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valient_Lucy
Guest
Not to mention fulfilling your obligation to attend Sunday Mass. If I was in Vietnam on vacation, and could only attend Mass in Vietnamese, I don’t see what could possibly be wrong or undesirable about that.
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MrS
Guest
Well, you were wrong in your perception of the TLM, and you are wrong here too.
Snakes, for the most part, taste a bit like chicken if not overcooked(boiled after skinned).
Back in the 60’s I experienced the TLM regularly… it left a very special “taste” that I never forgot, even after 25 years out of the Church. It “disappeared” during those years, and I was a bit shocked as to why. Thankfully, the taste is returning, praise God.
Snakes in VietNam were a necessity, and they too had a special “taste”. However, I can live without it.
But your association of the two is actually quite funny. So, yes, I prefer the solid taste of the TLM over the variety of NO Masses. The NO is still nurishing when “cooked” correctly. However, that is seldom the reality.\
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Preference has to include rejecting and avoiding at all costs? The OP has indicated this is what his plans are, to avoid the OF at all costs including making use of masses offered by those in schism just because of the missal used (and possibly not even the one specified by B16 in the MP).Why do you keep prodding him? What are you trying to prove? He’s already said he prefers the TLM over the NO, as many do here and vise versa. Why is that such a problem? Are you trying to ‘expose’ him as the ‘radical schismatic’ that he is? /sarcasm off
If one can’t get what they prefer shouldn’t a good Catholic, in line with the HMC, just suck it up and do without what they prefer once in a while?
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
He has posted about a 2nd possible chance due to ‘schedule’ problems again.
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Richie_Nelson
Guest
Sounds like an excuse to prolong the debate, which is pretty much going nowhere, like most of the EF-OF threads
thanks, Richie
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
And the only reason for the change was folks got stressed over what they THOUGHT the s/n meant -so the change was out of consideration of others.
:yawn:
:yawn:
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jmcrae
Guest
I like the TLM, too, but not at the expense of Jesus and His Church. I attend the FSSP Mass whenever I can, but most of the time I go to the ordinary Mass, because that is what is convenient for me.
But with regard to the SSPX, what good is the outward form of the TLM, if Jesus isn’t there? It can be all lovely and gorgeous, but Jesus is in His Church; He is not with the schismatics. I would rather come to Jesus in the worst done valid, licit children’s Mass in the world than go to a gorgeous TLM that rejects Jesus from attending by being out of communion with Jesus’ Church.
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JReducation
Guest
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JReducation
Guest
You’re walking on thin ice here. I’m not a member of SSPX, must well educated in mystical theology and liturgy. You may want to rephrase this.
The sacraments celebrated by the priests of SSPX are valid, though ilicit. Jesus is very much there. Also the fact that a group is schismatic does not take away their apostolic succession. Look at the Orthodox. The Catholic Church reconginzes the validity of their sacraments and their apostolic succession. They are schismatic, but they are united to the Catholic Church in Sacris.
In Parr 10 of Et Unum Sint the Catholic Church clearly states that through her power (the Catholic Church) those who are not united to the Catholic Church are used as a means of salvation, even though they may be imperfect. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that it is like an umbrella whose grace protects not only those within the Catholic Church but the world.
**“It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.[12] **
To the extent that these elements are found in other Christian Communities, the one Church of Christ is effectively present in them. For this reason the Second Vatican Council speaks of a certain, though imperfect communion. The Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium stresses that the Catholic Church “recognizes that in many ways she is linked”[14] with these Communities by a true union in the Holy Spirit.
**The separated brethren also carry out many of the sacred actions of the Christian religion. Undoubtedly, in many ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community, these actions can truly engender a life of grace, and can be rightly described as capable of providing access to the community of salvation".[18] **
The reason for not belonging to the SSPX is because they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, not becasue Christ is not found there. There is a difference which the Church recognizes. The same applies to other religious groups.
If one wishes full communion with the fullness of truth, one is Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Anything else is an imperfect union and while there is truth, it is not the fulnness of truth. It’s only part of the truth.
JR
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CradleCath
Guest
CradleCath;3452790:
JR
ABSOLUTELY!! (& I’ve always referred to the abuse crisis as a scandal of Pederasty.)
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jedi
Guest
JR, i support you. way to go.
Pope Benedict please give green light, please give full communion to the SSPX, i love to attend TLM. i attended Good Friday N.O mass.
1 question, the priest didn’t read the new text about jewish people. i thought this year we’ll use the new text(convertion of the jew)…order by the pope… but i didn’t hear that. same as last year, nothing has been change… any idea about that???
for me SSPX is very important to the catholic church. they never walk away about from the church. the question is when are we going to call them back home… Vatican is just like a father, and SSPX is like a son. i hope the father will ask the son and his grandson to come back home…
am i right???.. happy easter…
Pope Benedict please give green light, please give full communion to the SSPX, i love to attend TLM. i attended Good Friday N.O mass.
1 question, the priest didn’t read the new text about jewish people. i thought this year we’ll use the new text(convertion of the jew)…order by the pope… but i didn’t hear that. same as last year, nothing has been change… any idea about that???
for me SSPX is very important to the catholic church. they never walk away about from the church. the question is when are we going to call them back home… Vatican is just like a father, and SSPX is like a son. i hope the father will ask the son and his grandson to come back home…
am i right???.. happy easter…
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JReducation
Guest
JReducation;3452808:
I am aware that pderasty exists. We studied it in college. But I was not a law major. I was wondering if that’s the term that American law uses. I have always heard peodophilia. Do you know?ABSOLUTELY!! (& I’ve always referred to the abuse crisis as a scandal of Pederasty.
Jr
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JReducation
Guest
Thanks for your support.JR, i support you. way to go.
Pope Benedict please give green light, please give full communion to the SSPX, i love to attend TLM. i attended Good Friday N.O mass.
1 question, the priest didn’t read the new text about jewish people. i thought this year we’ll use the new text(convertion of the jew)…order by the pope… but i didn’t hear that. same as last year, nothing has been change… any idea about that???
for me SSPX is very important to the catholic church. they never walk away about from the church. the question is when are we going to call them back home… Vatican is just like a father, and SSPX is like a son. i hope the father will ask the son and his grandson to come back home…
am i right???.. happy easter…
The reason why the new text on the Jews is not being used is because the Sacramentary has to be published with the revision. Until parishes have the new sacramentary, they will use the current one. It may take a while to publish it. All of our rites and rituals are in the Sacramentary. They have to be published and approved by the appropriate congregations.
I heard, don’t take this to the bank, one of our Friars said that it would not be changed in the Franciscan Sacramentary, because the Superior General has not authorized it. I do know this, that those religious orders that have their own sacramentary and their own liturgical rules are often exempt from changes that are not essential to the liturgy. The Holy See usually makes it very clear what changes are essential and must be put in place by the universal church. When they don’t say this, then religious orders with solemn vows, there are only four rules with solemn vows may continue to use their sacramentary as approved by their major religious superior and the Sacred Congregation on Liturgy. The other rules have simple vows. Religious who make simple vows don’t have a sacramentary of their own. They use whatever is in use by the universal Church.
Just last night I was at a Holy Thursay mass at our parish. Our Brothers have their own sacramentary that allows the Eucharistic prayer to be said in multiple languages. This was approved by the Sacred Congregation for the Liturgy and the Holy Father, after it was presented by the Superior Geneal several years ago. They may split the parts of the Eucharistic prayer into different languages, as long as the consecration itself is said in one language. Parts of the Eucharistic prayer were in Spanish, English, Creole and Latin.
The answer to your question, we have to wait for the Sacramentaries to come out with any further changes that His Holiness wishes to see in it.
As to SSPX, the Vatican is trying to bring them back by offering the EF and making the NO more available in Latin.
Their other big concern (SSPX) is ecumenism. The Holy Father has already said that there will be no change in the Ecumenical Directory. I’m not sure what they’re going to do about this issue. One of the things that has some SSPX upset is the lifting of the excommunication and the anathemas of the Orthodox churches.
JR
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
Perhaps the SSPX should learn they can’t have everything their own way.Their other big concern (SSPX) is ecumenism. The Holy Father has already said that there will be no change in the Ecumenical Directory. I’m not sure what they’re going to do about this issue. One of the things that has some SSPX upset is the lifting of the excommunication and the anathemas of the Orthodox churches.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
I believe this is a lesson that we all have to learn. Our Holy Father St. Francis called this Holy Poverty. We must become like Christ on the cross and allow others to strip us of everything for love of God. Love of God holds nothing back.
This is the most sublime love. Our Holy Father contemplated Christ in the garden and then on the cross. He observed that Christ preferred to have this cup passed over, but it was the Father’s will, not his. Francis observed that Christ taught us to embrace even death. True poverty, is the poverty of the cross, when one is willing to give up everything to follow the will of the Beloved Father in Heaven.
If it is the will of the Beloved Father in Heaven that we walk down the journey of Ecumenism as the last five popes have taught. We are to be like Francis and emmulate Christ’s embrace of the cup that is difficult to swallow, but must be followed first for love of the Father and secondly for love of the Church through whom the Father speaks.
JR
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piouswoman
Guest
From John 8:7I am so deeply saddened by the behavior of the professing Catholics on this site, here during this most Holy of weeks and here on Holy Thursday, when our Lord’s sufferings began.
You claim to be pious and faithful and true the the real Catholic faith and then fail to reflect on the hatred that abides in your hearts for each other and for all who don’t share in your views and opinions on what it means to be and worship as a Catholic. You casually fling around harsh judgments and accusations, causing wounds, all in the name of a pure religion, this is not from our Lord’s heart at all. Hatred does not come from our Lord. Pride and arrogance are not found in Him nor do they come from the Holy Spirit.
Our Lord’s Passion on this night includes all these hateful thoughts and words, it was for them that he suffered. I hope that you can find it in yourselves to pause and repent of such sorrowful actions, before you speak more of these in the name of our Lord. Do you not understand how much you grieve his Sacred Heart unmercifully, wounding Him and each other.
I will pray for all of you here, and ask the Blessed Virgin’s intercession, that you might not sin further against our precious Savior, on this Holy night of his sufferings.
Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Don’t forget that we are the CHURCH MILITANT and it is our DUTY to fight for the TRUTHS OF OUR FAITH. That is what traditional Catholics do.
And Our Lord said:
Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
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CradleCath
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JReducation
Guest
Pious
You’re appeal to scripture here and in several other posts is very similar to that of the Protestants. I don’t know if you want to come across that way. But you are coming across as one who puts scripture over the Chruch and her authority. You may not intend to do this and if so, you should know that this is the way is sounds.
The other day I posted something from St. Francis and you responded from scripture. The impression I got was that you were disregarding that this great saint knew the scriptures better than you and me. You quoted scripture instead of addressing what he taugh to Church based on scripture.
What Jeanette is saying also has scriptural basis.
As to the Church militant, there is no official Church definition that equates Church militant with fighting or militancy. The term comes from an ancient explanation of the Mystical Body: The Chiurch Triumphant are those who are already in Heaven and The Church Militant are those who are still struggling to get to Heaven, not fighting each other.
JR
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JReducation
Guest
I’m watching the Holy Father’s Good Friday Service and am very excited, because the official preacher to the Pope is a Brother from the same Brothers who run my parish.
He is wearing is preaching the Good Friday sermon, but is wearing the Brothers’ habit and no priestly vestments, as directed by his Order.
He is explaining the importance of good exegesis in understanding the symbols of the Gospel on the passion. I thought that what he said about Chris’ts tunic applies here.
He explained that the tunic was most likely not seamless, as this was not the Jewish tradition, but that the seamless tunic is John’s symbol for the seamless Church which must always preserve her unity.
He speaking about the importance of bringing unity to the Church. He is also preaching to the Pope on how God has poured out the Holy Spirit on all Christian denominations and calls the Pope to bring all of us to unity. He’s explaining that schisms are part of our history, but that the Holy Spirit works through dialogue and comprimise when the essentials of the Church are not in play.
The part that I have heard so far is on the importance of Ecumenism and the cross and how it is Peter’s job to make it happen.
It is beautiful to observe the Pope’s humility as he is preach to by this simple Brother in his simple Capuchin habit.
I’m very excited to see a Capuchin selected as the official preacher and confessor to the Pope.
It is important that he is stressing how we must be hasty in charity, but not hasty in communion, because that takes time and dialogue. Notice that he says dialogue and love. We need this.
JR
He is wearing is preaching the Good Friday sermon, but is wearing the Brothers’ habit and no priestly vestments, as directed by his Order.
He is explaining the importance of good exegesis in understanding the symbols of the Gospel on the passion. I thought that what he said about Chris’ts tunic applies here.
He explained that the tunic was most likely not seamless, as this was not the Jewish tradition, but that the seamless tunic is John’s symbol for the seamless Church which must always preserve her unity.
He speaking about the importance of bringing unity to the Church. He is also preaching to the Pope on how God has poured out the Holy Spirit on all Christian denominations and calls the Pope to bring all of us to unity. He’s explaining that schisms are part of our history, but that the Holy Spirit works through dialogue and comprimise when the essentials of the Church are not in play.
The part that I have heard so far is on the importance of Ecumenism and the cross and how it is Peter’s job to make it happen.
It is beautiful to observe the Pope’s humility as he is preach to by this simple Brother in his simple Capuchin habit.
I’m very excited to see a Capuchin selected as the official preacher and confessor to the Pope.
It is important that he is stressing how we must be hasty in charity, but not hasty in communion, because that takes time and dialogue. Notice that he says dialogue and love. We need this.
JR
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dyspepsic
Guest
We have to be very careful here. Because of their excommunication these folks are outside the Mystical Body of Christ. (Mystici Corporis - Pius XII)The reason for not belonging to the SSPX is because they are not in full communion with the Catholic Church, not becasue Christ is not found there. There is a difference which the Church recognizes. The same applies to other religious groups.
If one wishes full communion with the fullness of truth, one is Catholic in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Anything else is an imperfect union and while there is truth, it is not the fulnness of truth. It’s only part of the truth.
JR
Christ is ‘there’ in the Eucharist because of the way the sacraments work - ex opere operato - by the very proper use of the matter and form. This could also be argued that Luther’s Mass was valid. Excommunicated/heretic/schimatic/apostate ministers can validly, but illicitly exercise their Orders for the Eucharist, Penance, Confirmation (bishops), Extreme Unction, Orders (bishops).
Being outside the Church makes their salvation questionable. Let’s not be easy on them, more so than our theology allows.
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