Dominus Iesus - Papal Declaration of 2000

[Vico]

Dear Catholic Brothers and Sisters,

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop and I would like to open a discussion on the meaning and effects of the Papal Declaration signed in 2000 by St. John Paul II and later re-confirmed (though, quite probably, unnecessarily) by His Holiness Benedict XVI.

I am an Eastern Orthodox bishop, I am responsible for Eastern Orthodox people, priests and deacons in my eparchy, and as my eparchy is pre-dominantly a Roman Catholic and Greek Catholic county, Dominus Jesus is of an utmost importance to my everyday ecclesiastical life.

What I am interested in:

–what you think about Dominus Iesus and the background (the declaration did not appear “out of thin air”)
–how it is implemented in your metropolia
–how it should be understood and implemented
–what practical problems it may represent and how to deal with them
–how you view the existence of the declaration in relation to Orthodox faithful
–if you have any real-life experience with the declaration, please share.

I would humbly ask for a constructive discussion. I am, in turn, genuinely interested in your posts.

At the end, let me have a prayer:
O Most Holy Lady Theotokos, with my head bowed down I pray that you cover these participants of this discussion with your protection and motherly love. I pray for unity and brotherly love and peace, so that in peace and unity we can bring joy to your beloved son, our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ, amin.

In Love,
–Vladyka Gavrilo

The practical aspects of reception of the sacraments by Catholics are given in canon law and elaborated on in the Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism123. Whenever necessity requires or a genuine spiritual advantage suggests, and provided that the danger of error or indifferentism is avoided, it is lawful for any Catholic for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister, to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist and anointing of the sick from a minister of an Eastern Church. 128

[128] Cf. *CIC, *can. 844, 2 and *CCEO, *can. 671, 2.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_25031993_principles-and-norms-on-ecumenism_en.html

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

Two things:

One, I often preach about it. It is nott allowed to press on Catholics to come back to Orthodoxy. We, the bishops, have so ruled, and it is the solemn duty of the faithful to obey their bishops. We are (I think) less liberal in observation of obedience to bishops than the West. Freedom of Conscience (even to sin and to fall into heresy --and I am now NOT speaking about our faithful going through the door of Unia or about Roman Catholics, I am speaking generally) was granted by Holy Spirit the Lifegiver, he will not meddle with that, so neither must we.

Two, you cannot imagine how my heart bleeds when our faithful tell me this or that priest or bishop refused to hear their confession or to give them the Eucharist. Truly, when at home, surrounded by icons and praying, I weep. Not often, but sometimes I do. I always tell them: “No, no, that cannot be, my dearest child. Come to me, and you shall participate in the Holy Mysteries of our beloved Church passing into this world from the Holy Spirit through my hands.” I often have a prophetic dream, and I tell our piests and deacons about it. It is a tad mysterious, but I am pretty sure Roman Catholics can take a little mysticism. I am standing before the Throne of the Father,he is the judge. Satan is there as the Accuser, and accuses me before the Father. Christ is there too, as my Defense, but he presently just waits what happens. Satan holds out his hand and on his palm I can see my whole life. There are some stains and black dots I am not proud of before my Father in Heaven. But, there are a good number of shining bright points, too. I focus my sight and I see these are all the Holy Confessions that I heard, all the Eucharists that I celebrated, all the Baptisms and Myrrhopomazanie (in Catholic language: Holy Confirmations) that I performed. I will be very, very, very happy for those, trust me. So, in a word, yes. The Holy Mysteries are not our. They are the Holy Spirit himself, flowing into this world, descending upon his beloved people. We, priests and bishops, are but a vessel. A tool. An instrument. So let us serve as such!

I send you peace, beloved Catholic brothers and sister.
+Gavrilo

 

[dmar198]

Two things:

One, I often preach about it. It is nott allowed to press on Catholics to come back to Orthodoxy. We, the bishops, have so ruled, and it is the solemn duty of the faithful to obey their bishops. We are (I think) less liberal in observation of obedience to bishops than the West. Freedom of Conscience (even to sin and to fall into heresy --and I am now NOT speaking about our faithful going through the door of Unia or about Roman Catholics, I am speaking generally) was granted by Holy Spirit the Lifegiver, he will not meddle with that, so neither must we.

Two, you cannot imagine how my heart bleeds when our faithful tell me this or that priest or bishop refused to hear their confession or to give them the Eucharist. Truly, when at home, surrounded by icons and praying, I weep. Not often, but sometimes I do. I always tell them: “No, no, that cannot be, my dearest child. Come to me, and you shall participate in the Holy Mysteries of our beloved Church passing into this world from the Holy Spirit through my hands.” I often have a prophetic dream, and I tell our piests and deacons about it. It is a tad mysterious, but I am pretty sure Roman Catholics can take a little mysticism. I am standing before the Throne of the Father,he is the judge. Satan is there as the Accuser, and accuses me before the Father. Christ is there too, as my Defense, but he presently just waits what happens. Satan holds out his hand and on his palm I can see my whole life. There are some stains and black dots I am not proud of before my Father in Heaven. But, there are a good number of shining bright points, too. I focus my sight and I see these are all the Holy Confessions that I heard, all the Eucharists that I celebrated, all the Baptisms and Myrrhopomazanie (in Catholic language: Holy Confirmations) that I performed. I will be very, very, very happy for those, trust me. So, in a word, yes. The Holy Mysteries are not our. They are the Holy Spirit himself, flowing into this world, descending upon his beloved people. We, priests and bishops, are but a vessel. A tool. An instrument. So let us serve as such!

I send you peace, beloved Catholic brothers and sister.
+Gavrilo

Your mystical vision is beautiful to me, Bishop Gavrilo. Let us all pray that we can have as many shining moments when we stand before the Lord.

You say that you have heard of bishops and priests who will not hear someone’s confession or give them the Eucharist. I cannot understand why a priest or bishop would ever not hear someone’s confession. But I do think the Scriptures call us to sometimes not give a person Communion. For example, sometimes a person comes to our altar who is not a Catholic, often they are not even a practicing Christian, but they want to receive because they happened to come to Mass and that is what everyone else there is doing. We have little books explaining that Holy Communion signifies how we are all one body, and we cannot receive it when we have not reached the kind of union called for by Scripture.

Scripture mentions this at least concerning Jewish non-Christians: “We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.” Hebrews 13:10. I don’t think you would give Holy Communion to a man who was not a practicing Christian, but that is a common reason why it is not given to people who claim to desire it at Catholic Churches. What are your thoughts?

 

[Casilda]

…The Holy Mysteries are not our. They are the Holy Spirit himself, flowing into this world, descending upon his beloved people. We, priests and bishops, are but a vessel. A tool. An instrument. So let us serve as such!

I send you peace, beloved Catholic brothers and sister.
+Gavrilo

Add another bright shining point. You have lifted my spirits today. The icon below has a lot of meaning for me. The first time I saw it, on the wall of an Orthodox friend’s livingroom, I cried tears of joy. It was the first icon that didn’t have to be explained to me. At home I have an older, Russian version.

Its meaning for someone who was initially denied baptism as an infant, first holy communion as a child, ignored as a teenager trying to ‘revert’ into the church my parents removed us from, struggling with parish after parish as an adult, told my 30+ plus year marriage to my Protestant husband (who is an Eastern Catholic now) was not a marriage and invalid, a priest refused to hear my confession on that. I did not marry a Catholic but I did know to marry a believer. That last slap in the face made me give up permanently trying to revert. I am only Eastern Catholic because my husband converted and as his spouse his Bishop transferred me in. I did not have to petition ‘my’ Bishop, as he did not know who I was or if I even existed.

And people wonder why I still visit an Eastern Orthodox parish. I find the Father, Son and Holy Spirit there, Mary and the saints, too.

I belong to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

I am but one victim of church politics, which obviously started in Jesus’ own lifetime here on earth with us, as the icon represents.

It is the cross I bear. I hope to open the eyes of church staff, priests, etc of the damage to souls they cause.

I am the child in His lap, always have been. The men are the church trying to shoo me away.

 

[Peter_J]

Your mystical vision is beautiful to me, Bishop Gavrilo. Let us all pray that we can have as many shining moments when we stand before the Lord.

You say that you have heard of bishops and priests who will not hear someone’s confession or give them the Eucharist. I cannot understand why a priest or bishop would ever not hear someone’s confession. But I do think the Scriptures call us to sometimes not give a person Communion. For example, sometimes a person comes to our altar who is not a Catholic, often they are not even a practicing Christian, but they want to receive because they happened to come to Mass and that is what everyone else there is doing. We have little books explaining that Holy Communion signifies how we are all one body, and we cannot receive it when we have not reached the kind of union called for by Scripture.

Scripture mentions this at least concerning Jewish non-Christians: “We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat.” Hebrews 13:10. I don’t think you would give Holy Communion to a man who was not a practicing Christian, but that is a common reason why it is not given to people who claim to desire it at Catholic Churches. What are your thoughts?

Good point.

I’ve also encountered Anglicans who were upset that they couldn’t receive in a Catholic church, Catholics who were upset that they couldn’t receive in a Orthodox church, etc.

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

Please do not get me wrong, as a bishop it is my solemn duty to fight heresy. But that is not the case I was talking about. I meant cases where the faithful should by all means receive the Mystery but for political reasons priests and bishops refuse. To give you an example, very common one: a divorced woman comes to me. She is Greek-Catholic (Uniate). Her husband is Orthodox. He left her years ago, she got a divorce by state court, but failed at the ecclesiastical court. The local priest refuses to baptize her two little daughters, on account she is divorced and the children’s father is Orthodox. Her Orthodox priest (not one of mine) refused to baptize her daughters because she is not Orthodox. I do this: I ask her to cite the Creed of Constantinople before me, an Orthodox bishop, I give her Myrrhopomazanie, I ask her to declare full adherence to the holy canons, holy tradition and seven ecumenical councils. After this, as a bishop I am fully satisfied and baptize her girls. I also ask her to make a humble confession of sins, I grant her absolution, and then I give her and her girls the Eucharist (I give the girls Myrrhopomazanie first)

See? Heart first, then red tape second. Plus, I am quite sure this is a legal way. And, who is the eparch here? Aren’t I? I do not prefer using my power, I prefer heart and kindness, but sometimes one must, you know. I undetstand all the legal reasons why the EC and EO priests refused. I just am not like them. I see a way, they do not want to see a way. I am an eparch, a Vladyka, I can afford to apply ecclesiastical oekonomia. EO bishops have applied oekonomia since the beginning.

So, if you ever visit Prague, write me, we will have some tea and pirozhky and talk Eastern things.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

 

[SyroMalankara]

Please do not get me wrong, as a bishop it is my solemn duty to fight heresy. But that is not the case I was talking about. I meant cases where the faithful should by all means receive the Mystery but for political reasons priests and bishops refuse. To give you an example, very common one: a divorced woman comes to me. She is Greek-Catholic (Uniate). Her husband is Orthodox. He left her years ago, she got a divorce by state court, but failed at the ecclesiastical court. The local priest refuses to baptize her two little daughters, on account she is divorced and the children’s father is Orthodox. Her Orthodox priest (not one of mine) refused to baptize her daughters because she is not Orthodox. I do this: I ask her to cite the Creed of Constantinople before me, an Orthodox bishop, I give her Myrrhopomazanie, I ask her to declare full adherence to the holy canons, holy tradition and seven ecumenical councils. After this, as a bishop I am fully satisfied and baptize her girls. I also ask her to make a humble confession of sins, I grant her absolution, and then I give her and her girls the Eucharist (I give the girls Myrrhopomazanie first)

See? Heart first, then red tape second. Plus, I am quite sure this is a legal way. And, who is the eparch here? Aren’t I? I do not prefer using my power, I prefer heart and kindness, but sometimes one must, you know. I undetstand all the legal reasons why the EC and EO priests refused. I just am not like them. I see a way, they do not want to see a way. I am an eparch, a Vladyka, I can afford to apply ecclesiastical oekonomia. EO bishops have applied oekonomia since the beginning.

So, if you ever visit Prague, write me, we will have some tea and pirozhky and talk Eastern things.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

So you’ve given her and her children Eucharist, however, you’ve also severed her communion from her Church body and her bishop, and also usurped the authority of the bishop who’s care she is entrusted to. If any of them decide to go to any other body, outside of your limited communion, they will be refused and considered in schism because they have inadvertently (or by your laxity) joined your jurisdiction.

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

So you’ve given her and her children Eucharist, however, you’ve also severed her communion from her Church body and her bishop, and also usurped the authority of the bishop who’s care she is entrusted to. If any of them decide to go to any other body, outside of your limited communion, they will be refused and considered in schism because they have inadvertently (or by your laxity) joined your jurisdiction.

I have not done, she has, let us be clear about that. And I granted many requests like this. I can do nothing against the person’s will, however, can I?

Plus, quite clearly this is what she wanted. I made it possible for a Mystery to occur in our world. Love each other! That is the commandment. Trying to arouse guilt in me shall not succeed. I see clearly what happened, a good thing happened. I am absolutely certain that the Holy Spirit wanted her girls baptized and wanted her and them to receive the Eucharist. And, honestly, receiving Euchatist may just be the most important thing in this world. So yes, I shall not be sorry for this. And, honestly, neither shall she. Reading some Thomas of Aquinn should be in place. Anything leading us to a sacrament is the fruit of a good tree. Basically, anything leading us to Orthodoxy is a good thing.

By the way, the argument I hear from Catholics about how we Easterners severed someone’s communion from the See of Rome is getting a bit old. It is not more important than Holy Mysteries, and we do not sever anyone from anything in the first place. If anything, I declare the priests who denied this woman the baptisms for her innocent children shall have to explain themselves to our Heavenly Father one day. I wonder if they shall try to argue saying they were just applying this or that paragraph of the law.

I wish more Catholics and also more Orthodox used their heart more than their mind. Love each other!

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

 

[SyroMalankara]

I have not done, she has, let us be clear about that. And I granted many requests like this. I can do nothing against the person’s will, however, can I?

Plus, quite clearly this is what she wanted. I made it possible for a Mystery to occur in our world. Love each other! That is the commandment. Trying to arouse guilt in me shall not succeed. I see clearly what happened, a good thing happened. I am absolutely certain that the Holy Spirit wanted her girls baptized and wanted her and them to receive the Eucharist. And, honestly, receiving Euchatist may just be the most important thing in this world. So yes, I shall not be sorry for this. And, honestly, neither shall she. Reading some Thomas of Aquinn should be in place. Anything leading us to a sacrament is the fruit of a good tree. Basically, anything leading us to Orthodoxy is a good thing.

By the way, the argument I hear from Catholics about how we Easterners severed someone’s communion from the See of Rome is getting a bit old. It is not more important than Holy Mysteries, and we do not sever anyone from anything in the first place. If anything, I declare the priests who denied this woman the baptisms for her innocent children shall have to explain themselves to our Heavenly Father one day. I wonder if they shall try to argue saying they were just applying this or that paragraph of the law.

I wish more Catholics and also more Orthodox used their heart more than their mind. Love each other!

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

This entire charade is getting a bit old. Your “giving communion” to someone that is a member of any church would be severing their communion with their legitimate bishops. Leaving out the Catholics, no Orthodox recognize your chrismation, let alone Eucharist - so you’ve severed Orthodox from their bishops if you have ‘received and Communed’ them as you claim.

Where exactly is this Cathedral parish of yours located, is it virtual or a real building with actual members? How many priests do you oversee?

 

[Peter_J]

Please do not get me wrong, as a bishop it is my solemn duty to fight heresy. But that is not the case I was talking about. I meant cases where the faithful should by all means receive the Mystery but for political reasons priests and bishops refuse. To give you an example, very common one: a divorced woman comes to me. She is Greek-Catholic (Uniate). Her husband is Orthodox. He left her years ago, she got a divorce by state court, but failed at the ecclesiastical court. The local priest refuses to baptize her two little daughters, on account she is divorced and the children’s father is Orthodox. Her Orthodox priest (not one of mine) refused to baptize her daughters because she is not Orthodox. I do this: I ask her to cite the Creed of Constantinople before me, an Orthodox bishop, I give her Myrrhopomazanie, I ask her to declare full adherence to the holy canons, holy tradition and seven ecumenical councils. After this, as a bishop I am fully satisfied and baptize her girls. I also ask her to make a humble confession of sins, I grant her absolution, and then I give her and her girls the Eucharist (I give the girls Myrrhopomazanie first)

See? Heart first, then red tape second. Plus, I am quite sure this is a legal way. And, who is the eparch here? Aren’t I? I do not prefer using my power, I prefer heart and kindness, but sometimes one must, you know. I undetstand all the legal reasons why the EC and EO priests refused. I just am not like them. I see a way, they do not want to see a way. I am an eparch, a Vladyka, I can afford to apply ecclesiastical oekonomia. EO bishops have applied oekonomia since the beginning.

So, if you ever visit Prague, write me, we will have some tea and pirozhky and talk Eastern things.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

Yes, that’s understandable.

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

This entire charade is getting a bit old. Your “giving communion” to someone that is a member of any church would be severing their communion with their legitimate bishops. Leaving out the Catholics, no Orthodox recognize your chrismation, let alone Eucharist - so you’ve severed Orthodox from their bishops if you have ‘received and Communed’ them as you claim.

Where exactly is this Cathedral parish of yours located, is it virtual or a real building with actual members? How many priests do you oversee?

In all patience and brotherly love I shall most kindly ask you to refrain from any attacks, offensive posts and unnecessary vocabulary in this forum. Calling an Eastern bishop doing what the Church has always done a “charade” might be construed as violation of the rules of this forum. I will not even comment on your unwarranted opinions as to validity of the Holy Mysteries that I administer. It seems a bit ironic this is a thread on Dominus Iesus, which speaks about Orthodox clergy administering Holy Mysteries.

I understand you got upset by something in this thread. In such a case, rather than being offensive or abusive you might just find other threads more to your taste. Naturally, I cannot force you to read this thread, even less so to actively participate in it. But, if you have any constructive comments that you want to share, you are cordially welcome to stay.

I consider it my duty to caringly, lovingly and patiently lead people toward Orthodoxy. I wish more Orthodox bishops cared for that more, rather than for their income, car, books, sets of liturgical vestments and mitras. I do not cast guilt or castigate or reprimand, I do not feel that would be proper. But I do pray for my dear brothers in episcopate daily, without fail, that they may be the shepherds that Christ wanted them to be. And that I, unworthy of the office, may be one such as well.

As to non-Orthodox bishops: we are well known to not care for them and their jurisdictions very much. No disrespect intented, we do not disdain them, look down on them, mean them bad… we just do not care about them very much, is all.

To come to the point: does anyone have any specific eperience about the practical usage of Dominus Iesus that (s)he might want to share? All the quotes and red-bolted lines are letter of the law, and that is all nice, but you can google that up in five seconds. I am interested in the practical.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

 

[SyroMalankara]

In all patience and brotherly love I shall most kindly ask you to refrain from any attacks, offensive posts and unnecessary vocabulary in this forum. Calling an Eastern bishop doing what the Church has always done a “charade” might be construed as violation of the rules of this forum. I will not even comment on your unwarranted opinions as to validity of the Holy Mysteries that I administer. It seems a bit ironic this is a thread on Dominus Iesus, which speaks about Orthodox clergy administering Holy Mysteries.

I understand you got upset by something in this thread. In such a case, rather than being offensive or abusive you might just find other threads more to your taste. Naturally, I cannot force you to read this thread, even less so to actively participate in it. But, if you have any constructive comments that you want to share, you are cordially welcome to stay.

I consider it my duty to caringly, lovingly and patiently lead people toward Orthodoxy. I wish more Orthodox bishops cared for that more, rather than for their income, car, books, sets of liturgical vestments and mitras. I do not cast guilt or castigate or reprimand, I do not feel that would be proper. But I do pray for my dear brothers in episcopate daily, without fail, that they may be the shepherds that Christ wanted them to be. And that I, unworthy of the office, may be one such as well.

As to non-Orthodox bishops: we are well known to not care for them and their jurisdictions very much. No disrespect intented, we do not disdain them, look down on them, mean them bad… we just do not care about them very much, is all.

To come to the point: does anyone have any specific eperience about the practical usage of Dominus Iesus that (s)he might want to share? All the quotes and red-bolted lines are letter of the law, and that is all nice, but you can google that up in five seconds. I am interested in the practical.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

You are very good at this. However, I am not upset nor were you, Orthodoxy, the Mysteries, any persons, faiths, etc “Attacked” by me. It is a common tactic of persons that do not desire their credentials to be questioned to divert and dodge, and often setup the person asking as an angry or intolerant, while self proclaiming victim hood. Your user name suggests an episcopal ordination - it is against forum rules to impersonate clergy. You have stated your Communion as Eastern Orthodox but you are not in Communion with any recognizable Eastern Orthodox. You happily receive elevated greeting from those that trust the statements (vladyka, etc) but are upset when asked simple direct questions - those that any normal bishop would quickly and easily answer with references.

My hunch is that you are not that which is claimed, until you state otherwise in a satisfactory manner, I assume you are one of many vagante independents with a self-proclaimed title and no congregation, except perhaps in virtual reality or online.

 

[Vico]

…

To come to the point: does anyone have any specific eperience about the practical usage of Dominus Iesus that (s)he might want to share? All the quotes and red-bolted lines are letter of the law, and that is all nice, but you can google that up in five seconds. I am interested in the practical.

In Christ,
+Gavrilo

Dominus Iesus was directed to various Catholic Theologians. The more applicable document is the Papal Encyclical Et unum sint.

I am Byzantine Catholic, and in our parish, the pastor follows the canon law. We have various people that come to our parish, including Orthodox and Christians in non-apostolic ecclesial communities. Since our pastor know his congregation, he follows the sacramental discipline for each, so of course, the Holy Mysteries are not administered to those that are not to receive them by the canon law. We have classes occasionally, which are open to any, and we do have non Catholics there.

We honor all Christians, as expressed in Et unum sint (On Commitment to Ecumenism), referring to Vatican II Council’s Decree on Ecumenism:“13. The same Document carefully draws out the doctrinal implications of this situation. Speaking of the members of these Communities, it declares: “All those justified by faith through Baptism are incorporated into Christ. They therefore have a right to be honoured by the title of Christian, and are properly regarded as brothers and sisters in the Lord by the sons and daughters of the Catholic Church”.”

 

[dmar198]

To come to the point: does anyone have any specific eperience about the practical usage of Dominus Iesus that (s)he might want to share? All the quotes and red-bolted lines are letter of the law, and that is all nice, but you can google that up in five seconds. I am interested in the practical.

It is difficult for me to point out specific examples of how Dominus Iesus is used. That’s not because the document isn’t used, but it’s because magisterial documents are rarely brought up explicitly when changes are made at Catholic churches.

Let me give an example. There are several reasons why Catholics might go to their local church during any given week. Sunday Mass and feast days are one reason. There also might be a Bible study on any given day, a penance service, a community social event, a wedding, a funeral, or a religious formation class. When we go to any of these things, the priest doesn’t get up and say, “Today we’re going to use Dominus Iesus,” or “Today we’re going to use Pastor Aeternus,” or anything like that. Out of all the parishioners who go to church during any given week, only two or three are likely to have ever read a document from the Magisterium. The rest would have no idea what their priest was talking about.

The purpose of those documents is not to give the local churches something to talk about nor to give them something to figure out how to implement. There are no checkups by the regional bishops asking how the local churches have implemented the latest Vatican documents, and generally when a Vatican document is released nothing changes in the local churches, except if the document asks for it.

That is because the Vatican documents are typically not intended to change what happens in the local churches. They are typically intended to answer theological questions or difficulties, difficulties which most average parishioners don’t even understand. Some magisterial documents are intended to modify Canon Law or add a clause to the Mass. In the case of Dominus Iesus, its purpose is to clarify the Church’s teaching that salvation is offered to all uniquely through the Catholic Church. Among other things, this teaching is reflected in our efforts at reaching out to non-Catholics, and in our efforts at teaching the faith to our people so that they will use the Sacraments frequently and remain Catholic.

The only changes you might expect from this document are in cases where a local church doesn’t do something in those two areas. If a church isn’t actively reaching out to non-Catholics or making efforts to maintain the faith and good works of current Catholics, then something might change. Somebody in that church might read the document and it might stir them up to start an apostolate dedicated to saving people through the Catholic Church. And if someone decides to start such an apostolate, and if they go to their priest to ask for his support, they are unlikely to mention that this document happened to stir them to do it. And even if they did, the priest is unlikely to go to the pulpit to tell the parish that this document is the cause of this new apostolate. It works “in the background.”

I hope that makes sense. Please let me know, and if you have questions I’d be happy to answer. God bless!

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

Oh no, that is not what I meant, and sorry it was not made clearer. I meant the implementation of the document, as in “real exercise of what it says”, not talk about the document or discuss approaches.

To explain why I ask this:

There are several streams in Orthodoxy in respect of how to view the communion of Catholic Churches (24 of “sui juris” churches, right?). Some refuse to acknowledge Catholic churches have any scraments at all. Some view Catholics as simple schismatics that will, one day, by the will and love of the Holy Spirit, return to Othodoxy.

As the Catholic Church (all rites, or, more precisely, all sui juris churches) tend to interpret this stand as “because they refuse to accept that we have valid sacraments, we can in no way administer our sacraments to them”. As I explained, there are villages where we simply do not reach, we are much smaller than Catholics (unless we are talking the few countries where we are actually bigger, such a Greece and Russia). In those villages the terms and conditions foreseen by Dominus Iesus are met: our people have no priest or bishop available there, or quite seldom, and often they are too old or too poor to be able to take two buses to the nearest Orthodox parish. If those people are of the stream that does not believe Catholics (especially Uniates) have invalid sacraments (which we call Holy Mysteries), then the would desire the Eucharist and often would confess their sins. There would be, and you can take my word for it, absolutely no danger of indifferentism.

And yet, the Catholic priest will not help them, citing the grounds “you do not believe our sacraments are valid”. He will not listen if the person in question trie to explain he is very wrong and if he had the gift to see insie that poor person´s soul, he would see it clearly. So, there is zero implementation, zero adherence, to Dominus Iesus in this respect. Dominus Iesus becomes an empty document, a mere political proclamation, that looks good on paper, but that is all.

As I explained in my previous posts, I do believe in the contents of Dominus Iesus even if I am not bound by the document. But, it just so happens I have a heart. If a Catholic of any rite comes to me in time of need, and as I explained this happens severral times a week (like, 2-3 times to be as precise as possible, sometimes once a week, but sometimes also four times), I have a way to not violate my own Holy Canons and yet provide the Christian soul with the Holy Mystery that (s)he so much longs for. Will the person run back to his/her own sui juris CC the next day? Perhaps. That is not on me, that is not up to me. I am a servant of the Holy Spirit, my hands were blessed, one of the main reasons was so that God´s people might participate in His Holy Mysteries.

You would be right to claim not so many Orthodox clergy may takee this approach, but trust me I am not alone at all. I am sad when there is a tool that Orrthodox faithful that are simply out of our reach cannot receive the Eucharist and confess their sins even though there is a document signed by the Pope himself that should serve as an instrument precisely for that. Do you think that the refusal of the sacraments to Orthodox people when the teerms set forth in Dominus Iesus are duly met is what the Holy Spirit wants?

I hope in my heart that it is not. I hope in my heart that He is most merciful. As I say, no danger of diffferentism here. I do mind whether a person is Orthodox or Catholic, but Dominus Iesus is, at least that is how I read into it, about special situations of necesity. And it happens more oftten than many might think.

+Gavrilo

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

A little off the track, but to react to the personal attacks from the member SyroMalankara, despite I do not think my person is in any way relevant to the post. But, I am who I am, and I shall not downplay it or deny it, that would be unworthy.

I care little about whether SyroMalankara or anyone else believes that I am an Orthodox bishop. I know who I am, my flock knows who I am, my brothers in our synod of bishops know who I am. But, as you feel I somehow must prove myself to you and as I have nothing to hide, I remind that I did roll out my Apostolic succession. If you want more details, here they are:

I was made a sub-diakon by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk. I was made a diakon by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk. I was made a presbyter by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk. I was tonsured and accepted into small schema by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk. I was made archimadritte by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk. I was elected int episcopacy by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk, Metrpolitan Nathanail of Venna, Metrpolitan Serafim of Vaslui and Vicar Bishop Nectarie of Copoceana. I was ordained and consecrated into episcopacy by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk, Metrpolitan Nathanail of Venna, Metrpolitan Serafim of Vaslui and Vicar Bishop Nectarie of Copoceana, in St. Georgre Orthodox Monastery in Copoceana (East Romania). I was elevated into archepiscopacy and enthroned by Metrpolitan Zaharia of Melk, Metrpolitan Nathanail of Venna, Metrpolitan Serafim of Vaslui and Vicar Bishop Nectarie of Copoceana, in St. Georgre Orthodox Monastery in Copoceana (East Romania).

I am in full unity with the True Orthodox Church of Greece, the Russian True Orthodox Church, and the Autonomous Orthodox Metropolia of North and South America and the British Isles. This is an Old Calendarist communion similar to The Anglican Communion or The Traditional Anglican Communion. Our communion has over half a million members and if you look at Greece alone and if you know something about Old Calendarist movement, you will know the numbers are all right.

My Apostolic Succession is as follows:

– St. Vladymir Bogojavlensky, the Russian Orthodox Metropolitan of Moscow, who was martyred (murdered) by Bolsheviks, ordained into episcopacy Anthony Khrapovitskij, the Ukrainian Metropolitan of Kiiv.
– Anthony Khrapovitskij ordained into episcopacy Anastassij Gribanovskij, the Moldavian Metrpolitan of Kishinev, who later became the First Hierarch of ROCOR.
– Anastassij Gribanovskij ordained into episcopacy Nathaniel the Metropolitan of Lvov and Leontij (Bartashevich) the Metropolitan of Geneva.
– Nathaniel the Metropolitan of Lvov and Leontij (Bartashevich) the Metropolitan of Geneva ordained into episcopacy Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov), the First-Hierarch of ROCOR.
– Metropolitan Vitaly (Ustinov), the First-Hierarch of ROCOR, ordained into episcopacy Sergii (Kindjakov)
– Sergii (Kindjakov) the Metropolitan of Mansonville ordained into episcopacy the ROCOR Archbishop Victor (Pivovarov) and ROCOR Archbishop Anthony (Orlov)
– Archbishop Victor (Pivovarov) and Archbishop Anthony (Orlov) ordained into episcopacy Damascene (Balabanov) the Metropolitan of Moscow and Ioann (Zinoviev) the Metropolitan of Zaporozhie.
– Damascene (Balabanov) the Metropolitan of Moscow and Ioann (Zinoviev) the Metropolitan of Zaporozhie ordained into episcopacy Serafim (Dorobat) the Metropolitan of Vaslui.
– Serafim (Dorobat) the Metropolitan of Vaslui ordained me into episcopacy. Incidentally, he also ordained into episcopacy the Metrpolitan who ordained me into all previous orders, Zaharia of Melk.

As Old Calendarists have no doubt Old Calendarist bishops have full Apostolic Succession, as all bishops in my lineage were Byzntine bishops and none of them was ordained “solo” (that would be against our Holy Canons), thus each was ordained by AT LEAST two other Byzantine bishops, I am by all standards a canonical Orthodox bishop, andthe Holy Mysterie flowing through my hands are without doubt genuine Holy Mysteries. I have heard about the temr “vagante bishop” before, but you must forgive my opinion that “vagante” cannot ever be used on Old Calendarist movement. We have hundreds of thousands of people, almost a thousand parishes over the world, many hundred clergy.

I myself am bulding my eparchy, so I onl have two small parishes, yes. But I fail to see how that differs from any Orthodox bishop who comes somewhere and start building something up, like my brother bishops in Brazil, in Argentina or in Colombia, to give an example.

Honestly, SyroMalankara, there are many in our movement who would right now claim that while I am a genuine Christian bishop, Syriac Malankarans, Uniate or not, are heretics and have absolutely invalid clergy, i.e. laity playing clergy, as the Holy Spirit does not flow through hands of heretics, and certainly they lost Apostolic Succession the moment they walked out on us (i.e. Byzantine Orthodoxy). Now, I am not one to agree with that, but Catholics may need a reminder, once in a while, that we are not all the same. I, for example, believe a full communion between Eastern Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church is possible. I do pray I live long enough to see that happen.

Whatever you suspect as dishonesty or cunning from me, I assure you that you are looking in the mirror, nothing else.

Be in peace, if you are willing to accept it from me.

+Gavrilo, Archbishop of Prague and of Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia

 

[Vico]

,

As the Catholic Church (all rites, or, more precisely, all sui juris churches) tend to interpret this stand as “because they refuse to accept that we have valid sacraments, we can in no way administer our sacraments to them”…

… the Catholic priest will not help them, citing the grounds “you do not believe our sacraments are valid”. He will not listen if the person in question trie to explain he is very wrong and if he had the gift to see inside that poor person´s soul, he would see it clearly. So, there is zero implementation, zero adherence, to Dominus Iesus in this respect. Dominus Iesus becomes an empty document, a mere political proclamation, that looks good on paper, but that is all.

… I have a way to not violate my own Holy Canons and yet provide the Christian soul with the Holy Mystery that (s)he so much longs for.
…

This is interesting, because it can be read clearly from USCCB (and observed in Catholic churches), that:

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 §4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3).

Note that Orthodox Churches means both Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox (Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Malankara, Syriac).

From the OPENING ADDRESS OF CARDINAL KURT KOCH to the PLENARY ASSEMBLY OF THE PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTING CHRISTIAN UNITY 15-19 November 2010, where he addresses the question of Eucharistic communion:

This unresolved issue returned decisively to the centre of the Church’s attention with the declaration on the unicity and universality of salvation of Jesus Christ and the Church, “ Dominus Iesus ”, published in 2000 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. 27 This document was intended to counter a theology that relativises religions, and a wateringdown of Christology, 28

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/information_service/pdf/information_service_135_en.pdf

 

[Bishop_Gavrilo]

This is interesting, because it can be read clearly from USCCB (and observed in Catholic churches), that:

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 §4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3).

You do know that individual diocesan bishops (RCC and sui juris CC) have lists of their own (unofficial yet existing, a fact, take it from someone who has seen several of them, and if you ask a few general vicars, one of them willl confirm it for you sooner or later, even if unhappily) that list “points” that, if not fully met on official level, will result in “we cannot allow the clergy in our diocese to offer sacraments to Orthodox pepole”, right?

And there is no recourse. Red tape all over, leading to an option to completely circumvene Dominus Iesus. And I think, with silent consent of the Congregation.

+Gavrilo

 

[Vico]

Vico;13436770:

This is interesting, because it can be read clearly from USCCB (and observed in Catholic churches), that:

Because Catholics believe that the celebration of the Eucharist is a sign of the reality of the oneness of faith, life, and worship, members of those churches with whom we are not yet fully united are ordinarily not admitted to Holy Communion. Eucharistic sharing in exceptional circumstances by other Christians requires permission according to the directives of the diocesan bishop and the provisions of canon law (canon 844 §4). Members of the Orthodox Churches, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Polish National Catholic Church are urged to respect the discipline of their own Churches. According to Roman Catholic discipline, the Code of Canon Law does not object to the reception of Communion by Christians of these Churches (canon 844 §3)

.

You do know that individual diocesan bishops (RCC and sui juris CC) have lists of their own (unofficial yet existing, a fact, take it from someone who has seen several of them, and if you ask a few general vicars, one of them willl confirm it for you sooner or later, even if unhappily) that list “points” that, if not fully met on official level, will result in “we cannot allow the clergy in our diocese to offer sacraments to Orthodox pepole”, right?

And there is no recourse. Red tape all over, leading to an option to completely circumvene Dominus Iesus. And I think, with silent consent of the Congregation.

+Gavrilo

Your statement is a little difficult for me to understand. Maybe you can clarify it? I think you mean to identify, in your statement, specific people that do not have acceptable sacramental beliefs, but nevertheless you named as Orthodox, but not Orthodox people in general:

“points” that, if not fully met on official level, will result in “we cannot allow the clergy in our diocese to offer sacraments to Orthodox people”,

If so, the bishops are correct in that they have an obligation to avoid any scandal of sacrilege. After, all, it is not necessary for Holy people to receive the Holy Mystery of Communion every time. It may be a matter of conscience for the individual, but the clergy also have requirements to meet.

 

[dmar198]

I am sad when there is a tool that Orrthodox faithful that are simply out of our reach cannot receive the Eucharist and confess their sins even though there is a document signed by the Pope himself that should serve as an instrument precisely for that. Do you think that the refusal of the sacraments to Orthodox people when the teerms set forth in Dominus Iesus are duly met is what the Holy Spirit wants?

I think I see where you are coming from now. And take heart: there is recourse. It sounds like you have experienced at least stories of Catholic priests who will not let Orthodox faithful receive the Sacraments under the conditions specified by Dominus Iesus. If that is what it happening, here are some steps you may be able to take:

First, approach the Catholic priest who isn’t following Dominus Iesus with this document in hand. (You may have already done this, but it is important to talk to people directly before going above their heads.) Show him the relevant passages, show him that it comes from the Magisterium, and if he needs it, let him keep a copy of the document. Explain that it deeply troubles you that Orthodox faithful are being denied the Sacraments in those circumstances where the Catholic Church has said they may receive them.

Second, if the priests in question still refuse to follow the document, go to their bishop. Take the document along and tell the bishop that you have spoken to the priest and he refuses to let the Orthodox faithful receive the Sacraments under the conditions specified by Dominus Iesus. Explain that it deeply troubles you because, for one thing, the Orthodox faithful often have no other way to receive the Sacraments. Show him the document and the relevant passages and ask him to talk to his priest on your behalf.

That ought to solve your problem. The bishop has a responsibility to make sure his priests are doing what the Church tells them. But if he does not, on the off-chance that he is a disobedient bishop, which I doubt, but if time goes by and nothing changes, your next recourse is to speak to the Apostolic Nuncio. The Apostolic Nuncio is appointed by the pope and he has authority to implement Vatican decrees in a given area if the bishops are not doing it. It looks like the nuncio in your area would be the nuncio to the Czech Republic, whose name is Giuseppe Leanza. His contact info can be found here: embassypages.com/missions/embassy15944/

I repeat that you ought to confer directly with the individual priests before you go to the bishop, and you ought to confer directly with the bishop before you go to the Nuncio. That is the recourse you have to see that the Church’s documents are implemented in your area. I hope that helps. God bless!