Donald Trump Presidential Campaign Thread

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You asked about priorities and I think it is best to point Catholics to a guide that will help them form these priorities.
And time and logical thinking which as we see doesn’y favor the democrats. A lack of or prudence as we see.
Your point of view that Democrats have poorly formed consciences is based on your personal interpretation of Church teachings and I think that the lurkers and newcomers can read your posts and determine how much weight to give your personal interpretation.
Actually its confirmed by the inabililty of the democrats to provide a rational conversation. The democratic party is opposed to Catholic teaching to which you can’t dispute.🤷

Abortion-Little sister of the poor. And the democrats response or liberalism is?
 
They certainly help poor people more than the policies of the Republican Party which don’t help poor people at all.
The Democrat party controls most all of the inner cities which are the heart of poverty.

There is nothing to help poor people in the Democrat party.
 
Not much of a Trump fan but elections are always crazy here,. I remember violent protesters at rhe dem convention in 76 supporters of McGovern who was the Sanders version of a candidate then. They were irritated that Humphrey was the candidate. Many of these protestors are paid to protest anything the left doesn’t like. They’re trying very hard to squash free speech. And the more thugs out there, angry people will vote for Trump.

Guess your U.K. Elections are much more peaceful.

of
 
I never was off track sorry about your liberal confusion. The point IS the right to life and religious liberty thus a “formed conscience”? Your point is what, a deflection to Trump? :rolleyes:
 
And time and logical thinking which as we see doesn’y favor the democrats. A lack of or prudence as we see.
I’m not sure what your point here is.
Actually its confirmed by the inabililty of the democrats to provide a rational conversation. The democratic party is opposed to Catholic teaching to which you can’t dispute.🤷
Abortion-Little sister of the poor. And the democrats response or liberalism is?
Abortion is a very serious issue given great weight by Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. So are issues like racism, targeting noncombatants and torture. Forming Consciences is a good way for Catholics to learn how to apply their faith in the public forum.
 
Abortion is a very serious issue given great weight by Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. .
Amen and so is persecution of the Church by democrats-little sisters of the poor-formed conscience, socialized meds and suppression of conscience with forced abortion ? And you say WHAT??? This should be good. :rolleyes: Deflection of course?

I’m sorry in weeks of conversation you have been unable to address this? Of course we are talking … “formed conscience” 👍 Show us yours!!!
 
Gods word in relation has no such boundary, I’m sorry its a hard lesson the liberals refuse to realize as I have in the past. We are responsible for the weakest of the innocent and regardless how we rationalize or feel about it. And suppression on this concept is manifest with the Little Sisters.

There’s nothing to discuss imho but this democrat and republican view in regards to Christs Church. And simply put the democrats are a lacking position? You tell me, this should be good.
 
And yet, Catholics overwhelmingly keep electing Democrats. This year, that tendency will be especially important.
Following Christ and Catholic teaching is not about popularity or who has the most followers.
 
Nonsense I am talking Catholic teaching. Sorry you see this favoring a party I don’t have that bias.
 
(name removed by moderator), in fact in light of the conversation which you obviously are lacking in with regards to the conversation I think its fair you excuse your bias opinion from the conversation. I have yet to see an honest comparison of these parties in relation to Gods Kingdom and the Catholic Church by you? And I could find your honest eval where?
 
I just think that while I respect your thinking and Vs too, at this point I am just skeptical about anyone from Europe as they “could” be wrong. Its nothing personal mind you. 😃
 
Nonsense I am talking Catholic teaching. Sorry you see this favoring a party I don’t have that bias.
In reading the document, Forming Consciouses for Faithful Citizenship, I noticed the following:

Paragraph 36 says that when all candidates (note, candidates, not parties) support an intrinsic evil (as they all do support abortion to some degree), than the voter may take the extraordinary step of not voting for anyone or voting for who the voter considers to be the lesser of two evils.

Paragraph 34 puts treatment of workers and the poor, along with racism right next to abortion, euthanasia, and sanctity of marriage.

Paragraphs 64 -68 discuss how we must continue the care for each beyond abortion and into all of a person’s life (including health care for all).

Basically, what I get is that ALL of a candidates policies must be considered. Also that there are several intrinsic evils that are involved, not just abortion. And there is no perfect candidate.

The document is very clear that abortion is not the only issue that a Catholic needs to consider. To suggest otherwise is not a true reflection of the document or of the teachings of the USCCB.
 
In reading the document, Forming Consciouses for Faithful Citizenship, I noticed the following:

Paragraph 36 says that when all candidates (note, candidates, not parties) support an intrinsic evil (as they all do support abortion to some degree), than the voter may take the extraordinary step of not voting for anyone or voting for who the voter considers to be the lesser of two evils.

Paragraph 34 puts treatment of workers and the poor, along with racism right next to abortion, euthanasia, and sanctity of marriage.

Paragraphs 64 -68 discuss how we must continue the care for each beyond abortion and into all of a person’s life (including health care for all).

Basically, what I get is that ALL of a candidates policies must be considered. Also that there are several intrinsic evils that are involved, not just abortion. And there is no perfect candidate.

The document is very clear that abortion is not the only issue that a Catholic needs to consider. To suggest otherwise is not a true reflection of the document or of the teachings of the USCCB.
Here we go again Rather than depend on your personal interpretation of this document is let’s turn to the Magestriun:
The Church teaches that abortion or euthanasia is a grave sin. The Encyclical Letter Evangelium vitae, with reference to judicial decisions or civil laws that authorize or promote abortion or euthanasia, states that there is a “grave and clear obligation to oppose them by conscientious objection. …] In the case of an intrinsically unjust law, such as a law permitting abortion or euthanasia, it is therefore never licit to obey it, or to 'take part in a propaganda campaign in favour of such a law or vote for it’” (no. 73). Christians have a “grave obligation of conscience not to cooperate formally in practices which, even if permitted by civil legislation, are contrary to God’s law. Indeed, from the moral standpoint, it is never licit to cooperate formally in evil. …] This cooperation can never be justified either by invoking respect for the freedom of others or by appealing to the fact that civil law permits it or requires it” (no. 74).

Pope Benedict XVI

“No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion,”

“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone”

Cardinal Burke

In considering “the sum total of social conditions,” there is, however, a certain order of priority, which must be followed. Conditions upon which other conditions depend must receive our first consideration. The first consideration must be given to the protection of human life itself, without which it makes no sense to consider other social conditions. “The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 2273).

Cardinal Burke

]Note that “proportionate reasons’] does not mean simply weighing a wide range of issues against abortion and euthanasia and concluding that they cumulatively outweigh the evil of taking an innocent life. Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions

Bishop Joseph A. Galante

What are “proportionate reasons”? To consider that question, we must first repeat the teaching of the church: The direct killing of innocent human beings at any stage of development, including the embryonic and fetal, is homicidal, gravely sinful and always profoundly wrong . . . .

What evil could be so grave and widespread as to constitute a “proportionate reason” to support candidates who would preserve and protect the abortion license and even extend it to publicly funded embryo-killing in our nation’s labs?

Certainly policies on welfare, national security, the war in Iraq, Social Security or taxes, taken singly or in any combination, do not provide a proportionate reason to vote for a pro-abortion candidate

Archbishop John J. Myers

What is a proportionate reason to justify favoring the taking of an innocent, defenseless human life? That’s the question that has to be answered in your conscience. What is the proportionate reason? . . . It is difficult to imagine what that proportionate reason would be

Cardinal Burke*
 
Amen and so is persecution of the Church by democrats-little sisters of the poor-formed conscience, socialized meds and suppression of conscience with forced abortion ? And you say WHAT??? This should be good. :rolleyes: Deflection of course?

I’m sorry in weeks of conversation you have been unable to address this? Of course we are talking … “formed conscience” 👍 Show us yours!!!
Again, it is hard for me to parse out exactly what your point is. I trust that Catholics can read Forming Consciences and with their well-formed consciences, they can determine who to vote for.

I personally am less concerned with socialized medicine as you are because I neither believe Obamacare is socialized medicine nor do I believe socialized medicine is contrary to Church teaching.

I’m curious to why you are attacking the Little Sisters of the Poor and saying they have poorly formed consciences. That is very uncharitable.
 
Bob, I am confused. Isn’t this document the one we are supposed to read? Did the bishops not say what I said? Or are you saying this is an invalid document and I should not have read it?
 
In reading the document, Forming Consciouses for Faithful Citizenship, I noticed the following:

Paragraph 36 says that when all candidates (note, candidates, not parties) support an intrinsic evil (as they all do support abortion to some degree), than the voter may take the extraordinary step of not voting for anyone or voting for who the voter considers to be the lesser of two evils.

Paragraph 34 puts treatment of workers and the poor, along with racism right next to abortion, euthanasia, and sanctity of marriage.

Paragraphs 64 -68 discuss how we must continue the care for each beyond abortion and into all of a person’s life (including health care for all).

Basically, what I get is that ALL of a candidates policies must be considered. Also that there are several intrinsic evils that are involved, not just abortion. And there is no perfect candidate.

The document is very clear that abortion is not the only issue that a Catholic needs to consider. To suggest otherwise is not a true reflection of the document or of the teachings of the USCCB.
I think it’s important that every Catholic read the document in their entirety and make their own determination on what it means. It is abundantly clear that different people interpret the document different ways (for example, some read ‘may’ as ‘must’ and then present their views as rigid Church teaching). We should recognize these as personal interpretations and not as Church teaching and take care to not present them as such.
 
Again, it is hard for me to parse out exactly what your point is
I hear you, my point is quite simple a formed conscience cannot start with murder of Gods most innocent and further to prove my point is "Little Sisters of the poor? Its no secret you have no rational response as there is none, 🤷
 
Bob, I am confused. Isn’t this document the one we are supposed to read? Did the bishops not say what I said? Or are you saying this is an invalid document and I should not have read it?
I am pointing out your interpretation of the document is not correct and you will not find a quote by a single member of the magisterium that agrees with it.As my quotes clearly show the other issues you cited form FC come into play only when the candidates position on abortion and euthanasia are the same Archbishop Chaput commented on this back in 2098:

And here’s the irony. None of the Catholic arguments advanced in favor of Senator Obama are new. They’ve been around, in one form or another, for more than 25 years. All of them seek to ‘‘get beyond’’ abortion, or economically reduce the number of abortions, or create a better society where abortion won’t be necessary. All of them involve a misuse of the seamless garment imagery in Catholic social teaching. And all of them, in practice, seek to contextualize, demote and then counterbalance the evil of abortion with other important but less foundational social issues.This is a great sadness. As Chicago’s Cardinal Francis George said recently, too many Americans have ''no recognition of the fact that children continue to be killed [by abortion], and we live therefore, in a country drenched in blood. This can’t be something you start playing off pragmatically against other issues.’’
 
I hear you, my point is quite simple a formed conscience cannot start with murder of Gods most innocent and further to prove my point is "Little Sisters of the poor? Its no secret you have no rational response as there is none, 🤷
So, when you said “little sisters of the poor-formed conscience” you weren’t referring to the Little Sisters?

I’m sorry, but it might help if you made some effort to punctuate better. I really can’t tell what point you are trying to make.
 
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