “Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” (Lumen Gentium 14)

Like I said, I think we may be saying the same thing, but merely talking past each other. And my understanding of this passage from Vatican 2 could certainly be incorrect. What are your thoughts?
 
dmar198 said:
“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.” (Lumen Gentium 14)
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Right. Many who haven’t read Dominus Iesus (e.g. "He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door” etc) interpret LG 14 as saying that baptized Christians who do not become Catholic (ICWR) can only get to heaven by “ignorance”.
 
Peter_J said:
Right. Many who haven’t read Dominus Iesus (e.g. "He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door” etc) interpret LG 14 as saying that baptized Christians who do not become Catholic (ICWR) can only get to heaven by “ignorance”.
Click to expand...
Ah, I think I see what you are saying. Correct me if I’m wrong: the Church says that baptized non-Catholics have entered the Church through their baptism, and therefore you think they don’t count as people who “refuse to enter” after learning about the Catholic Church. Is that right?
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
Dear Catholic Brothers and Sisters,

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop and I would like to open a discussion on the meaning and effects of the Papal Declaration signed in 2000 by St. John Paul II and later re-confirmed (though, quite probably, unnecessarily) by His Holiness Benedict XVI.

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I am responsible for Eastern Orthodox people, priests and deacons in my eparchy, and as my eparchy is pre-dominantly a Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic county, Dominus Jesus is of an utmost importance to my everyday ecclesiastical life.

What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.

At the end, let me have a prayer:
O Most Holy Lady Theotokos, with my head bowed down I pray that you cover these participants of this discussion with your protection and motherly love. I pray for unity and brotherly love and peace, so that in peace and unity we can bring joy to your beloved son, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, amin.

In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo
Click to expand...
What Church are you affiliated with and who are you in Communion with?
 
SyroMalankara said:
What Church are you affiliated with and who are you in Communion with?
Click to expand...
Dear Brother (or Sister),

I humbly beg your pardon, but what does it matter with whom I personally, or our synod, are in communion? This question is not a trick, nor is it to be construed as lack of openness.

But, let us say I tend to take certain suspicions when Roman Catholics start asking those questions. Same as “what is your Apostolic Succession” or “what rite was used in your ordination”. Again, not being offensive or assertive. Just have had certain experience. If your qustion is legitimate and pertains to the post, i.e. the papal declaration Dominus Iesus and its implementation, then I will gladly and openly answer.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo
 
In my personal experience, I am somewhat suspicious of forum members that claim to be higher clergy. Usually clerical members of the recognized Apostolic Churches - Roman, Eastern Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches - are too busy to post on sites like this, or keep to official communique. Bishops are even busier these days, so before I give the proper veneration to an authority, I like to verify that such veneration is warranted. It matters because you present yourself as “an Eastern Orthodox bishop”. Normally an “Eastern Orthodox bishop” will not present himself in that way.
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
Dear Brother (or Sister),

I humbly beg your pardon, but what does it matter with whom I personally, or our synod, are in communion? This question is not a trick, nor is it to be construed as lack of openness.

But, let us say I tend to take certain suspicions when Roman Catholics start asking those questions. Same as “what is your Apostolic Succession” or “what rite was used in your ordination”. Again, not being offensive or assertive. Just have had certain experience. If your qustion is legitimate and pertains to the post, i.e. the papal declaration Dominus Iesus and its implementation, then I will gladly and openly answer.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo
Click to expand...
I don’t have any particular insight into SyroMalankara’s thinking, but since you said you are an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I think it is entirely appropriate to ask if you mean that you are in full communion with the EP, MP, etc etc.
 
Dear All,

very well, the request seems legtimate and not to serve as a pretense to castigate or reprimand for not wanting to accept the truth in Catholicity etc., the good Lord knows we have been subjected to a lot of this.

As to whether there are many or few Eastern Orthodox clergy on forums like tis, I cannot attest to either way. My own experience is there are relatively few Eastern Orthodox hierarchs in the world that speak anything else but Romanian or Bulgarian or Russian or Ukrainian or Greek etc. But, of course, it is possible Catholics have different experience.

I am an Old Calendarist bishop, namely the Eastern Orthodox Archbishop of Prague and of Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia, full member of the episcopal synod of Biserica Vlahilor Ortodoxă de Stil Vechi. If you do not know what Old Calendarist movement is, I suggest Wikipedia or OrthodoxWiki.

We were granted Tomos of Autonomy from ROCOR in 2011, episcopacy from the same. We are in full union with Synod of Avlona (by far the largest Old Calendarist synod), Synod of Bergamo, and Russian True Orthodox Church. Pending communion status with Synod of Milano, Genuine Orthodox Church of America, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate. Our bishops are also currently negotiating with the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate (Belgrade) about possible full submission (if they allow us to keep the Old Calendar).

My Apostolic Succession is this:
Vitaliy Ustinov, the First Hierarch of ROCOR (please look him up), consecrated
Sergii Kindjakov the Metropolitan of Mansonville, who consecrated
Archbishop Anthony Orlov, who consecrated
Damascene Balabanov the Metropolitan of Moscow, who consecrated
Serafim Dorobat the Metroplitan of Vaslui and our First Hierarch, who along with the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Croatia consecrated all our bishops including me.

To be honest, I dislike these rolls and accounts for one reason: unless you are Eastern Orthodox and it is in your blood, it is huge migraine for people looking in from the outside. I unhappily admit that there is a lot of bad blood, schism and open hostlity in Eastern Orthodoxy. I do pray it is not so, but the situation does not appear to be improving.

Anyway, let us go back to Dominus Iesus now.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo
 
Peter_J said:
Thank you.

And, of course, welcome, as others have already said. 🙂
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I thank you kindly. I do appreciate these kind words.

Old Calendarists have a difficult position. Mainstream (Eastern) Orthodoxy despises us, Catholics believe we are all schismatics (or even heretics) anyway, Oriental Orthodox the same. Our own people often leave us for mainstream Eastern Orthodoxy (i.e. the New Calendar). We are build along episopal polity – in synods, but synods far too often split up, new ones arise, some simply wither or die out completely, or individual bishops leave for other synods… it is difficult to even keep track of the current situation of “who is presently with whom”.

So, not the best time to be an Old Calendarist Eastrn Orthodox bishop.

Ad Dominus Iesus: I have been praying since I was a little boy, that we might again all be one, as our beloved Lord wished. I am probably very naive, but I will pray for this without fail till my last day. I pray that my brothers in our synod and other synods have a loving heart and want to communicate and look for ways leading to unity.

Unia is obviously no longer a vital option in the 21st century, we think HH Francis can see it too. Also, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Eastern Orthodoxy, HH Bartholomew, is willing to make some, let us say, concessions as well.

I just wish so much there could be unity between Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church, as we were once in full unity, for a whole millenium.

Beloved Mother of God, please help us, amin.

+Gavrilo
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
it is difficult to even keep track of the current situation of “who is presently with whom”.
Click to expand...
:cool:

Actually, the only part that really gave me pause was “Pending communion status with … and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate.”

(But what do I know? 😊 :))
 
Sure, to explain, pending status on communion is a relatively common situation in Old Calendarist movement (which is a lot less united than people think). It is a situation where negotiations about the text of the Tomos of Communion are undergo, have been for some time, and it got to a stage where individual priests and bishops may decide to concelebrate with those from the other side or to commemorate them in the Divine Liturgy while not risking reprimanding from their own synod. You must be very careful with Holy Canons, they may catch up with you! 🙂

Oh, and the Kiev Patriarchate thing: well, presently there is a full-scale schism in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. About 60% faithful and clergy “temporarily submitted the leadership of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church to the wisdom of the Moscow Patriarchate”. The remaining 40% faithful and clergy declare it is nonsense and Russians can go you know where. Itis a political matter. You do know the Russians are trying to occupy Ukraine, right? Well, 25 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia is still trying to use “all means available” including bribing bishops and priests in key positions. I kid you not, I am quite familiar with the present situation. After all, it is my people, too.

In brotherly love,
+Gavrilo
 
Yes, the faithful are all victims of secular and religious politics. I lament the priest confronted by Christ on why because of politics he denied the sacraments to a child of God.
 
I have also heard that Russia is not very kind to Russian Catholics that they are constantly discriminated against by the orthodox as traitors.

I have heard that the orthodox reject the Immaculate conception of Our Lady one orthodox friend of mine even falsely accused us Catholics of wroshiping her.

Why do so many orthodox hate Catholics and attack Pope Francis.

I am a history major so I understand the bad blood between us which goes back to the fourth crusade which St. John Paul II made penance for towards the orthodox churches
 
Vico said:
I believe it was issued to address the thinking of certain Catholic theologians that were diverging from previously expressed teaching of the Catholic Church. The practical implementation of the teachings addressed are already embodied in existing Latin and eastern canon laws. The most recent Catholic statement that elaborates the topics involved is from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Listed there are the references of the prior statements:
The Second Vatican Council
Papal Encyclicals
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Click to expand...
This is the correct link to Ut unum sint:w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25051995_ut-unum-sint.html
 
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