Double trouble!

[Aloysium]

consider:
i am sitting here and thinking; i exist
you are sitting there trying to make out what the heck i’m saying; you exist
as does the next guy, reading this
as does some random person is sitting in a sweatshop on the other side of the world
as does some person dying in the hospital or battlefield

we all exist in time-space and in eternity

now you may think the beingness of the universe is shattered out there like a broken mirror
each of us in our own little existence, unconnected, unloved, brief sparks in a void;
i have no idea, because your understanding of the nature of reality remains undisclosed

truthfully, it is through God’s infinite love that we all exist;
through His eternal act of being, our individual existence comes into being.
He knows us all, because He creates us and
it is within His infinite sea of compassion that we all dwell

His omniscience actually includes even more than this.

Guess this is just another post with no proof . . . meh.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

How about He writes his prediction on a stone tablet only to be revealed after the roll.

Of course being an omnipotent being he could tamper with the results without you knowing.

 

[aemcpa]

How about He writes his prediction on a stone tablet only to be revealed after the roll.

Of course being an omnipotent being he could tamper with the results without you knowing.

He could tamper with the OP’s memory of what He predicted as well, or compel the OP to do what He predicts. This whole scenario is nonsensical.

 

[Tyrion]

I think this sort of dialectic between you and God presumes too much about the nature of interaction with a timeless being. This may very well be like asking God how much the color green weighs.

Why would it? I could ask God to predict the movement of an asteroid… since it is deterministic, there would be no problem… actually any astronomer could do it. To predict the movement of an electron is highly dubious, thanks to the Heisenberg uncertainity principle. The prediction of a being with free will is even more problematic… but as soon as that being is aware of the prediction, he can invalidate it. Just think about a scenario, where the being is told that he will get into his car, run over a nail, blow a tire and suffer a fatal accident. Only an idiot would comply with such a prediction.

 

[Lochias]

Why would it? I could ask God to predict the movement of an asteroid… since it is deterministic, there would be no problem… actually any astronomer could do it. To predict the movement of an electron is highly dubious, thanks to the Heisenberg uncertainity principle. The prediction of a being with free will is even more problematic… but as soon as that being is aware of the prediction, he can invalidate it. Just think about a scenario, where the being is told that he will get into his car, run over a nail, blow a tire and suffer a fatal accident. Only an idiot would comply with such a prediction.

Your premise is illogical from the outset. Thus far, you’re simply wasting energy.

 

[Tyrion]

How about He writes his prediction on a stone tablet only to be revealed after the roll.

Of course being an omnipotent being he could tamper with the results without you knowing.

Yes, he could. What a sad scenario is when God must resort to cheating.

He could tamper with the OP’s memory of what He predicted as well, or compel the OP to do what He predicts. This whole scenario is nonsensical.

Yes. He can take over my brain process Of course that is something that God would never do with mass murderers - so they say.

 

[Lochias]

Yes, he could. What a sad scenario is when God must resort to cheating.

Yes. He can take over my brain process Of course that is something that God would never do with mass murderers - so they say.

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[Lochias]

Yes, he could. What a sad scenario is when God must resort to cheating.

Yes. He can take over my brain process Of course that is something that God would never do with mass murderers - so they say.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[ngill09]

Okay, assuming for sake of argument that this sort of interaction is even possible:

There are two situations.

1. God doesn’t tell you what you’re going to do. You roll the dice, and He knows ahead of time what the outcome is.
2. God tells you what you’re “going to do”, but knows that doing that would change the situation, and also knows how changing this situation would change the outcome. He would know ahead of time what the outcome would be if he told you what you’re going to do.

The problem is that telling you changes the “(name removed by moderator)uts” and therefore results in a completely different situation. But no matter what the situation is, God knows the outcome. It eventually can result in a sort of infinite regress, where God says

“You’re going to roll 1 dice, but since I told you that, you’re going to roll 2 dice, but since I told you that, you’re going to roll 1 dice, etc.”

The thing is that God knows this and this sort of infinity doesn’t need to be a problem for Him. So most likely He’s just not going to bother telling you.

And that’s why I don’t think this is particularly problematic, but I think the quandary I posed is more interesting. That being the problem of God’s own free will. Because He can’t just choose not to tell Himself what He’s going to do. But I think this is best resolved by positing God’s omniscience as “knowing what would happen if He took any particular action”. There’s also the question about whether God’s nature allows for decision-making, since God would by definition always choose optimally, which makes you wonder if it’s possible for God to choose something sub-optimal.

 

[shoe]

When the Bible speaks of God as Being both omniscient and omnipotent, I believe it does so with the understanding that God’s knowledge does not hinder His actions and that His actions do not hinder His knowledge. Apart from Himself, God has created all things; therefore He is able to know all things. And by God’s actions, His omnipotence, He is able to make and keep all things in existence. And so I think it doesn’t make any sense to believe that things may exist in the universe that God does not have either knowledge of or power over. I think the Bible also indicates that God is not the sort of Being who snaps to attention when non-believers say the only way God can prove His omniscience and omnipotence to them is by His performing magic tricks for them.

 

[snarflemike]

Yes. He can take over my brain process Of course that is something that God would never do with mass murderers - so they say.

Or maybe he could just remove the huge chip from your shoulder. What is it about God that bothers you so much?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Yes, he could. What a sad scenario is when God must resort to cheating.

So what about carving it in a stone tablet, which can be shown to a agreed upon third party. You roll and then look at the prediction.

 

[snarflemike]

So what about carving it in a stone tablet, which can be shown to a agreed upon third party. You roll and then look at the prediction.

Something tells me the OP would reject this as well. Let’s look at what he’s asking for:

1. God predicts my action in the future and tells me
2. I change my action
3. God’s prediction is nonetheless correct

This simply reduces to asking if God can make both A and not A at the same time, which is of course a logical impossibility. God’s omniscience does not include making logical impossibilities possible, as the OP would know if he studied the meaning of the words he is using.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Something tells me the OP would reject this as well. Let’s look at what he’s asking for:

1. God predicts my action in the future and tells me
2. I change my action
3. God’s prediction is nonetheless correct

This simply reduces to asking if God can make both A and not A at the same time, which is of course a logical impossibility. God’s omniscience does not include making logical impossibilities possible, as the OP would know if he studied the meaning of the words he is using.

The old “Can God make a rock so large that He can’t lift it”

 

[Ion]

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.
…
Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

Tyrion, read The Book man…
Now in your logical “paradox”, the problem is not God but you! You are the person who can’t get the future! And your free will would be actually flawed. What you say is actualy what you practice as an atheist, “if God said something i will do the otherwise”. Thats only your free will, which you got it as a gift, and you missuse it. For now…

 

[Blinky]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. He fasted for forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was hungry.

The tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become loaves of bread.” He said in reply, “It is written: ‘One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’”

Then the devil took him to the holy city, and made him stand on the parapet of the temple, and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: ‘He will command his angels concerning you’ and ‘with their hands they will support you, lest you dash your foot against a stone.’” Jesus answered him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.’”

Then the devil took him up to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence, and he said to him, “All these I shall give to you, if you will prostrate yourself and worship me.” At this, Jesus said to him, “Get away, Satan! It is written: ‘The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve.’”

Then the devil left him and, behold, angels came and ministered to him.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

he knows which one you will choose but, as you say, he also allows you to use your freewill to change your mind. so before you changed your mind you were going to pick 3 and he told you you would pick three even before you knew yourself which number you would pick.
but now that he has told you that you picked three he now allows you to exercise your freewill and you do and you pick any other number.
isn’t he good.

 

[Love4All]

Simple. He would just write down the answers and seal them in an envelope until after you have acted.

And the envelope would be placed in a locker whose location and combination the OP could only discover after he rolls the dice and sees the numbers that make up the locker # and combination.

/thread.

Tyrion’s logic has been soundly defeated by two of his fellow human beings. God could do the same thing, in infinite different ways. But if He were to do what is outlined above, that would meet Tyrion’s criteria.

A deeper question now is, will Tyrion grasp it?

God alone knows.

 

[CandideWest]

/thread.

Tyrion’s logic has been soundly defeated by two of his fellow human beings. God could do the same thing, in infinite different ways. But if He were to do what is outlined above, that would meet Tyrion’s criteria.

A deeper question now is, will Tyrion grasp it?

God alone knows.

Afraid not, they don’t demonstrate Gods omniscience (he could achieve the result just as easily by omnipotence by putting a blank sheet of paper in the envelope, watching the roll and then magicing a replacement piece of paper with the correct result into the envelope).

 

[Gorgias]

Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

Tyrion,

You seem not to recognize what your thought experiment is really doing, so let me clear it up for you: you think that it is answering the question, “Can God prove his omniscience?”, but it’s not. Rather, it’s answering the question “Does God impose his will upon us to the detriment of our free will?” You have correctly answered the question that you (don’t realize you’ve) asked: no, God will never impose his will upon us, and will allow us to act as we wish. (However, that in no way implies that he is unaware of what we will ultimately choose.)

The ancient Greeks chewed on the same question in their tragedies: the Fates would decree a particular outcome, and humans who knew of the prediction would try their best to avoid it. Yet, through circumstance – not through the curtailing of free will – the prediction would come to pass. Both omniscient prediction and human free will would triumph.

Oh… and just in case you think you’ve outsmarted God, I think his answer to you might be of the following form: “What will you do? You will choose the course that you think best outwits Me; nevertheless, it won’t.”