Don't Hate Me. I Am Going To A SSPX This Sunday

[JReducation]

Agreed. The abuse scandal in the Church is not a pedophaelia issue as the gay agenda would like us to believe. It is a homosexual issue.

This attitude is very troubling. It makes no difference what the age of the victims were, they are still young and impressionable and were taken advantage of. You cannot deny that a priest who seduces a teenager is abusing his position of authority. It matters not whether the youth “consented.” A child of that age is easily confused, and then if you factor in normal issues of insecurity and need for acceptance they are easy prey. It is always wrong to downplay the crime simply because a victim may have been older or “consenting.” Please reconsider your thinking about this.

I have never defended the immorality of the behaviour. I maintain that the older adolscent is not as innocent as lawyers want to make him or her out to be.

If you want a breakdown, I can give you a breakdown of what the pries violated, besides civil law, obviously.

1. First and most importantly, he violated his vow of celibacy.
2. Second, he committed a mortal sin against justice. Taking advantage of someone is a serious sin of injustice.
3. Third, he committed a serious sin against charity. Violating someone’s trust in this manner is a grave sin against charity.
4. Fourth, he caused scandal. This speaks for itself.

I do not wish to underestimate the gravity of the action. I am presenting how the press and lawyers have exploited it and how we have to be careful not to fall under their spell.

JR

 

[JReducation]

If the SSPX priest does not have faculties granted to him by the Bishop (and no SSPX priest does) you will not fullfill your Sunday obligations since there are licit Masses available. You would be in mortal sin. It would be like attending an Orthodox Mass when you could attend a Catholic Mass. The Orthodox Mass is valid but is not licit since they do not have faculties granted by the bishiop. If the Church is not listed on the diocese website then it probably would not be OK to attend.

Priests do not need faculties to celebrate mass. They need faculties to preach and hear confessions.

It is true that the SSPX and the Orthodox masses are not comparable. The Orthodox are no longer excommunicated. The SSPX is. The Orthodox celebration of the Eucharist is not ilicit according the the Catholic Church. Pope John XXIII and Paul VI lifted the excommunications and John Paul II lifted the anathemas. The Church says that with authority, a Catholic can attend and receive the Eucharist at an Orthodox mass. It does not say the same for the SSPX.

The mass of the SSPX is valid, but ilicit, as you have clearly pointed out. As to whether the person would commit a mortal sin, is another question. For there to be a mortal sin, the matter has to be grave, the person must know the matter is grave and the person must give full consent to their action. This is a tough judgment call, better left to the individual’s confessor or spiritual director.

It is sufficient to know that Catholics may not receive communion at an SSPX mass. They may only receive communion at an Orthodox mass with permission from a person in authority.

JR

 

[JReducation]

It is also well to recall the words of Our Lord:

42 And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43 And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire: 44 Where there worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. 45 And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished. 47 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, than having two eyes to be cast into the hell of fire: 48 Where the worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

drb.scripturetext.com/mark/9.htm

I believe that St. Francis knew this scripture passage very well, as no one has ever immitated the Gospel as closely as he. He also understood the concept of the Sacraments, especially Holy Orders and Penance.

Once a person, even a sinful priest, is absolved from his sin, it is over and past, as far as God and the Church are concerned. If there is a legal matter with civil authorities, that’s a separate issue. As far as Francis was concerned, the absolution granted by the confessor of a sinful priest was the most important thing to him. The other was for civil authorities to deal with. He lived in an age where the clergy commited many sins and civil crimes. He was not new to this.

However, he also recognized Christ’s power to forgive. He recognized his obligation to be a mirror of Christ to all men, even sinful men.

He knew that without priests, even sinful ones, there would be no
Eucharist, because the priesthood is born from the Eucharist and the Eucharist depends on having a priest to consecrate it. The two sacraments go hand-in-hand.

Francis has a unique ability to combine scripture with good theology, this is why the Churh named him The Mirror of Perfection at his canonization. I would be very careful to do battle with St. Francis as the Church considers him one of the most perfect Christians that has ever lived.

Last week, Pope Benedict had an audience with a group of Marian Youth and he told them that if they wanted to be saints they should follow the path of St. Francis and St. Benedict. Even popes do not question this holy man’s rule or teachings. In fact, what I quoted is from his rule, which is one of only four religious rules in the Catholic Church that have a Papal Bull attached.

This means that the Church finds no fault in them and has decreed that they cannot be changed, except by another pope.

If he says this about priests and the pope of the time put his personal seal on it and no other pope has revoked that seal, it probably means that the popes during the last 800 years believe that what he says has validity and is good for all Catholics. They do have the power to revoke the Bull of Pope Honorius in 1223.

JR

 

[JReducation]

I am so deeply saddened by the behavior of the professing Catholics on this site, here during this most Holy of weeks and here on Holy Thursday, when our Lord’s sufferings began.

You claim to be pious and faithful and true the the real Catholic faith and then fail to reflect on the hatred that abides in your hearts for each other and for all who don’t share in your views and opinions on what it means to be and worship as a Catholic. You casually fling around harsh judgments and accusations, causing wounds, all in the name of a pure religion, this is not from our Lord’s heart at all. Hatred does not come from our Lord. Pride and arrogance are not found in Him nor do they come from the Holy Spirit.

Our Lord’s Passion on this night includes all these hateful thoughts and words, it was for them that he suffered. I hope that you can find it in yourselves to pause and repent of such sorrowful actions, before you speak more of these in the name of our Lord. Do you not understand how much you grieve his Sacred Heart unmercifully, wounding Him and each other.

I will pray for all of you here, and ask the Blessed Virgin’s intercession, that you might not sin further against our precious Savior, on this Holy night of his sufferings.

Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.

I’m going to ditto what Jeanette is saying and repeat myself. I believe that we should take example from our Holy Father St. Francis. On this day he spent his time in prayer and contemplating the poverty and suffering of Christ on the cross.

Instead of debating religion or liturgy, he spent his evening with his brothers and for those few who were priests he always made it a point on this night to write or preach something beautiful about the gift of the Eucharist and the priesthood.

We should take example of his humility on a night like tonight. Even though he was the Father of the family, he also remembered that he was a lay man and that the those Brothers who were priests had two vocations. First, they were called to be Brothers and live under his rule and under solemn vows, which have a deeper commitment than the simple vows made by other religious. Second, the Brother priests were called to a special function within the Church and were a gift to the Church. He prayed for them that he would be able to guide them and teach the Brother priests to be good Brothers and good priest. But he also spent time among the secular laity, those who are not religious, reminding them of the great gift that God has given the Church on Holy Thursday by giving us two sacraments, Holy Orders and the Eucharist.

We should be pleasing to Christ by speaking of the Holy Eucharist and Holy Orders and the great gift that they are to us.

Maybe we should remember the words of Pope John Paul II several years ago on this night. “We must recall and celebrate that when Christ gave us the Eucharist he also gave us the priesthood, becaue the priesthood flows from the Eucharist and tonight is the night that we remember and celebrate these precious gifts and we share our faith in Christ by recalling them and by celebrating, with joy, the fact that we have them.”

We should stop the insults and the battles over TLM or NO and focus on the great gift that we have receive and share our love and appreciation for both.

I think that Jeanette has the right of it. We offend the Sacred Heart which has room for all and wants all to love as he loves.

JR

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

Why do you reject the OF?

I have a strong preference for the TLM. It’s natural for me. I am new to it but I feel at home with the TLM.

I have been on this forum a few weeks and I am stunned by the venom spewed towards those of us who prefer the TLM. I am beginning to emphatically empathize with those who have fought this battle longer than I. Piouswoman brought up a good point when she asked why you are against a Mass celebrated by hundreds of saints and popes before us. Why aren’t you picking on these saints and popes? Do you have a beef with them too?

 

[dyspepsic]

I have a strong preference for the TLM. It’s natural for me. I am new to it but I feel at home with the TLM.

I have been on this forum a few weeks and I am stunned by the venom spewed towards those of us who prefer the TLM. I am beginning to emphatically empathize with those who have fought this battle longer than I. Piouswoman brought up a good point when she asked why you are against a Mass celebrated by hundreds of saints and popes before us. Why aren’t you picking on these saints and popes? Do you have a beef with them too?

Firstly, you attend an SSPX chapel, and your reminders to the rest of us how wonderful it is is promoting SSPX in my mind.
Whatever else you say, this has to be kept in mind that this is a schismatic sect, not in union with Rome.

Secondly, as for ‘the venom’ you experience on this site, you should be aware that non-tradiitonal posters are told that there is no place for them to post here - that this is a traditional site, only for traditionalists. So the venom is on your side.

Thirdly, the presentation why you find the TLM so preferable when the Church decided to drop it 40 years ago makes me wonder. You understand the phrase: 'hocus pocus". Well it derived from the middle ages about priests who were speaking these ‘magical’ words which people didn’t understand.

Do you understand latin? Is it important for you not to participate in the whole Mass?

Do you enjoy those parts of the Mass which are between the priest and God solely? For example, the Offertory prayer, the Secret, and the Postcommunion prayers the priest says to himself, in latin.

It seems to me that the priest is mumbling through parts of the Mass since he doesn’t have to enunciate latin prayers, which he himself may not understand. I am sure most priests cannot tell you what the Epistle is about after reading it in Latin.

Just asking…

 

[laudamus_te]

I have a strong preference for the TLM. It’s natural for me. I am new to it but I feel at home with the TLM.

I have been on this forum a few weeks and I am stunned by the venom spewed towards those of us who prefer the TLM. I am beginning to emphatically empathize with those who have fought this battle longer than I. Piouswoman brought up a good point when she asked why you are against a Mass celebrated by hundreds of saints and popes before us. Why aren’t you picking on these saints and popes? Do you have a beef with them too?

You’re not alone. I personally don’t have much fortitude for this place and the narrow-mindedness of so many, so I tend to come and go, but mostly stay away. And your question, about the Mass of all of the Saints, will never be answered in a straightforward way.

 

[laudamus_te]

Firstly, you attend an SSPX chapel, and your reminders to the rest of us how wonderful it is is promoting SSPX in my mind.
Whatever else you say, this has to be kept in mind that this is a schismatic sect, not in union with Rome.

The SSPX is not a “schismatic sect,” and they have been said by Rome to be “not fully in communion with.” That is not the same thing as “not in union with.”

Secondly, as for ‘the venom’ you experience on this site, you should be aware that non-tradiitonal posters are told that there is no place for them to post here - that this is a traditional site, only for traditionalists. So the venom is on your side.

Thirdly, the presentation why you find the TLM so preferable when the Church decided to drop it 40 years ago makes me wonder. You understand the phrase: 'hocus pocus". Well it derived from the middle ages about priests who were speaking these ‘magical’ words which people didn’t understand.

Do you understand latin? Is it important for you not to participate in the whole Mass?

Do you enjoy those parts of the Mass which are between the priest and God solely? For example, the Offertory prayer, the Secret, and the Postcommunion prayers the priest says to himself, in latin.

It seems to me that the priest is mumbling through parts of the Mass since he doesn’t have to enunciate latin prayers, which he himself may not understand. I am sure most priests cannot tell you what the Epistle is about after reading it in Latin.

Just asking…

May I ask, then, why are you posting here when you have such obvious disdain for the TLM?

 

[Duke_of_Mantua]

Firstly, you attend an SSPX chapel, and your reminders to the rest of us how wonderful it is is promoting SSPX in my mind.
Whatever else you say, this has to be kept in mind that this is a schismatic sect, not in union with Rome.

I have never been to a SSPX Mass. I have never promoted SSPX.

I am curious about SSPX, but I am also curious what snakes taste like; you can hardly conclude I will be making cobra omelets every morning from now on.

 

[dyspepsic]

You’re not alone. I personally don’t have much fortitude for this place and the narrow-mindedness of so many, so I tend to come and go, but mostly stay away. And your question, about the Mass of all of the Saints, will never be answered in a straightforward way.

I never heard anyone who objected to current fascination with the TLM argue against any one who ever celebrated it? It is totally irrelevant who celebrated it in the past. No one even thinks that the TLM was many who are saints - so what?

It doesn’t mean that that Mass is anymore beneficial to those who attend and don’t comprehend, including the priest who is the celebrant. If I walk through Palestine, it doesn’t mean my shoes are any holier.

I come and go to this site myself. After reading so many posts of people attacking, I don’t much feel like being here.

 

[JReducation]

I prefer the NO for a number of reasons, which I shall explain below. However, I am not opposed to the Tridentine form of the mass. It has its place in Catholic tradition. I have participated in many TLM and NO in Latin as well as other languages.

As to the venom, I think that it is caused by those who would try to impose their preference on others. When writing the Motu Propio the Holy Father made two things very clear. The NO is the ordinary form of the Latin Rite. The Tridentine Form is the Extraordinary Form (EF). He also said that he did not want two rites in the Western Church. There are some who would like to see this turned around. This often offends those who want to keep the NO the ordinary form. There are people, I don’t mean you, who would want to eliminate the NO altogether. This is contrary to the Motu Propio.

In addition, if we have the EF, why not take advantage of it? Why must some people feel they have a mission to market the EF to every Catholic? The same applies to those who try to push the NO on others. We have two forms of the Latin Rite mass, NO and EF, period. Let’s leave it alone.

Are there nut jobs out there who have damaged the NO? Of course, there are. That’s for the bishops and religious superiors to correct. The laity can report the situations to the proper authorities and then let them do their job. There are going to be nut jobs in any situation in life. No one said that life is perfect. There are nut jobs in the EF too.

As to SSPX, they are another topic altogether. They are not part of the Motu Propio proper, while the Church hopes that the EF will bring them back. Their leadership has committed certain actions that have incurred excommunication. These issues have to be resolved between their leadership and the Holy See. I fail to see how the average lay person is going to influence the Holy See on this issue. The Church is not a democracy and no one is giving us a vote.

In my own parish we have no EF and we probably won’t have it for years to come. Our parish is administered by a community of Brothers. Some of the Brothers are Brother-Priests. The superior of the house, who by the way is not a priest, has already told the pastor that the EF is not necessary for the spiritual development of their order and he will not give the pastor permission to include it in the parish schedule. Because the pastor is a Brother, he must obey. The bishop respects the autonomy of the order.

This being said, we had a penance service on Monday and had a line of more than 300 people going to confession, between the ages of 7 and 90. We had two Holy Thursday masses simultaneously, one in the church and one in the monastery chapel, because there was not enough room in the church. There were more than 1000 people in the church and about another 200 in the monastery chapel, between the ages of 7 and 90. We have 10 masses scheduled for Easter Sunday. We’re renting priests from hospitals, prisons, colleges and other places where they have priests who do not work in parishes. We have seven religious, but only three are priests.

As to why I prefer the NO: I have an 18-year old son who has autism. He does not have mental retardation, but has serious communication problems as most autistic people do. In fact, he is high functioning enough that he goes to college and is majoring in art. But he is the type of person who needs to see a person’s face and reads verbal cues in order to understand what is happening. After many years of therapy and special classes, he has mastered the art of reading situations and events by observing, rather than listening. Words often confuse him, especially if they are abstract, as is much of the language of liturgy.

I took my son to an EF mass and he fell asleep. We went to mass in the Vatican and sat in the rear of the sanctuary; because the Basilica was so full that they put extra chairs on the sanctuary, behind the Pope, and he couldn’t wait to get out, because it was in Latin and he couldn’t see what the Holy Father was doing.

On a second trip to the Vatican, since I was working for an archdiocese at the time, I was able to secure tickets in the third row front for the midnight mass. Even though the mass was in Latin, my son followed along quite well. The events at the altar were exactly what he saw at home. Since we speak Italian and Spanish at home, he was able to understand most of the homily, even though he had questions. The biggest excitement for him was at the end. When Benedict is leaving the sanctuary, everyone stands on the pews to get a good look at him. Benedict makes it a point to shake people’s hands and say hello as he proceeds out. My son was just two people in from the aisle. He got to shake the Pope’s hand and say hello.

For my family to attend an EF would be cruel to my son. He would have to attend an NO and the rest of us an EF. We want to worship together. There are many people who are right-brained and need the visual (name removed by moderator)ut to make sense of what they hear. Not to see what the priest is doing, but to hear without the visual is torture for these people. They benefit greatly from the NO and they can worship with their families.

But I have nothing against the EF or those who like the EF. I have serious concerns about those who would attack each other because of either form of the mass. Such attacks are not Catholic.

JR

 

[dyspepsic]

I have never been to a SSPX Mass. I have never promoted SSPX.

I am curious about SSPX, but I am also curious what snakes taste like; you can hardly conclude I will be making cobra omelets every morning from now on.

I assumed from post#1 that you attended one. Isn’t what this thread is all about and that you started?

BTW snakes don’t taste good - they eat a lot of rats. Snakes and SSPX in one sentence. Nice nexus.

 

[bear06]

Firstly, you attend an SSPX chapel, and your reminders to the rest of us how wonderful it is is promoting SSPX in my mind.

Whatever else you say, this has to be kept in mind that this is a schismatic sect, not in union with Rome.

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;3449643:

Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same thing.

JR

No they aren’t, but our sexual abuse crisis was mostly about pederasty…not pedophilia.

“Pederasty or paederasty (literally ‘boy-love’, see etymology below) refers to an intimate or erotic relationship between an adolescent boy and an adult male outside his immediate family. It has found expression from earliest times through a variety of customs and practices within different cultures.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

 

[CradleCath]

I spoke bluntly and honestly re a behavior I have seen before.

If you think that is an accusation you have not seen the posts aimed at me since coming here **where I was branded very specifically as another poster **(think Capt was in the name or something like that).

My accusers went on and on – and when I protested my innocence I was told how thin skinned I was – hmmm maybe I wasn’t huh?

But back to the question – did you already report it at that point? Was ‘inclined’ a bit misleading?

Actually, you’ve already admitted that you, having been posting here for only 3 months, are already using your **second **screen name. The first was “Just 1 hr. a week”. Don’t assume that because you seem to need different names to post here, that others need the same.

 

[dyspepsic]

Have you actually read this thread? If so, you might want to read it again.

 

[JReducation]

JReducation;3452459:

No they aren’t, but our sexual abuse crisis was mostly about pederasty…not pedophilia.

“Pederasty or paederasty (literally ‘boy-love’, see etymology below) refers to an intimate or erotic relationship between an adolescent boy and an adult male outside his immediate family. It has found expression from earliest times through a variety of customs and practices within different cultures.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty

This is true and if you had said pederasty from the beginning, I would not have said anything.

Moving along, let’s also remember the words and teachings of Francis and the Church. We don’t know how many of these priests confessed their sin and received absolution. Once the absolution is granted, the rest is a civil matter. The sin has been forgiven and so we must also forgive. Then we must let civil law do its duty.

JR

 

[bear06]

Wow! You must be younger than I thought! First of all she’s not my son. Secondly, are you really going to call me a liar? Sigh! She actually is quite proficient and while she’s probably not going to make it through medical school quite yet, she’s quite familiar and fluent with the Mass. Her pronounciation has been far better than mine for quite awhile and so has my almost 13 year old.

I’ll send you a section of Caesar’s Gallic Wars, Cicero’s Orations, or something from Horace or Livy. That is the kind of classical latin I was taught, and I wasn’t 15 when I was able to comprehend it.

We did an English translation of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. I might have to do it in Latin for fun. And, I’m a little confused. If your were able to comprehend it as some point then why are you doubting that there are people here that can? By the way, I don’t know if you’ve actually seen a Latin missal but they’re a lot less complicated than the Gallic Wars.

More importantly, I’ll be happy to quote some of St. Paul for your son, or for you, and you tell me what is being said.

Well you could but that really wouldn’t be fair because, if need be, I can look it up on-line. The on-line bible I use has the english right above the Latin. And, btw, we don’t have to know the readings in Latin at either the EF or OF in our Church because they’re either said in English or repeated in English. The Mass is relatively the same week in and week out. It doesn’t take long to pick it up. My 6 year old knows exactly what “et cum spirit tu tuo” means and when to say it.

Why all this venom? I understand what is happening in the TLM, assuredly better than you, but I don’t understand why it is considered valuable as a participated mass for the rest of catholicism? Am I not allowed to ask?

Uh, I think you’ve repeatedly asked why you’d want to attend a Mass you do not understand. You have failed to prove that people don’t understand it and have pretty much called me a liar in the process. Plank meet eye.

I am in agreement with the Holy Father ‘big time’. All I see is ‘don’t post here otherwise we will gang up on you and have you banned’. I thought this was for an exchange of ideas. Christian to Christian.

If one is banned it’s their own doing. You do realize that people on both sides of the SSPX issue disagree with you. Why do you think that is?

What have I said that is so offensive? I am asking a question to the poster who started this thread who said he was going to an SSPX chapel for the TLM?

Dude, in this very thread you’ve said I was lying when I said my child was fluent in Latin. You’ve accused someone of attending an SSPX chapel when it’s never happened. You’ve questioned whether the EF is something less than wonderful. You’ve accused priests of mumbling because they don’t know what their saying. The list could probably go on and this is just from this one thread.

Well, it’s Good Friday tomorrow so I probably won’t be around to enjoy any of the fun. Have a very penitential Good Friday and a Happy Easter!

 

[HOPEFUL_IN_UK]

I assumed from post#1 that you attended one. Isn’t what this thread is all about and that you started?

BTW snakes don’t taste good - they eat a lot of rats. Snakes and SSPX in one sentence. Nice nexus.

The OP did not attend an SSPX Mass. Someone helped him find a licit EF Mass to attend.

 

[Unitas]

I have only reflected back what he has openly shared here- and he has included a desire/curiousity to go to one.

Because he had a scheduling conflict that couldn’t allow him to attend his usual TLM. Msgr. Perl has already said that if you attend an SSPX mass merely because you wish to attend a TLM then it is not a sin. It turns out he didn’t go to one. Case closed.

Why do you keep prodding him? What are you trying to prove? He’s already said he prefers the TLM over the NO, as many do here and vise versa. Why is that such a problem? Are you trying to ‘expose’ him as the ‘radical schismatic’ that he is? /sarcasm off

We respect your preference, why not respect ours?

With the reception people get sometimes I’m surprised anyone bothers asking questions here anymore. It’s embarassing.