Double Predestination?

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a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
 
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
If I saw some one fall from a great height and stated they would be dead on impact did I cause their death? Knowing what will happen is not predestining that knowledge.
Would it be fair for that unsaved person not to have been created?
 
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
If I’m not mistaken, the calvinist doctrine of predestination includes the following teachings:
  1. God’s universal will to save all mankind cannot be considered very sincere or sincere at all.
  2. Out of the whole lump of humanity, God predestines some people to heaven and others to hell. Those He chooses to predestine to heaven, He gives them irresistable graces by which they are infallibly saved. All others God predestines to hell and He either does not give them grace or only graces that these people will infallibly resist.
The above is contrary to the catholic doctrine of predestination which can be summarized as follows:
  1. God sincerely desires that all mankind be saved as St Paul says. Indeed, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for all mankind, for every single individual.
  2. God gives sufficient grace to every person to save their soul.
  3. We can resist God’s grace and thus we need to cooperate with God’s grace to save our souls as St Augustine said “God created you without you, but He will not save you without you.” Human beings have free will which was not totally corrupted by the Original Sin of Adam and Eve. Calvinists, I believe, teach that by original sin, free will has been so depraved that it is useless in regard to doing any good that is conducive to salvation. This is why they believe that God must give irresistable graces which will infallibly produce the desired effect in those He chooses to save.
  4. God predestines no one to hell before foreseen sins and persistence in sin and resistance to God’s grace to the end, namely, the end of one’s life.
  5. God predestines to heaven those He foreknows who will freely cooperate with His grace which includes those who may repent at the final moment of their life.
 
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
God knows everything from eternity. But it is strange, the way he knows it. From his own “always being” he knows of something that is “not always being”, and something that is “other” than God, meaning created. He knew (“knows” might be a more appropriate term) that the “other” would be just as he knew (knows) it. You might say he “inspired it” or, rather, “spirated” it - his word and his breath were always spoken and breathed, his breath was “abroad” always, and at the time he always knew (knows) that the “not always being” would be, it was, because his Word was there, his Spirit, was there, and just as he knew (knows), the “not always” and the “not God” was there. And here we are.

But how can he, knowing all, have a “contingent” and free “not God” creation?
It is in the way he knows us. The angels, in a way, had no choice - from the instant of their creation they knew everything about themselves, as much as God gave them insight or understanding at that instant to know. Some, loving the understanding of God they had, turned to see him and will never turn away. Others loving the understanding of themselves never turned to look at God, but only kept looking at themselves and will never turn to Him. He knew that would happen with angels. But he did not make them to be his true companions, his true love. They were known to be instruments for interacting with his true love, us, instruments for relating to us in a sort of contingency, where we do not know everything in an instant, but learn and reason through our human (animal, material) senses, and come to recognize and love what we experience, and then seek to unite to what we love. And rather than presenting himself to our sight as with the angels, who when they turned to him could not turn away (because of their full love for him, compelled by the glory of him), he presented himself to us in Jesus, one of us. He told us he was coming, with the prophets. There is this revelation, to be thought about by us. And with the revelation is a call to unite to this Jesus, and there is the sight of those who have united to him, all working at our intellect and will, to woo us, to court us into loving this Jesus and his Father.

One of the things God always knew (knows) is that he, himself, would interact with this “not always being”, this “other”, in contingency, as an “equal” of sorts. In a manner of speaking, he does know what will happen, because to him it has already happened; to him the last day was always with him. But in the world of the “not always” (here) he works not knowing, but “reasoning together” with us. He does know all he does on his part, and one of the things he knows and does on his part is to call us to believe in him (in Jesus). One of the things he does not do is tell us it is all decided. He is a lover, wooing his beloved. He is not a logician giving us a lecture on what is what, which we cannot deny.

Well, that is all I can think of right now; time for bed. Double predestination describes the reasoned God of philosophy, but not the Lover God of revelation, not the Persons of God.
 
I once worshipped in a Presbyterian church where Predestination was preached. I asked the question if some of us are predestined to be saved are some of us predestined not to be saved? I was told yes. From that moment on I considered Calvinists akin to eating fish in that you eat the fish and leave the bones.
To be told by the Pastor that whatever I do I will have no say in being saved or not is ludicrous!
That Pastor made me Catholic.
www,catholicprayergroup.net
 
Knowledge of where we will end up does not equate to a desire on His part to send us to hell. Just because God knows where I will end up based on the choices I make, does not mean He made me make them. If we are pre-destined (no matter where we are destined for) we are slaves. THERE IS NO FREE WILL in pre-destination. This makes a mockery of Jesus’ teachings. You can also throw out 1 Timothy 2 if you hold to pre-destination.
 
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?
We’ve still got free will, and can choose for or against God. So even if God sees a person going to hell well in advance, that persons’ free will is still in operation.

This question has some personal resonance in my case, as I’ve said before the night my father died, he appeared in my bedroom. He started with an apology for 20 years of deliberate cruelty, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave this almighty scream and just disappeared.

However at one point, he blurted out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!!”

I argued back (and I was an atheist at the time) “That can’t be right!” (in the moral sense).

He replied, “Oh, it’s right all right. You can see that from here.”

However later in the very same exchange he said, “I was WILLING!” (to do the cruel stupid things that condemned him, and not stop doing them till the very end).

My old pastor thought he would have been very willing.

So on the one hand, he was saying he “always was doomed”, yet declaring “it was right”, and admitting he had made willing choices which doomed him.

Now God might know who’s saved and who isn’t, but WE don’t. And that’s the danger of Calvinism - some of his followers start presuming they’re intrinsically saved, and that therefore they can behave in any which way, and they’ll still be saved. There’s one Presbyterian pastor I’ve got no time for, of whom my own pastor stated -

“He tells a lot of lies” and “I think he serves the devil. He thinks he serves God, but he serves the devil. It’s a terrible situation to be in.”

This bloke is a classic case. He’ll lie, backstab, ruin the reputation of others, conspire to ruin the careers and vocations of other people, including other pastors, and yet still thinks he’s going to get into heaven because he’s one of the elect.

That’s what he thinks.
 
If I saw some one fall from a great height and stated they would be dead on impact did I cause their death? Knowing what will happen is not predestining that knowledge.
Would it be fair for that unsaved person not to have been created?
It would be absolutely fair and much more in line with a supposedly loving god.
 
It would be absolutely fair and much more in line with a supposedly loving god.
Then you might as well say death for everyone is the unfair legacy of a supposedly loving God because all of us must die sooner or later.
 
Then you might as well say death for everyone is the unfair legacy of a supposedly loving God because all of us must die sooner or later.
Not as a Deist I wouldn’t, because I do not believe that God directly created me or interfered in my life. Death is simply a reality of physical existence.
 
Just because our Lord is omniscient and knows the outcome of each of our lives this does not mean that He creates any of us to condemn us to hell – we can only do that by our own choices. The Church teaches the truth when she says that God wills that ALL men be saved – all men, not only a few of them, though only a few are saved, according to the Church Fathers and other saints. God bless you.
 
Just because our Lord is omniscient and knows the outcome of each of our lives this does not mean that He creates any of us to condemn us to hell – we can only do that by our own choices. The Church teaches the truth when she says that God wills that ALL men be saved – all men, not only a few of them,** though only a few are saved, according to the Church Fathers and other saints**. God bless you.
And the Christian God knew this from the beginning of time and still created all those who would not be saved. To what end?
 
And the Christian God knew this from the beginning of time and still created all those who would not be saved. To what end?
To show forth his love…just like everything else God does, why we are here.

Christ’s Cross can give us a glimpse of this, why God would allow us free will.
 
And the Christian God knew this from the beginning of time and still created all those who would not be saved. To what end?
I’d say its a risk that God takes whenever He creates intelligent creatures with a considerable element of free will.

He created spiritual beings, much more intelligent than we are, and some of them fell.

He created human beings, the highest form of life on earth, and we fell. We can create symphony orchestras with music to match, and we can create concentration camps. The animals can’t do either - they’re not intelligent enough.

I wonder what would happen if we made robots in our image, and gave them enough intelligence and self will to rebel if they decided to? War on earth or in space? Or should we chicken out and not take the risk?

I think for God it’s an unavoidable risk. Yet He’s also made it clear what the penalty is for ignoring Him, but people just go on doing so. I wouldn’t be surprised if He warned the spiritual beings who were thinking of rebelling what the outcome would be, but they probably ignored Him too, or thought they’d get away with it.

After all, if their entire experience before their rebellion had been heaven or heavenly, they’d have been disbelieving about the possibility of hell, since it didn’t exist till they rebelled.
 
I’d say its a risk that God takes whenever He creates intelligent creatures with a considerable element of free will.

He created spiritual beings, much more intelligent than we are, and some of them fell.

He created human beings, the highest form of life on earth, and we fell. We can create symphony orchestras with music to match, and we can create concentration camps. The animals can’t do either - they’re not intelligent enough.

I wonder what would happen if we made robots in our image, and gave them enough intelligence and self will to rebel if they decided to? War on earth or in space? Or should we chicken out and not take the risk?

I think for God it’s an unavoidable risk. Yet He’s also made it clear what the penalty is for ignoring Him, but people just go on doing so. I wouldn’t be surprised if He warned the spiritual beings who were thinking of rebelling what the outcome would be, but they probably ignored Him too, or thought they’d get away with it.

After all, if their entire experience before their rebellion had been heaven or heavenly, they’d have been disbelieving about the possibility of hell, since it didn’t exist till they rebelled.
So He creates us, then says…“Oh, and by the way, if you don’t do this, you will burn eternally.” Is it any wonder that people have left Christianity in droves? It is not logical and people like a logical superior being.
 
There is this argument of “I can foresee someone who will fall, but this foreknowledge does not cause the fall itself” is true, but it does not look at the whole picture. If you would foresee the event BEFORE that person is created, and you STILL create that person, then you are personally responsible for the fall. The responsibility does not come from the “foreknowledge”, but from the creation having the foreknowledge and STILL performing the creation. Simple, isn’t it?
 
a Calvanist friend of mine brought up this question, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. In fact, it seems there’s no way out of admitting his conclusion. The question is this:

If God created everyone, and knows everything that happens in their lives, he ultimately knows some will go to hell. So doesn’t this basically prove double predestination? Because why would God create someone when he knows they will end up in hell?

In order to refute something, we cannot refute with love if we use words like “stupid” or “ludicrous.” Just because we disagree does not make us right. We are not the authority.

The Catholic Church believes in predestination. The Catechism clearly states that the Virgin Mary was predestined. It also speaks to Jesus’ crucifixion being predestined. We know that that God chose the nation of Israel not for who they were or did. He chose them because it was His will. So predestination is true. The issue is with double predestination.

Double predestination is logical. That doesn’t mean it’s correct. It is logical: If God predestined some for salvation, a natural conclusion is that the others are predestined to hell. Many Catholics go wrong when they believe they are chosen because they first chose Christ. Jesus says, no, I chose you. This leads me to the conclusion that predestination is a mystery which lies in the secret things of God.

When refuting others, get them to think. Ask, “If double predestination is true, are you predestined for salvation?” If the person says yes, how does he know with certainty? If he says because he believes or baptism, so did Judas, Simon Magus and others. They are relying upon a presumption, not evidence. I think the person has to at some point admit they cooperate with God’s will.
 
So He creates us, then says…“Oh, and by the way, if you don’t do this, you will burn eternally.” Is it any wonder that people have left Christianity in droves? It is not logical and people like a logical superior being.
Part of God ordering us to a supernatural end means that rejecting our end is rejecting God.

Granted, it’s not popular now, but maybe you’d like the concept of Limbo?
 
Part of God ordering us to a supernatural end means that rejecting our end is rejecting God.

Granted, it’s not popular now, but maybe you’d like the concept of Limbo?
No, thank you very much, but, limbo was taught in my youth and made no more sense than the rest. Epiphanies are a wonderful thing.

BTW, if God is ordering us, He is responsible for our destiny. You simply cannot avoid that omniscience issue.
 
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