Double trouble!

[Roscoe_Turner]

Afraid not, they don’t demonstrate Gods omniscience (he could achieve the result just as easily by omnipotence by putting a blank sheet of paper in the envelope, watching the roll and then magicing a replacement piece of paper with the correct result into the envelope).

The whole scenario struck me as part of a Chris Angel special

 

[aemcpa]

Afraid not, they don’t demonstrate Gods omniscience (he could achieve the result just as easily by omnipotence by putting a blank sheet of paper in the envelope, watching the roll and then magicing a replacement piece of paper with the correct result into the envelope).

Do not take Him for some conjurer of cheap tricks.

 

[Tyrion]

Okay, assuming for sake of argument that this sort of interaction is even possible:

There are two situations.

1. God doesn’t tell you what you’re going to do. You roll the dice, and He knows ahead of time what the outcome is.
2. God tells you what you’re “going to do”, but knows that doing that would change the situation, and also knows how changing this situation would change the outcome. He would know ahead of time what the outcome would be if he told you what you’re going to do.

The problem is that telling you changes the “(name removed by moderator)uts” and therefore results in a completely different situation. But no matter what the situation is, God knows the outcome. It eventually can result in a sort of infinite regress, where God says

“You’re going to roll 1 dice, but since I told you that, you’re going to roll 2 dice, but since I told you that, you’re going to roll 1 dice, etc.”

The thing is that God knows this and this sort of infinity doesn’t need to be a problem for Him. So most likely He’s just not going to bother telling you.

That is the point. If he knows the future (which presents other problems, not to be discussed this time) even he is unable to prove it. That is not a problem for most believers, since they just “believe”, without evidence or proof. It is just another empty, unproven assertion.

 

[Tyrion]

So what about carving it in a stone tablet, which can be shown to a agreed upon third party. You roll and then look at the prediction.

Except I do NOT agree to any third party, since I can never be SURE if that third party is not influenced (bribed? threatened? or modified?) by God. The only “testimony” I accept is my own, first hand experience.

 

[Lochias]

That is the point. If he knows the future (which presents other problems, not to be discussed this time) even he is unable to prove it. That is not a problem for most believers, since they just “believe”, without evidence or proof. It is just another empty, unproven assertion.

You are failing to account for our own free will, which He allows to be fully exercised. Just because He knows what will and won’t happen doesn’t mean He doesn’t allow us the benefits and consequences of what we do.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Except I do NOT agree to any third party, since I can never be SURE if that third party is not influenced (bribed? threatened? or modified?) by God. The only “testimony” I accept is my own, first hand experience.

How can you ever be sure? The scenario isn’t leak proof. It could be pulled off by slight of hand. I think you are doing it backwards. What would constitute proof for you and then construct a scenario. Then “test” it.

 

[CandideWest]

That is the point. If he knows the future (which presents other problems, not to be discussed this time) even he is unable to prove it. That is not a problem for most believers, since they just “believe”, without evidence or proof. It is just another empty, unproven assertion.

Yes, I believe you have in fact shown that it is not possible for God to demonstrate his own omniscience as it is always possible (as you have in your example) to generate questions which it is theoretically possible to answer correctly but which nonetheless God cannot answer the correctly.

I don’t think there’s much ground gained here though. To the best of my knowledge nobody has said that it is possible for anyone to demonstrate Gods omniscience. As you said it is a matter of faith for Christians, not something for which there is evidence.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

And why do you think God would ever concent to be placed on trial by you or anyone else. Your problem and that of your like minded associates is that you think you can put God in a box, take him before the judge, try him for not " measuring up. " And why should any intelligent Christian agree to your terms ? Of course, the fools will line up.

" God does not play dice. " ( Albert Einstein ) Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/180/565/180565877_640.jpg

Obviously, And he wants us all to know how clever he thinks he is. Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Yes, I believe you have in fact shown that it is not possible for God to demonstrate his own omniscience as it is always possible (as you have in your example) to generate questions which it is theoretically possible to answer correctly but which nonetheless God cannot answer the correctly.

I don’t think there’s much ground gained here though. To the best of my knowledge nobody has said that it is possible for anyone to demonstrate Gods omniscience. As you said it is a matter of faith for Christians, not something for which there is evidence.

Of course, the cheerleader sqaud to the rescue. I’m sure God is trembling in fear.
Linus2nd

 

[Love4All]

Afraid not, they don’t demonstrate Gods omniscience (he could achieve the result just as easily by omnipotence by putting a blank sheet of paper in the envelope, watching the roll and then magicing a replacement piece of paper with the correct result into the envelope).

Given that God is omnipotent, His omniscience necessarily follows. Unless “to know” is not a power.

 

[ngill09]

That is the point. If he knows the future (which presents other problems, not to be discussed this time) even he is unable to prove it. That is not a problem for most believers, since they just “believe”, without evidence or proof. It is just another empty, unproven assertion.

Ah, I guess I mistook your thought experiment to be more interesting than it actually was. Yes, God could easily show His omniscience by telling third parties what will happen. In fact, many Christians believe this is exactly what He did in the OT prophesies.

 

[snarflemike]

Yes, I believe you have in fact shown that it is not possible for God to demonstrate his own omniscience as it is always possible (as you have in your example) to generate questions which it is theoretically possible to answer correctly but which nonetheless God cannot answer the correctly.

Please explain how this example could be answered “correctly”. Walk us through the steps.

 

[Love4All]

Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?

As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes. Since I will act only when I heard the prediction, I am in the driver’s seat.

Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)

Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic. Can anyone refute this logic?

O.K., Tyrion, let’s play.

I predict that you will attempt to select four dice, but you will miscount and actually select only three. You will be so flustered trying to count dice that you will mistake your right hand for your left. You will intend to use your left hand, but it will really be your right. You will try to wait six minutes, but you will underestimate the six minutes and you will actually roll those three dice, with your right hand, in five. I am God. I know everything.

You are unoriginal. Peter already tried this.

Jesus: "This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be dispersed’; (This is what you will do.)

Peter: “Though all may have their faith in you shaken, mine will never be.” (You can’t predict the future, and if you try, I can contradict you with my free will!)

Jesus: “Amen, I say to you, this very night before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” (I will prove you wrong.)

Peter:“Even though I should have to die with you, I will not deny you.” (Never!)

Yet in spite of himself, and of his own free will, Peter did deny Jesus three times.

 

[Love4All]

Now that I have trounced Tyrion’s argument, I wish to make a lesser point: it is actually impossible for God to prove to a limited being that He actually knows everything. The simple reason is that there would be no way for the limited being to verify it, since the limited being does not share God’s omniscience. God could demonstrate knowledge of every grain of sand on the seashore, but that doesn’t rule out the theoretical possibility of unknown grains of sand on some other shore. We, limited beings, could never exhaustively search the universe. It is the same principle as disproving the existence of unicorns.

 

[ngill09]

Now that I have trounced Tyrion’s argument, I wish to make a lesser point: it is actually impossible for God to prove to a limited being that He actually knows everything. The simple reason is that there would be no way for the limited being to verify it, since the limited being does not share God’s omniscience. God could demonstrate knowledge of every grain of sand on the seashore, but that doesn’t rule out the theoretical possibility of unknown grains of sand on some other shore. We, limited beings, could never exhaustively search the universe. It is the same principle as disproving the existence of unicorns.

Ah, but let’s put Tyrion aside for now. Can God Himself know if he’s omniscient?

As Donald Rumsfeld pointed out, there are “known unknowns” and there are “unknown unknowns”. There are things you know that you don’t know and there are things you don’t know that you don’t know.

Can God know that there’s nothing he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know?

(yeah, this is a post)

 

[aemcpa]

Except I do NOT agree to any third party, since I can never be SURE if that third party is not influenced (bribed? threatened? or modified?) by God. The only “testimony” I accept is my own, first hand experience.

If you are so quick to judge God as a liar and a cheat, how can you even trust your own experience against His omnipotence?

 

[Gorgias]

If you are so quick to judge God as a liar and a cheat, how can you even trust your own experience against His omnipotence?

More to the point, why should we believe Tyrion when he tells us, “God said that I would take the course of action ‘X’, but I’ve taken ‘Y’ instead”…?

 

[Ion]

O.K., Tyrion, let’s play.

I predict that you will attempt to select four dice, but you will miscount and actually select only three. You will be so flustered trying to count dice that you will mistake your right hand for your left. You will intend to use your left hand, but it will really be your right. You will try to wait six minutes, but you will underestimate the six minutes and you will actually roll those three dice, with your right hand, in five. I am God. I know everything.

You are unoriginal. Peter already tried this.

Jesus: "This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, for it is written: ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be dispersed’; (This is what you will do.)

Peter: “Though all may have their faith in you shaken, mine will never be.” (You can’t predict the future, and if you try, I can contradict you with my free will!)

Jesus: “Amen, I say to you, this very night before the cock crows, you will deny me three times.” (I will prove you wrong.)

Peter:“Even though I should have to die with you, I will not deny you.” (Never!)

Yet in spite of himself, and of his own free will, Peter did deny Jesus three times.

 

[CandideWest]

Now that I have trounced Tyrion’s argument, I wish to make a lesser point: it is actually impossible for God to prove to a limited being that He actually knows everything. The simple reason is that there would be no way for the limited being to verify it, since the limited being does not share God’s omniscience. God could demonstrate knowledge of every grain of sand on the seashore, but that doesn’t rule out the theoretical possibility of unknown grains of sand on some other shore. We, limited beings, could never exhaustively search the universe. It is the same principle as disproving the existence of unicorns.

One of us has clearly misunderstood Tyrions argument. I though the point he was making is that it is impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. This is because in order for God to demonstrate his omniscience he must be able to correctly answer ANY question asked of him (for which there is a correct answer), and Tyrion has demonstrated that in any matter of free will we must always be free to make decisions contrary to the “correct” answer provided by God.

Thus God CANNOT successfully answer every valid question asked (he may know the answer but cannot state it) thus God cannot demonstrate his own omniscience. This logic seems to work fine and your argument hasn’t touched it as far as I can see, let alone trounced it. Even more so given that in the above post you seem to have agreed with Tyrions conclusion even if you didn’t use the same method.