Double trouble!

[Paddy_Walker]

Sure, but again, that would be a DIFFERENT thought experiment.

Once again, the point of this is that given our free will God is not able to correctly answer the question Tyrion posed. Therefore God cannot demonstrate his omniscience.

no. God correctly answered it. then tyrion changed the question.

 

[CandideWest]

That is what I am saying, yes.

Gotcha, looking back that seems to make sense. Hopefully your clarification should avoid others making this mistake.

Thanks and nice talking to you

 

[CandideWest]

no. God correctly answered it. then tyrion changed the question.

Nope, re-read the question.

It is NOT “what number of dice am I currently intending on rolling” it IS “what will be the result when I do roll them”.

The answer to this question is contingent on Gods prediction. That is the entire point.

 

[Love4All]

Ah, but let’s put Tyrion aside for now. Can God Himself know if he’s omniscient?

As Donald Rumsfeld pointed out, there are “known unknowns” and there are “unknown unknowns”. There are things you know that you don’t know and there are things you don’t know that you don’t know.

Can God know that there’s nothing he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know?

(yeah, this is a post)

Yes. God knows that He is absolutely omniscient. George and John Mark also know that God is absolutely omniscient, since they are His Witnesses.

Remember that God created the heavens and the earth. For God to know the whole universe is simply for Him to know His own Creation. He also knows that there was no Creation at all, until He created it.

 

[Love4All]

One of us has clearly misunderstood Tyrions argument. I though the point he was making is that it is impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. This is because in order for God to demonstrate his omniscience he must be able to correctly answer ANY question asked of him (for which there is a correct answer), and Tyrion has demonstrated that in any matter of free will we must always be free to make decisions contrary to the “correct” answer provided by God.

That is a fallacy. It is no part of free will, to be possessed of imaginary powers, and to catch God by surprise would definitely be an imaginary power. “His Power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy.” Tyrion is foolhardy, and I, in my limited human imagination, have presented at least one plausible scenario whereby God could,

1. Demonstrate His absolute knowledge of the future,
2. Not interfere in the slightest with Tyrion’s free will, and,
3. Rebuke Tyrion in his presumption.

I have also provided an example from Scripture of Jesus demonstrating to Peter, His absolute knowledge of the future, without interfering with Peter’s free will, and rebuking Peter for his presumption in the process. This has been done. But Tyrion pretends to have the power of resurrecting dead horses, because he likes to kick them.

Thus God CANNOT successfully answer every valid question asked (he may know the answer but cannot state it) thus God cannot demonstrate his own omniscience. This logic seems to work fine and your argument hasn’t touched it as far as I can see, let alone trounced it. Even more so given that in the above post you seem to have agreed with Tyrions conclusion even if you didn’t use the same method.

You do not appear to have read my argument. Go back and read it.

 

[Love4All]

Come now Linus is that really the best you have to offer to this discussion? A little ad hominem?

In Linus’s defense, he is not so much arguing as he is shaking dust from his feet.

 

[Love4All]

No, that isn’t the experiment here. Tyrion asked God to predict the result of his future dice roll. Whatever prediction God makes Tyrion employs his free will to make it false. Thus God cannot provide a correct answer.

Tyrion does not have the power to contradict God’s omniscience with his free will. Free will is only for deciding intent.

And you didn’t even read Tyrion’s original post. Go back and read it.

 

[Love4All]

See? It’s asking God to predict a future dice roll.

That isn’t what it says.

Here are the three questions Tyrion in his insolence asks God:

"How many dice will I select?

"With which hand am I going to do the toss?

“When will I do the toss?”

N.B. that NONE of these asks what the roll will be. My guess is that you are so blinded by your agenda, you forget how to read.

 

[Love4All]

it doesn’t really change it. God predicts what numbers tyrion will throw in the future, and they are the numbers tyrion would have thrown had tyrion not changed his mind after he heard God’s prediction. if tyrion had not heard nor asked for God’s prediction then he could not have chosen a different number to the predicted number.
tyrions experiment has two different events, a prediction and then a change of mind after hearing the prediction. there must be a better experiment, one where you don’t choose the result yourself.

You, too, are deeply underestimating God.

 

[Love4All]

tyrion did not tell God that tyrion wanted a prediction for after the point where tyrion changed his mind.

So what? God knew it.

 

[CandideWest]

That is a fallacy. It is no part of free will, to be possessed of imaginary powers, and to catch God by surprise would definitely be an imaginary power. “His Power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy.” Tyrion is foolhardy, and I, in my limited human imagination, have presented at least one plausible scenario whereby God could,

1. Demonstrate His absolute knowledge of the future,
2. Not interfere in the slightest with Tyrion’s free will, and,
3. Rebuke Tyrion in his presumption.

I have also provided an example from Scripture of Jesus demonstrating to Peter, His absolute knowledge of the future, without interfering with Peter’s free will, and rebuking Peter for his presumption in the process. This has been done. But Tyrion pretends to have the power of resurrecting dead horses, because he likes to kick them.

You do not appear to have read my argument. Go back and read it.

No, you demonstrated that in a different situation God could answer a different question.

Unless you are saying that after God said “you’re going to roll two sixes” Tyrion loses his free will to decide to only roll one die (which I don’t believe you are) then your argument doesn’t touch the one that Tyrion presented.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

So what? God knew it.

in that case God predicts tyrion will throw a 1. tyrion has two dice, whether or not he throws away one will not change the outcome. if God predicts tyrion will throw the dice in 5 minutes then tyrion will throw them in 5 minutes.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Nope, re-read the question.

It is NOT “what number of dice am I currently intending on rolling” it IS “what will be the result when I do roll them”.

The answer to this question is contingent on Gods prediction. That is the entire point.

fine. God predicts tyrion will throw a 1. tyrion gets confused and throws away one dice. only realizing his mistake after throwing a 1 on the other dice.

 

[Gorgias]

Nope, re-read the question.

It is NOT “what number of dice am I currently intending on rolling” it IS “what will be the result when I do roll them”.

The answer to this question is contingent on Gods prediction. That is the entire point.

Actually, you should re-read Tyrion’s original post – this is exactly what he’s proposing:

Tyrion:

How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will. If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand. If he says that I will make the toss within the next 5 minutes… then I will wait 6 minutes.

 

[Aloysium]

One of us has clearly misunderstood Tyrions argument. I though the point he was making is that it is impossible for God to demonstrate his omniscience. This is because in order for God to demonstrate his omniscience he must be able to correctly answer ANY question asked of him (for which there is a correct answer), and Tyrion has demonstrated that in any matter of free will we must always be free to make decisions contrary to the “correct” answer provided by God.

Thus God CANNOT successfully answer every valid question asked (he may know the answer but cannot state it) thus God cannot demonstrate his own omniscience. This logic seems to work fine and your argument hasn’t touched it as far as I can see, let alone trounced it. Even more so given that in the above post you seem to have agreed with Tyrions conclusion even if you didn’t use the same method.

Free will exists in the present moment within which we exist at each point in our lives.
In the past we were free to choose. We chose and we know what happened. We no longer have the ability to change those decisions.
Once Tyrion is aware of the future he has lost his free will. His future is determined, and he cannot choose otherwise.
It will happen as the past has happened.
We can choose right here right now, but if we are thrown into the future, we will know what choice we have made.

 

[CandideWest]

fine. God predicts tyrion will throw a 1. tyrion gets confused and throws away one dice. only realizing his mistake after throwing a 1 on the other dice.

So you are saying that as soon as God has made his prediction Tyrion is INCAPABLE of choosing to do differently. He has no free will on the subject? In other words if God predicts Tyrion will roll two sixes then it matters not one whit that Tryion decides he’s only going to roll one die, he will have NO CHOICE but to roll two dice and score two sixes? No matter how many times he asks the question, no matter how hard he tries to do differently he will without fail always roll what God predicted he would…

So he reaches out to pick up a single die, but he finds he cannot avoid picking up two, he tries to put one in his pocket to avoid rolling it but can’t do it, he decides he’s going to wait and hour before throwing them but after the 5 minutes God predicted he finds he casts them on the table anyway… And the result is two sixes.

You understand that you are saying that God’s prediction removes Tyrions free will right? Does this not concern you?

 

[Love4All]

No, you demonstrated that in a different situation God could answer a different question.

Unless you are saying that after God said “you’re going to roll two sixes” Tyrion loses his free will to decide to only roll one die (which I don’t believe you are) then your argument doesn’t touch the one that Tyrion presented.

Formalize Tyrion’s argument and present it, please. If we are going to use logic, we can’t be relying on slippery words.

 

[Love4All]

in that case God predicts tyrion will throw a 1. tyrion has two dice, whether or not he throws away one will not change the outcome. if God predicts tyrion will throw the dice in 5 minutes then tyrion will throw them in 5 minutes.

By simple definition of foreknowledge, that which is foreknown does definitely come to pass.

 

[Love4All]

So you are saying that as soon as God has made his prediction Tyrion is INCAPABLE of choosing to do differently. He has no free will on the subject? In other words if God predicts Tyrion will roll two sixes then it matters not one whit that Tryion decides he’s only going to roll one die, he will have NO CHOICE but to roll two dice and score two sixes? No matter how many times he asks the question, no matter how hard he tries to do differently he will without fail always roll what God predicted he would…

So he reaches out to pick up a single die, but he finds he cannot avoid picking up two, he tries to put one in his pocket to avoid rolling it but can’t do it, he decides he’s going to wait and hour before throwing them but after the 5 minutes God predicted he finds he casts them on the table anyway… And the result is two sixes.

You understand that you are saying that God’s prediction removes Tyrions free will right? Does this not concern you?

Only if actions and decisions are indiscernible.

 

[CandideWest]

Actually, you should re-read Tyrion’s original post – this is exactly what he’s proposing:

Er… Did you miss the words directly before the text you selected? “Can he Predict and reveal the result”.

I fear you may have misread his post, there is nothing in Tyrions OP about his current intentions at the time of asking the question in there. He says he will decide on the number of dice to roll AFTER God has made his prediction. Again, that is why this works.

He could say to God “what number of dice am I thinking about rolling” but that is a trivial question. Asking “what number of dice WILL I decide to roll” or as per the OP “what will be the result” successfully demonstrates Tyrions point.