Dominus Iesus - Papal Declaration of 2000

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Bishop_Gavrilo said:
. I never met this David Bell, so how can I be connected with his group… or whatever it is he runs there in England.
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I have never met Pope Francis yet I am still “connected with his group”.

Edited to add this:
facebook.com/milan.kucera?fref=nf

I just found this Facebook page which leads me to believe SyroMalankara is on to something. The name and the picture seem to match that of the linkedin page in post #62.
 
oliver927 said:
I have never met Pope Francis yet I am still “connected with his group”.

Edited to add this:
facebook.com/milan.kucera?fref=nf

I just found this Facebook page which leads me to believe SyroMalankara is on to something. The name and the picture seem to match that of the linkedin page in post #62.
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“Being onto something” means what exactly? For real, what exactly? Grounds enough to throw baseless accusations around? See, honest people, if they accuse someone of something, bring evidence. They do not say stuff like “maybe he is on to something”. I cannot prove I am not part of a group of which I am not part. I cannot prove David Bell did not lay his hands on me, nor anyone on whom David Bell laid his hands on. It is “Court Evidence 101” that you cannot prove a non-existent fact. On contratry, the other party has to prove their accusation. So, pull up some pictures with me and anyone from the group in question. Or better yet, prove my Holy Orders are in any way connected to a man who abused my old Facebook picture and put together some stuff to make his own story look good. Please, do.

You are an awfully kind lot, truly. There may be a reason there are not many Eastern Orthodox clergy in here. Christ would be thrilled at your behaviour. I have done nothing to anyone here but asked help and advice. Ah yes, and sent a few blessings and prayers. Perhaps that was what bothered you? Or the fact that an Eastern bishop dares come to a Catholic forum, asking for help at that?

I looked at the reference. Mr. Bell must have downloaded one of my old pictures from Facebook and put together some stuff with it. The picture is still there, you can find it yourself. I will not even bother with that website in question, it is not worth my time, it will wither and be gone. It looks like he did stuff like that before though, to other people, I read about some law suits coming even from an Italian cardinal.

But never mind, I am here about Dominus Iesus. To make it clear, if you want to write with respect to Dominus Iesus or possibilities for Orthodox people to receive Eucharist or Penance from Catholic clergy, or some other advice to the point, please share. If you are just about to launch some more aggression, attacks or accusations, ask yourself if Christ would do that before you do.

May you spread peace and kindness everywhere you go,
+Gavrilo
 
Why would Old Calendar Orthodox be interested in receiving from Gregorian Calendar Latins and mixed bag of Gregorian, Revised Julian and Julian-in-union with non-Julian Eastern Catholics – if the point of disagreement with Canonical Orthodoxy is the Calendar?
 
SyroMalankara said:
Why would Old Calendar Orthodox be interested in receiving from Gregorian Calendar Latins and mixed bag of Gregorian, Revised Julian and Julian-in-union with non-Julian Eastern Catholics – if the point of disagreement with Canonical Orthodoxy is the Calendar?
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One, he would not be interested in it for himself, as he would receive the Eucharist he himself celebrates in his Divine Liturgy of St. Ioann Chrysostomos. But, as he might be in charge of faithful that are out of reach and he might have received some complaints this year, he might be actually trying to do the job the Holy Spirit commissioned him with and do his best to help his people. This includes several methods, one of which is form more men for Holy Orders and make a reasonable schedule for pastoral visits. Also, incidentally, he may be holding onto a belief the Roman Catholic Church was serious when promulgating Dominus Iesus.

Two, he might actually hold the weird belief that the Holy Mysteries, and foremost of all the Eucharist Christ, are the centerpoint of human life on this Earth, and his beloved flock should have access to it even if he cannot ensure that access himself. He might believe that the beautiful liturgical calendar (today is November 3 of the Patristic Calendar, and we commemorate Martyrs Acepsimas the Bishop, Joseph the Presbyter, and Aeithalas of Persia) passed on to us by our beloved Church Fathers is worth observing, even if the so called World Orthodoxy or, as you called it, Canonical Orthodoxy, considers it schismatic to continue to observe a calendar thrown away as obsolete. He may have been offered a position of a parish priest, in several places in the world, in World Othodoxy, but never was he offered to keep his Calendar. He may have been offered to pass through the gate of Unia, along the lines of the Second Vatican Council, but never was he offered to keep his flock, his Calendar, and the men in his formation. He understands the grounds for all that, such is the world. And yet he does his best looking for a solution for his out-of-reach people. Even by posting a thread on a Catholic forum. And if all those options come to naught, he will have to try and write a written request for a personal meeting to His Excellency Mons. Giuseppe Leanza, the Apostolic Nuncio in Prague. And he will pray this last resort works out.

Be in peace, SyroMalankara.
In kindness, +Gavrilo
 
Clear, this thread is now very largely about “non-canonical Orthodox Churches”. People might take a look at these search results …

Where to begin? :cool:
 
SyroMalankara said:
Why would Old Calendar Orthodox be interested in receiving from Gregorian Calendar Latins and mixed bag of Gregorian, Revised Julian and Julian-in-union with non-Julian Eastern Catholics – if the point of disagreement with Canonical Orthodoxy is the Calendar?
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Do they not worship the same God?

What God do you worship that you attack with such vehemence someone who has asked a question? Does everyone here at CAF have to provide their personal information for you to consider them human?

Father forgive them for scales have blinded them. The world is full of lost souls with no one to guide them. If someone is not against God, it should not matter to us.
 
dmar198 said:
I think the Russian Greek Catholic Church currently Does have a bishop. According to this Wikipedia article, “Bishop Joseph Werth [is] the Latin-rite Apostolic Administrator of Siberia, based in Novosibirsk [Russia], [and] was appointed by Pope John Paul II as Ordinary for all Eastern Catholics in the Russian Federation [in 2005].”
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From CNEWA on Russian Greek Catholic Church:

In 2004 Pope John Paul II nominated Bishop Joseph Werth of the Latin Diocese of the Transfiguration in Novosibirsk as Ordinary bishop for Catholics of the Byzantine rite in Russia, but the Apostolic Exarchate has no other structures. There are now five parishes registered in Siberia, and in Moscow there are two parishes and one pastoral center that are not registered with the authorities. There is also one non-registered community in Obninsk and a community in Saint Petersburg. For many decades Russian Catholics were limited to a scattered presence in the diaspora. There are four Russian Byzantine Catholic worshiping communities in the United States, two each in Argentina, France, and Germany, and one each in Australia, Brazil, and Italy. All of them fall under the jurisdiction of the local Latin bishops.
 
From what I know from Russia, the situation might be different if the Russians (Orthodox) passing through the gate of Unia had a couple bishops ngoimg with hem, or at least one. As was the situation in other countries. I am certain some pondered that idea even. But, as it is, the Russian Federation exercises a lot of oppression against Unia and every bishop uniting with the Vatican would be severly persecuted.

+Gavrilo
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
From what I know from Russia, the situation might be different if the Russians (Orthodox) passing through the gate of Unia had a couple bishops ngoimg with hem, or at least one. As was the situation in other countries. I am certain some pondered that idea even. But, as it is, the Russian Federation exercises a lot of oppression against Unia and every bishop uniting with the Vatican would be severly persecuted.

+Gavrilo
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The last major union was Syro-Malankara, occurring in 1930 through the leadership of Mar Ivanios.

The Catholic Church has attempted to eliminate proselytism, and has stated the principle in Vatican II document, Dignitatis humanae:Religious communities also have the right not to be hindered in their public teaching and witness to their faith, whether by the spoken or by the written word. However, in spreading religious faith and in introducing religious practices everyone ought at all times to refrain from any manner of action which might seem to carry a hint of coercion or of a kind of persuasion that would be dishonorable or unworthy, especially when dealing with poor or uneducated people. Such a manner of action would have to be considered an abuse of one’s right and a violation of the right of others.
 
Casilda said:
Do they not worship the same God?

What God do you worship that you attack with such vehemence someone who has asked a question? Does everyone here at CAF have to provide their personal information for you to consider them human?
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Those are good questions.
 
Casilda said:
Do they not worship the same God?

What God do you worship that you attack with such vehemence someone who has asked a question? Does everyone here at CAF have to provide their personal information for you to consider them human?
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I treat everyone equally, however, if one presents themselves as “His Holiness”, one has a right to question the claim.
Father forgive them for scales have blinded them. The world is full of lost souls with no one to guide them. If someone is not against God, it should not matter to us.
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How would one know if we don’t question? We shouldn’t assume every Tom, Dick and Metropolitan is who he claims just because he says so.
 
Peter_J said:
Was that supposed to go on a thread about the Protestant Reformation?
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I’m still on the fence about the claims of “HH Gregory XVIII, HH Raphael Titus Otieno, HH Romanus On’gombe, HH Michael I, and HH Alexander IX”, not to mention “Pastors” Joel Osteen, anyone on the TBM channel, Creflo Dollar, Jimmy Swaggert and the rest of the circus - does that make me a protestant?
 
SyroMalankara said:
I’m still on the fence about the claims of “HH Gregory XVIII, HH Raphael Titus Otieno, HH Romanus On’gombe, HH Michael I, and HH Alexander IX”, not to mention “Pastors” Joel Osteen, anyone on the TBM channel, Creflo Dollar, Jimmy Swaggert and the rest of the circus - does that make me a protestant?
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Well yes, except that I don’t follow any of those Pope either, so I would collude in calling you a Non-Protestant. :cool:
 
Peter_J said:
Are you envisioning something like this:Assyrians Diocese elects for full communion ?
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Not sure I imply that right (or “infer”? I am lost in these details of English language, sorry).
I am in absolutely good standing with my synod and the other synods with which we are in full communion. I am at friendly terms with many other East Orthodox vladykas with which we are officially not in communion. I exercicse brotherly love and consider it a way of life rahter than policy. That being said, I am an eparch and have responsibility for my flock. It is a responsibility that the Holy Spirit placed upon my shoulders and one day I shall give account of my office. I love my flock and my heart bleeds when I, not being too well off financially, cannot be available to some dispersed through my eparchy to serve them the Holy Mysteries. I refuse to believe it is a question of “Holy Spirit wanted it this way, it is a test” when there may be something to actually do about it.

Also, unlike the Assyrian Mar in question, I seek no profit for myself, I am not doing anythng for any political reasons, I want no political capital out of this. I was already offered to enter the gate of Unia, from three different sources, and most surely with the best and most honest of intentions (no sarcasm used or intended), but I simply have a certain responsibility now and cannot accept that. I do believe there is a way the Church can breathe with both lungs and I intend to do my best to find the equilibrium. Dominus Iesus, and I beg your pardon if you RCCs see things differently than an Eastern bishop, seemed to me to be a good instrument for that. If you see a more practical way, please share. This is why I posted the discussion in the first place.

And thank you kindly for taking the discussion back to tracck and away from personal attacks and hostility towards me and my flock. I appreciate your effort.

I also appologize for taking a week offf, we had a plenary session of the synod in Greece, some ordinations, several divine liturgies (our Mt. Athos version of the Divine Liturgy of St. Ioann Chrysostomos takes between 3-5 hours depending on how many ordinations and consecrations there are and other details. It can be very exhausting).

A prayer for unity: May our most belloved mother, the Lady Theeotokos, bring us all together as her children through her immacualte heart, for she alone of all of mankind was worthy of becoming the perfect vessel for the most beautiful of all gifts to us, our beloved Lord and Master Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. Domne pomiluj, amin.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo, Bishop of Czechia
Exarchate of Vlahia of the Greek Orthodox Church
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
Not sure I imply that right (or “infer”? I am lost in these details of English language, sorry).
I am in absolutely good standing with my synod and the other synods with which we are in full communion. I am at friendly terms with many other East Orthodox vladykas with which we are officially not in communion. I exercicse brotherly love and consider it a way of life rahter than policy. That being said, I am an eparch and have responsibility for my flock. It is a responsibility that the Holy Spirit placed upon my shoulders and one day I shall give account of my office. I love my flock and my heart bleeds when I, not being too well off financially, cannot be available to some dispersed through my eparchy to serve them the Holy Mysteries. I refuse to believe it is a question of “Holy Spirit wanted it this way, it is a test” when there may be something to actually do about it.

Also, unlike the Assyrian Mar in question, I seek no profit for myself, I am not doing anythng for any political reasons, I want no political capital out of this. I was already offered to enter the gate of Unia, from three different sources, and most surely with the best and most honest of intentions (no sarcasm used or intended), but I simply have a certain responsibility now and cannot accept that. I do believe there is a way the Church can breathe with both lungs and I intend to do my best to find the equilibrium. Dominus Iesus, and I beg your pardon if you RCCs see things differently than an Eastern bishop, seemed to me to be a good instrument for that. If you see a more practical way, please share. This is why I posted the discussion in the first place.
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"I … I … I … " (no pun intended) but not much in all that clarifies anything about “every bishop uniting with the Vatican”, which is what I was responding to. Which is alright, if that’s how you want to go, but I thought I should point it out. 🙂
And thank you kindly for taking the discussion back to tracck and away from personal attacks and hostility towards me and my flock. I appreciate your effort.
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I also appologize for taking a week offf, we had a plenary session of the synod in Greece, some ordinations, several divine liturgies (our Mt. Athos version of the Divine Liturgy of St. Ioann Chrysostomos takes between 3-5 hours depending on how many ordinations and consecrations there are and other details. It can be very exhausting).
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A prayer for unity: May our most belloved mother, the Lady Theeotokos, bring us all together as her children through her immacualte heart, for she alone of all of mankind was worthy of becoming the perfect vessel for the most beautiful of all gifts to us, our beloved Lord and Master Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. Domne pomiluj, amin.
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In Christ,
+Gavrilo, Bishop of Czechia
Exarchate of Vlahia of the Greek Orthodox Church
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You’re very welcome.

I find that people tend to go to both extremes: I predict that some will criticize you in the strongest terms for even saying that you’re a bishop … and others won’t even think it matters whether you’re a “canonical” Orthodox bishop or not.
 
Bishop_Gavrilo said:
A prayer for unity: May our most belloved mother, the Lady Theeotokos, bring us all together as her children through her immacualte heart, for she alone of all of mankind was worthy of becoming the perfect vessel for the most beautiful of all gifts to us, our beloved Lord and Master Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God. Domne pomiluj, amin.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo, Bishop of Czechia
Exarchate of Vlahia of the Greek Orthodox Church
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You are very kind, and you seem very ecumenical to me. 🙂 Perhaps your community and mine have different understandings of what ecumenism means. To me, it means being friendly, urging one another to pray for unity, and discussing commonalities. And I think all of those are good things, as long as they don’t go to the point of ignoring religious differences, which of course must be overcome before full unity can be reached.
 
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