Double trouble!

[CandideWest]

Only if actions and decisions are indiscernible.

Not at all, in fact I’ve dealt with that in my post above.

 

[Love4All]

Not at all, in fact I’ve dealt with that in my post above.

So you are saying that as soon as God has made his prediction Tyrion is INCAPABLE of choosing to do differently.

No. Tyrion is incapable of DOING differently. Because, actions and decisions are in fact discernibly different.

He has no free will on the subject?

He has free will, since free will by definition applies only to choices, not to actions.

In other words if God predicts Tyrion will roll two sixes then it matters not one whit that Tryion decides he’s only going to roll one die, he will have NO CHOICE but to roll two dice and score two sixes?

If God is looking at the future, he is looking at what will happen. By definition of “the future.”

Reality is what it is. Tyrion can’t change that.

No matter how many times he asks the question, no matter how hard he tries to do differently he will without fail always roll what God predicted he would…

Of course. But that isn’t the point.

So he reaches out to pick up a single die, but he finds he cannot avoid picking up two, he tries to put one in his pocket to avoid rolling it but can’t do it, he decides he’s going to wait and hour before throwing them but after the 5 minutes God predicted he finds he casts them on the table anyway… And the result is two sixes.

You understand that you are saying that God’s prediction removes Tyrions free will right? Does this not concern you?

Only if actions and decisions are indiscernible, which they are not.

 

[CandideWest]

No. Tyrion is incapable of DOING differently. Because, actions and decisions are in fact discernibly different.

He has free will, since free will by definition applies only to choices, not to actions.

If God is looking at the future, he is looking at what will happen. By definition of “the future.”

Reality is what it is. Tyrion can’t change that.

Of course. But that isn’t the point.

Only if actions and decisions are indiscernible, which they are not.

So you are saying that Tyrion would retain his “free will” with regards to “choosing” what to do, but his body would refuse to comply… As per my example above. He would reach out to pick up one die and his hand would pick up two, etc even if after hearing the prediction he decided he was not going to pick up any dice at all and instead just sit on his hands, he would observe his hand reaching out and picking up two dice despite himself.

If that is your proposed solution then I think you may have a different understanding of the term “free will” to me. For me Tyrion being forced to watch unwilling while his hands act out Gods prediction against his will would be removing his free will.

 

[Love4All]

So you are saying that Tyrion would retain his “free will” with regards to “choosing” what to do, but his body would refuse to comply… As per my example above. He would reach out to pick up one die and his hand would pick up two, etc even if after hearing the prediction he decided he was not going to pick up any dice at all and instead just sit on his hands, he would observe his hand reaching out and picking up two dice despite himself.

If that is your proposed solution then I think you may have a different understanding of the term “free will” to me. For me Tyrion being forced to watch unwilling while his hands act out Gods prediction against his will would be removing his free will.

Free will is for choosing love or hate. Period.

So to make a proper scenario demonstrating the absurdity of Tyrion’s position, God will predict that Tyrion will save his five year old daughter from a burning building, even risking his own life in the process. That will be Tyrion’s free will decision. God predicts it to Tyrion’s face, and then when Tyrion arrives home, he finds that his house is on fire and his five year old daughter is screaming out the window, “Daddy! Please save me!!!”

Now Tyrion has a real free will decision to make, that will likely determine where he spends eternity. Does he follow through with his plan to prove God incorrect, or, does he save his daughter?

It depends which is the more compelling motive: his love for his daughter, or his hatred of his concept of God.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

So you are saying that as soon as God has made his prediction Tyrion is INCAPABLE of choosing to do differently. He has no free will on the subject? In other words if God predicts Tyrion will roll two sixes then it matters not one whit that Tryion decides he’s only going to roll one die, he will have NO CHOICE but to roll two dice and score two sixes? No matter how many times he asks the question, no matter how hard he tries to do differently he will without fail always roll what God predicted he would…

So he reaches out to pick up a single die, but he finds he cannot avoid picking up two, he tries to put one in his pocket to avoid rolling it but can’t do it, he decides he’s going to wait and hour before throwing them but after the 5 minutes God predicted he finds he casts them on the table anyway… And the result is two sixes.

You understand that you are saying that God’s prediction removes Tyrions free will right? Does this not concern you?

it doesn’t remove tyrions free will at all. as you say tyrion chose to do differently, that was tyrion exercising his freewill, but for whatever reason another thing happens.

look at it this way, if you like.
tyrion sends a fella on his time machine 1 hour into the future to see which way the dice will fall. the fella returns back through time and says sadly to tyrion, ‘you’re going to throw a two’. so tyrion thinking hes smart picks up 3 dice and throws them. unfortunately he throws one of the dice out the window by mistake and its caught by a seagull and flown away. of course when tyrion looks back down at the table he sees that he has thrown two 1s. and the fella looks up again sadly at tyrion and says ‘i told you so’.

 

[CandideWest]

Free will is for choosing love or hate. Period.

Come now, are you really saying that any decision is between “love and hate”? So when I decided to eat curry for lunch instead of a sandwich today did I choose love or hate?

The rest of your post was WILDLY off topic (having nothing to do with this thought experiment) so requires no reply.

 

[CandideWest]

it doesn’t remove tyrions free will at all. as you say tyrion chose to do differently, that was tyrion exercising his freewill, but for whatever reason another thing happens.

look at it this way, if you like.
tyrion sends a fella on his time machine 1 hour into the future to see which way the dice will fall. the fella returns back through time and says sadly to tyrion, ‘you’re going to throw a two’. so tyrion thinking hes smart picks up 3 dice and throws them. unfortunately he throws one of the dice out the window by mistake and its caught by a seagull and flown away. of course when tyrion looks back down at the table he sees that he has thrown two 1s. and the fella looks up again sadly at tyrion and says ‘i told you so’.

Right, so you are saying that Tyrion is INCAPABLE of doing something contrary to Gods prediction. So in other words even if he chooses to sit on his hands he will despite his best efforts still reach out, pick up those dice and throw a pair of sixes.

Again, your solution is removing his free will.

 

[Love4All]

Come now, are you really saying that any decision is between “love and hate”? So when I decided to eat curry for lunch instead of a sandwich today did I choose love or hate?

That wasn’t free will.

The rest of your post was WILDLY off topic (having nothing to do with this thought experiment) so requires no reply.

If you wish to clearly formalize what you perceive as Tyrion’s argument, I will show you the flaw. Otherwise, as you say, no reply is required.

 

[CandideWest]

That wasn’t free will.

Ahhh… So what was it exactly?

Are you saying I didn’t have a free choice or are you just personally defining free will to be about a tiny subset of choices?

In any case, your choice to define “free will” in your own special way has no impact on the subject matter here. Either Tyrion has a choice whether or not to behave in the manner God predicted (in which case he has free will and his argument works) or he has no choice whether to comply with Gods prediction or not in which case he has no free will (or whatever term you use for the ability to make choices if you are defining "free will to mean something different).

If you wish to clearly formalize what you perceive as Tyrion’s argument, I will show you the flaw. Otherwise, as you say, no reply is required.

I’m not very good at writing out arguments in formal logic structure. If you are struggling with the way he’s written it at present I’ll break his argument down into simple steps for you. But to be honest I thought it was pretty simple even as presented so I’m not sure if there will be much ground gained there.

Let me know if you’d like me to try though.

 

[Gricken]

Or god could just refuse to answer the test

 

[Love4All]

Ahhh… So what was it exactly?

Are you saying I didn’t have a free choice or are you just personally defining free will to be about a tiny subset of choices?

In any case, your choice to define “free will” in your own special way has no impact on the subject matter here. Either Tyrion has a choice whether or not to behave in the manner God predicted (in which case he has free will and his argument works) or he has no choice whether to comply with Gods prediction or not in which case he has no free will (or whatever term you use for the ability to make choices if you are defining "free will to mean something different).

I’m not very good at writing out arguments in formal logic structure. If you are struggling with the way he’s written it at present I’ll break his argument down into simple steps for you. But to be honest I thought it was pretty simple even as presented so I’m not sure if there will be much ground gained there.

Let me know if you’d like me to try though.

I’d like you to try. Thanks!

 

[Love4All]

(Love4: “that wasn’t free will.”)

Ahhh… So what was it exactly?

The effect of your preference.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Right, so you are saying that Tyrion is INCAPABLE of doing something contrary to Gods prediction. So in other words even if he chooses to sit on his hands he will despite his best efforts still reach out, pick up those dice and throw a pair of sixes.

Again, your solution is removing his free will.

i’ve just told you it isn’t removing his free will. if tyrion wants to sit on his hands God will predict that tyrion will not throw the dice. i don’t see the mystery, God is acting from the point of view of omniscience as one who has seen the future and so the past and present decisions of tyrion naturally lead to whatever the future happens to be.

 

[Aloysium]

free will exists in the creative moment that is one’s finite present
this finite moment rests on God’s infinite moment in which all creation emerges
if one connects with That one is outside the moment one decided and one’s free will is gone
one is looking at what has happened just as you do when you look at the past

what do people think it will be like seeing God face to face
you do understand Who God is don’t you

 

[Tyrion]

If that is your proposed solution then I think you may have a different understanding of the term “free will” to me. For me Tyrion being forced to watch unwilling while his hands act out Gods prediction against his will would be removing his free will.

It has happened many years ago that I had a conversation with someone - on this board. I asked why is it that “God always supports the free will of the rapist over the free will of the one being raped?”. The answer was so incredibly idiotic that it simply took my breath away. The respondent said that the free will of the girl being gang-raped is in no way impaired, since she is totally “free” to want/wish/will away her predicament, it is only her ability which is curtailed. The respondent said that only the freedom to make a decision is what matters, the ability to act on that decision is irrelevant. So I asked why doesn’t God simply take away the rapist ability to carry out his wish… after all his decision would still be free, only his ability to act on his “will” would be missing. Guess what? There was no answer.

This same nonsense keeps coming back year after year. There is always a non-thinking nincompoop who will use the same “argument”… so very sad! As Einstein (allegedly) said: “There are two thing which are infinite… the universe and human stupidity”… and added “but I am not sure about the universe”.

 

[CandideWest]

i’ve just told you it isn’t removing his free will. if tyrion wants to sit on his hands God will predict that tyrion will not throw the dice. i don’t see the mystery, God is acting from the point of view of omniscience as one who has seen the future and so the past and present decisions of tyrion naturally lead to whatever the future happens to be.

Ok, lets go through this step at a time. God has made the prediction that Tyrion will roll two sixes in the next minute.

Tyrion responds by choosing to sit on his hands and not touch the dice at all for the next hour.

Either
a). contrary to his choice to sit on his hands Tyrion throws the dice and rolls two sixes (as per God’s prediction but counter to his free will).

b). Tyrion sits on his hands for the entire two minutes and doesn’t touch the dice at all (as per his free will but counter to God’s prediction).

 

[Tyrion]

it doesn’t remove tyrions free will at all. as you say tyrion chose to do differently, that was tyrion exercising his freewill, but for whatever reason another thing happens.

look at it this way, if you like.
tyrion sends a fella on his time machine 1 hour into the future to see which way the dice will fall. the fella returns back through time and says sadly to tyrion, ‘you’re going to throw a two’. so tyrion thinking hes smart picks up 3 dice and throws them. unfortunately he throws one of the dice out the window by mistake and its caught by a seagull and flown away. of course when tyrion looks back down at the table he sees that he has thrown two 1s. and the fella looks up again sadly at tyrion and says ‘i told you so’.

No, you are wrong. I can simply not do any tosses at all… don’t try to “outsmart” me. The knowledge of the future is just as problematic as traveling back into the past.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Ok, lets go through this step at a time. God has made the prediction that Tyrion will roll two sixes in the next minute.

Tyrion responds by choosing to sit on his hands and not touch the dice at all for the next hour.

Either
a). contrary to his choice to sit on his hands Tyrion throws the dice and rolls two sixes (as per God’s prediction but counter to his free will).

b). Tyrion sits on his hands for the entire two minutes and doesn’t touch the dice at all (as per his free will but counter to God’s prediction).

why would God predict that tyrion was going to throw two sixes if tyrion was not going to throw the dice?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

You are given the dice. Ask God how many times will I throw and what will I throw. He says 3 dice - triple threes. That’s what happens. You go to throw again to prove him wrong and your arms fall off - TaDaaaaaa! Free will is preserved.

 

[Tyrion]

This doesn’t seem to really take us anywhere though as I don’t know of anyone who claims that God CAN demonstrate his omniscience. Surely that makes the point rather moot?

You are correct. However, there is a different point to this whole problem. That is why I chose the title “double trouble”.

God is supposed to be also “omnipotent” - where omnipotence means that God can do anything that is not a logical contradiction. And there is nothing logically problematic about predicting a future action - so God should be able to do that. But - as the problem shows - God cannot do a simple prediction, since it would allow us to invalidate that prediction. As such it is not only God’s omniscience is problematic, but also his omnipotence.