Dormition vs. Assumption of Mary

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This is not true. It is a popular modern belief but the ancient Tradition of the Church, West and East, is that the Mother of God first died and then shared in the glory of Her Son’s resurrection. The dogmatic decree itself does not state whether she died, but if you read the entire bull, the wider context, Pope Pius clearly teaches that she did indeed did. Her death (unlike the assumption itself) is not dogma, but it is the consistent teaching of the Church. To to the Major Basilica of St Mary in Rome - the Latin Church’s most important Marian Church…the iconography clearly depicts the Dormition of the Blessed Mother.
Then how was my post not true, read it all again if need be in the widest context allowable and you will find both, as i said, both traditions represented. What you find in para 44 is what Pope Pius XII clearly teaches. Just a quick note about one of the earlier traditions and the iconography, the only way that the iconographers could effectively convey the concept of the assumption, which is what they were vitally concerned with, was to use the tomb, or Mary in repose, as a graphic representation in order to depict her assumption into heaven; this is an artistic conception used to illustrate the assumption not to make a hard fast statement that she had died. This is not the same as a work of art that shows, say, The Resurrection, where we have plenty of scriptural accounts to go by.

Happy All Saints Day, and 63rd. anniversary of the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary.
 
Except nothing, it presents both traditions and states only that the course of her earthly life was completed.
Could you show me where it says there is a tradition that she didn’t die?

I’ve read the document and never seen it.

edit: I just notice in another post you reference paragraph 44. Don’t see it there either.
For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
 
Then how was my post not true, read it all again if need be in the widest context allowable and you will find both, as i said, both traditions represented. What you find in para 44 is what Pope Pius XII clearly teaches. Just a quick note about one of the earlier traditions and the iconography, the only way that the iconographers could effectively convey the concept of the assumption, which is what they were vitally concerned with, was to use the tomb, or Mary in repose, as a graphic representation in order to depict her assumption into heaven; this is an artistic conception used to illustrate the assumption not to make a hard fast statement that she had died. This is not the same as a work of art that shows, say, The Resurrection, where we have plenty of scriptural accounts to go by.

Happy All Saints Day, and 63rd. anniversary of the Dogma of the Assumption of Mary.
I hate to break it to you, but according to the Mariological works I’ve gotten to reading right now, Mary did die in both traditions and was raised.
Mary Through the Centuries
 
This is why you should always treat someone writing on what other religions believe with a grain of salt.

While the emphasis between the two teachings is different - Orthodox on her death, Catholics on her rising into heaven, the official teachings of both Churches are the same. There are Orthodox who deny she was assumed into heaven, and there are Catholics who deny she died, but both these groups hold beliefs contrary to the teachings of their Church.
Indeed there is a Greek Orthodox parish not too far that uses both names interchangeably. They certainly don’t see a difference.
 
I had a friend recently show me the following quote from N.T. Wright.

“Though attempts are made to align the ‘dormition’ of Mary (her ‘falling asleep’, i.e. her death) with her ‘assumption’, the two are in fact significantly different. The Orthodox say Mary died and that her body is resting and will eventually be rejoined with her soul; the Romans say she didn’t die, and that both her body and soul are already in Heaven.”

Which makes absolutely no sense to me because he has told me that the Orthodox and Catholic Mariology is quite different and I’m guessing because of this quote. I just recently got some books on Orthodox and Catholic Mariology (albeit from only Anglo-Catholic and Orthodox perspectives) hoping to clear some confusion up.

Does anybody know what N.T. Wright is meaning when he says “attempts” because from Pope Pius XII’s definition of the doctrine of the Assumption, he certainly makes it clear that Mary died. Wright doesn’t make any citations which I also find odd.

Also, my friend’s a Biblicist and doesn’t take anything if it “can’t be found in the Bible”. He’s a pastor at an Evangelical Covenant Church.

Source:
For All the Saints p. 23
I thought Pius XII didn’t define whether she died or not. Wright is wrong here. I’ve noticed that he’s persistently hostile and unfair to Catholicism on anything having to do with the veneration of the saints and the afterlife generally (he claimed, for instance, that Ratzinger/Benedict had renounced the doctrine of Purgatory by saying that Purgatory might not involve time). My own theory, which may also be hostile and unfair, is that having essentially driven a stake through the heart of Protestantism by his advocacy of the “New Perspective,” he’s trying to persuade himself and others that he’s done nothing of the sort by making as much hay as possible out of the other issues that separate Protestantism and Catholicism.

Edwin
 
I thought Pius XII didn’t define whether she died or not. Wright is wrong here. I’ve noticed that he’s persistently hostile and unfair to Catholicism on anything having to do with the veneration of the saints and the afterlife generally (he claimed, for instance, that Ratzinger/Benedict had renounced the doctrine of Purgatory by saying that Purgatory might not involve time). My own theory, which may also be hostile and unfair, is that having essentially driven a stake through the heart of Protestantism by his advocacy of the “New Perspective,” he’s trying to persuade himself and others that he’s done nothing of the sort by making as much hay as possible out of the other issues that separate Protestantism and Catholicism.

Edwin
I’ve largely considered the guy “the Pope of Protestantism”. He’s a good conservative scholar who can be a fresh break from the other extreme liberal side that I get exposed to a lot but I think that a good portion of his colleagues see him as arrogant.
 
I had always felt the Blessed Mother did not die, for one if she died it pulls into question her being kept from sin as the wage of sin is death. This cannot be compared to Jesus as he willingly accepted the sin of the world and suffered the consequence of that sin which is death. Secondly it could be said it was necessary for her to be assumed into heaven as she wasn’t going to die, if you look at some of the saints around the world whose bodies have not decayed for hundreds of years, you can see the relation between sin and death. Thirdly the statement about her completing the course of her earthly life could very well refer to her mission on earth was complete.

To say she died I believe is a hard position to defend and doesn’t quite fit with what we know to be true, but however I think it is also important to compare her to Adam and Eve, would they have died if they had not fallen? I am of the opinion that natural death was not apart of God’s plan and so it came into the world as a consequence of the fall, and seeing as the Blessed Mother was free from original sin and also ever-virgin it is almost repugnant to me that she died. However, unless she asked God to suffer death in union with her Son for the salvation of souls, I am open to believe she had died only in the context of her freely choosing it also.
 
I had always felt the Blessed Mother did not die, for one if she died it pulls into question her being kept from sin as the wage of sin is death. This cannot be compared to Jesus as he willingly accepted the sin of the world and suffered the consequence of that sin which is death. Secondly it could be said it was necessary for her to be assumed into heaven as she wasn’t going to die, if you look at some of the saints around the world whose bodies have not decayed for hundreds of years, you can see the relation between sin and death. Thirdly the statement about her completing the course of her earthly life could very well refer to her mission on earth was complete.

To say she died I believe is a hard position to defend and doesn’t quite fit with what we know to be true, but however I think it is also important to compare her to Adam and Eve, would they have died if they had not fallen? I am of the opinion that natural death was not apart of God’s plan and so it came into the world as a consequence of the fall, and seeing as the Blessed Mother was free from original sin and also ever-virgin it is almost repugnant to me that she died. However, unless she asked God to suffer death in union with her Son for the salvation of souls, I am open to believe she had died only in the context of her freely choosing it also.
Is this feeling drawn from Holy Tradition, or is it just something you’ve concluded on your own? If it was from Holy Tradition could you please show me where it appears. I asked earlier on this page but the individual in question seems to have given up on this thread. The bull proclaiming the doctrine certainly mentions the Tradition that she did taste death.
 
I had a friend recently show me the following quote from N.T. Wright.

“Though attempts are made to align the ‘dormition’ of Mary (her ‘falling asleep’, i.e. her death) with her ‘assumption’, the two are in fact significantly different. The Orthodox say Mary died and that her body is resting and will eventually be rejoined with her soul; the Romans say she didn’t die, and that both her body and soul are already in Heaven.”

Which makes absolutely no sense to me because he has told me that the Orthodox and Catholic Mariology is quite different and I’m guessing because of this quote. I just recently got some books on Orthodox and Catholic Mariology (albeit from only Anglo-Catholic and Orthodox perspectives) hoping to clear some confusion up.

Does anybody know what N.T. Wright is meaning when he says “attempts” because from Pope Pius XII’s definition of the doctrine of the Assumption, he certainly makes it clear that Mary died. Wright doesn’t make any citations which I also find odd.

Also, my friend’s a Biblicist and doesn’t take anything if it “can’t be found in the Bible”. He’s a pastor at an Evangelical Covenant Church.

Source:
For All the Saints p. 23
We know that she went to heaven body and soul. Was she dead, asleep in Christ, it truly has not been revealed to us nor makes a difference.

In Rev its shows John seeing the Blessed Mother, her body in heaven, so we know she went body and soul.

According to the RCC it can be said she was dead, or asleep either is accepted.
 
Is this feeling drawn from Holy Tradition, or is it just something you’ve concluded on your own? If it was from Holy Tradition could you please show me where it appears. I asked earlier on this page but the individual in question seems to have given up on this thread. The bull proclaiming the doctrine certainly mentions the Tradition that she did taste death.
I am aware the tradition says that Mary had died, however what I am concluding is that Mary could not have suffered from death unless she chose to, she was free from the consequences of sin, so she could not have suffered those consequences without consenting to them, as Our Lord had done. I believe this approach conforms with tradition, because to say she died without consent would cause severe problems with other revelations on the Blessed Mother.
 
I am aware the tradition says that Mary had died, however what I am concluding is that Mary could not have suffered from death unless she chose to, she was free from the consequences of sin, so she could not have suffered those consequences without consenting to them, as Our Lord had done. I believe this approach conforms with tradition, because to say she died without consent would cause severe problems with other revelations on the Blessed Mother.
How would it cause problems with other revelations?

Isn’t the whole idea of your magesterium that you allow it to sort out these issues rather than coming to your own conclusions based on less learned and more limited data?
 
How would it cause problems with other revelations?

Isn’t the whole idea of your magesterium that you allow it to sort out these issues rather than coming to your own conclusions based on less learned and more limited data?
The problems it would cause are a conflict with the Immaculate Conception and sinlessness of the Virgin Mary, I said earlier that I was of the opinion of there not being natural death in the world before the fall of Adam, that is an legitimate opinion to hold as a Catholic and as far as I am aware also for the Orthodox, but you would know more about that. “Come now, let us reason together” The Virgin Mary could not die a natural death if she had no sin, if she was born into the original state of righteousness, the same state Adam was created in, then there is no reason to believe that Adam was going to die if he didn’t fall, the same must be concluded for the Blessed Mother. So Unless you want to argue that the fall refers to spiritual death only, then on those grounds it’s fine to say the Blessed Mother died naturally.

As far as the magisterium is concerned it has not defined Mary’s death as de fide and until such point in time I stand to say that she did not die, also good to note that the tradition of her death comes from apocryphal sources, and even though they are a good way of understanding what Christians had believed at the time we cannot be expected to believe in every detail of those stories as the assurance that it came from the apostles can not be verified, and so until the Church speaks definitely on the subject these are my opinions.

And the final point about conclusions, the magisterium allows people to come to their own conclusions on matters and when it is so inclined, it will teach us which opinions are acceptable and which are contrary to the faith.
I am also of the belief that the most simplest mind can teach the most profound truth, and we should never dismiss the ideas of those that we deem less learned than ourselves, unless any such idea absolutely contradicts the Faith.
 
I’ve largely considered the guy “the Pope of Protestantism”. He’s a good conservative scholar who can be a fresh break from the other extreme liberal side that I get exposed to a lot but I think that a good portion of his colleagues see him as arrogant.
Scholars who attain wide public influence are usually seen that way by other scholars. I’ve not so much heard the “arrogant” charge as the dismissive “he’s an apologist, not a Biblical scholar.”

In my own very limited personal interaction with him (in the Q & A sessions following public talks) I’ve found him to be extremely gracious, and the personality that comes through in his books is , I think, a kind and generous albeit very forceful one.

I wish he were the Pope of Protestantism. I’m not sure who is now that Billy Graham is no longer active. For a while it seemed as if Rick Warren was, but he seems to have faded a bit.

Edwin
 
The problems it would cause are a conflict with the Immaculate Conception and sinlessness of the Virgin Mary, I said earlier that I was of the opinion of there not being natural death in the world before the fall of Adam, that is an legitimate opinion to hold as a Catholic and as far as I am aware also for the Orthodox, but you would know more about that. “Come now, let us reason together” The Virgin Mary could not die a natural death if she had no sin, if she was born into the original state of righteousness, the same state Adam was created in, then there is no reason to believe that Adam was going to die if he didn’t fall, the same must be concluded for the Blessed Mother. So Unless you want to argue that the fall refers to spiritual death only, then on those grounds it’s fine to say the Blessed Mother died naturally.
We teach (both of us as far as I know) “Christ Victorious”, that with his crucifixion Christ conquered death for all who would believe in, and follow him. We hold to this belief in spite of the fact that people still clearly die. We don’t take this to mean they lacked faith, rather that the conquest over death was not one that would see an end to aging or bodily decay (and I mean decay while alive, I’m not going to get into incorruptible bodies here).

I would hesitate to say that the death that was conquered was spiritual, but I don’t believe we’ll truly see what form the conquest took until after death.

I’ve digressed a little, but I suppose what I’m trying to get at is that Christ conquered death, so any issues with the Theotokos not being able to die due to sinlessness, would also apply to everyone else due to the victory of Christ.
As far as the magisterium is concerned it has not defined Mary’s death as de fide and until such point in time I stand to say that she did not die, also good to note that the tradition of her death comes from apocryphal sources, and even though they are a good way of understanding what Christians had believed at the time we cannot be expected to believe in every detail of those stories as the assurance that it came from the apostles can not be verified, and so until the Church speaks definitely on the subject these are my opinions.
It has not attached an anathema to disagreement, as it has with the assumption itself. But does it need to do that before you’ll agree it is a teaching of the church? As I noted previously, the bull, Munificentissimus Deus, clearly mentions the tradition that she died. While another poster here claimed that it also mentions a tradition that she did not, I have been unable to find that, or to see any evidence of such a reference.

The tradition of her death may come from “apocryphal” sources, but so does the tradition of her assumption. That is a self defeating argument. Much of Holy Tradition comes from extra-biblical sources.
And the final point about conclusions, the magisterium allows people to come to their own conclusions on matters and when it is so inclined, it will teach us which opinions are acceptable and which are contrary to the faith.
I am also of the belief that the most simplest mind can teach the most profound truth, and we should never dismiss the ideas of those that we deem less learned than ourselves, unless any such idea absolutely contradicts the Faith.
Its funny, I’m usually on the other side of this particular argument. I can only go by how the Orthodox Church works, but the Church has a teaching on most issues, even secondary issues (such as this), and while the secondary issues aren’t required belief, it is expected that people strive toward believing, and don’t publicly preach otherwise.
 
Scholars who attain wide public influence are usually seen that way by other scholars. I’ve not so much heard the “arrogant” charge as the dismissive “he’s an apologist, not a Biblical scholar.”

In my own very limited personal interaction with him (in the Q & A sessions following public talks) I’ve found him to be extremely gracious, and the personality that comes through in his books is , I think, a kind and generous albeit very forceful one.

I wish he were the Pope of Protestantism. I’m not sure who is now that Billy Graham is no longer active. For a while it seemed as if Rick Warren was, but he seems to have faded a bit.

Edwin
Yeah. You’re right.

Rick Warren probably not. Joel Osteen might be a good candidate. I take it you don’t agree with everything Bishop Schori says.
 
We teach (both of us as far as I know) “Christ Victorious”, that with his crucifixion Christ conquered death for all who would believe in, and follow him.
That’s if you take St. Anselm and St. Thomas Aquinas in their intended context of the punishment of Christ being remedial and medicinal of restoring humanity back to God whose honor was damaged and felt the need to repair a fallen race.

If you take them out of context and too literally, you end up with much more of an R.C. Sproulish kind of a philosophy about the atonement. (I shuddered just thinking about that!)
 
Could you show me where it says there is a tradition that she didn’t die?

I’ve read the document and never seen it.

edit: I just notice in another post you reference paragraph 44. Don’t see it there either.
Not if you can’t accept what you read, no i can’t; the posts said we believe it is a possibility that has a good foundation and whether you wish to admit that is true or not hasn’t got much to do with me, or it’s just simply that you can’t see it as a possibility, that’s okay the doctrine’s written for the universal church. Mary’s a unifier, not a divider. Your belief is understandable but why isn’t ours?

It’s encapsulated as a mystery in the earliest tradition about the assumption right along side with the tradition you favor; hence it was called “The Dormition of Mary.” Now before you tell me that dormition actually means death, what state were you in last night while you were sleeping; that’s right, and you don’t see that word in para 44 either do you?
 
Not if you can’t accept what you read, no i can’t; the posts said we believe it is a possibility that has a good foundation and whether you wish to admit that is true or not hasn’t got much to do with me, or it’s just simply that you can’t see it as a possibility, that’s okay the doctrine’s written for the universal church. Mary’s a unifier, not a divider. Your belief is understandable but why isn’t ours?

It’s encapsulated as a mystery in the earliest tradition about the assumption right along side with the tradition you favor; hence it was called “The Dormition of Mary.” Now before you tell me that dormition actually means death, what state were you in last night while you were sleeping; that’s right, and you don’t see that word in para 44 either do you?
The problem is that both the NT and the HB (or OT) use “sleep” as a euphemism for death.

Job 14:12 - so mortals lie down and do not rise again; until the heavens are no more, they will not awake or be roused out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3 - Consider and answer me, O Lord my God! Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

Daniel 12:1 - Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:13 - Jesus, however, had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was referring merely to sleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died [footnote: Gk fallen asleep], so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.

1 Corinthians 15:6 - Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died [footnote: Gk fallen asleep].

Source: NRSV Catholic Edition

Sorry, I think Nine_Two is fairly Orthodox here.
 
I thought Pius XII didn’t define whether she died or not.
He did not. This topic always draws some rather dogmatic opinions, but the Catholic Church is not dogmatic on this.
I had always felt the Blessed Mother did not die,.
At this time, that is an acceptable belief. There seems to be a push to draw a dogma here on the death of Mary that even Pius XII did not draw. At this time Catholics are free to differ on this.
 
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