Z
zro_x
Guest
Right. And anyway, I actually doubt that needing to always tell the truth is one of God’s necessary properties. I was just considering all the possibilities.
- Status
C
CandideWest
Guest
Incorrect, again the key is to read the post you are replying to. This is covered here
"i get to choose the result of the coin flip "
So you predicted “heads” the result came out “tails”. So your prediction was wrong.
Er… now i fear you may not be reading your own posts - you said "i call heads " and “the result is tails” and you conclude that you have “predicted the correct outcome”
Hopefully I don’t need to explain your error there?
C
CandideWest
Guest
T
tdgesq
Guest
It may not be necessary for a philosophical conception of god, but theologically it is a dogmatic requirement for Catholics.
Z
zro_x
Guest
source?
P
Paddy_Walker
Guest
not at all. if only calling were enough to make it so, but it is not. i called heads, but you say the coin lands on tails. so calling it is not enough to make it happen.
i’m afraid that, as God, i am necessary to make your call come true. otherwise it just would not happen.
so yes, i know the result before you do, my previous post explains this in more detail.
T
tdgesq
Guest
One of the attributes of God is that he is truth. The First Vatican Council teaches that:
“God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever be in opposition to truth.”
“we believe to be true what He has revealed,
· not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason,
· but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.”
These are de fide dogmatic statements of the Vatican council; the highest grade of theological certainity possible and something that all Catholics must believe.
Edit: For some reason the links are broken on the original I sent.
Z
zro_x
Guest
hmmm… I wonder how the church reconciles this with the bible quotes Candide referenced.
T
tdgesq
Guest
It’s a matter of mode of interpretation. The way the writers of the scriptural books (especially the Old Testament) express the truths they received through inspiration shouldn’t be confused with the actual content. I have no doubt that it appeared to some of them that God directly caused certain scriptural figures to be deceived, even though that isn’t what they literally say. To some degree God is a necessary condition for every human act, even evil acts. It doesn’t mean that God desired or was a proximate cause of those acts.
C
CandideWest
Guest
you still need to read the post you are replying to i’m afraid.
"i get to CHOOSE the result of the coin flip "
so you predicted heads, the result was tails.
I’m not sure why you are finding this so hard to understand. Do you understand the concept of something being “contingent”?
D
davidv
Guest
Your logic is fallacious. Your conclusion (“Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic”) is a non sequitur. Lack of proof is not proof of the contradictory.Let’s see two alleged attributes of God: omnipotence and omniscience. The current question is: “Can God prove his omniscience?”. In other words, is it within God’s “omnipotence” to really prove that he knows what free agents will do sometime in the future? (It is future only for us…) Of course God may simply say that he knows what I will do at any time in the future. But I am a “nasty” skeptic, and will ask if he can prove what he says?
As such I offer the following experiment. I will select a few dice, and will toss them sometime in the future. Can God predict and reveal the result? How many dice will I select? With which hand am I going to do the toss? When will I do the toss? Of course, as soon as I hear the prediction, I will do something else - as long as God does not “tinker” with my free will.If God says that I will select 3 dice, then I will select 1, or 2, or 4, etc… anything but 3. If he says that I will make the toss with my right hand… then I will do it with my left hand.
Now, of course this is all contingent upon God “playing” the game. If he refuses to participate, then he admits that he cannot “prove” his so-called and assumed “omniscience”. And that refutes God’s omnipotence. He is unable to prove such a simple assertion. Moreover, even if one accepts God’s word without proof, then it is obvious that God’s omniscience is contingent upon NOT revealing his knowledge. (Which makes God contingent.)
Either God’s omnipotence or omniscience or both are problematic.Can anyone refute this logic?
Z
zro_x
Guest
This actually brings up a lot of questions about how God opperates. I’m going to start a thread on the subject, since the topic doesn’t really fall under this thread.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
I think you are being a little bit too flipping cute here.
“Outcomes” by definition have already happened. And your… cough selection takes place AFTER the toss.
But, I’ll play.
OK I’ve made my prediction.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
Have you tossed the coin yet CandideWest?
A
aemcpa
Guest
The coin isn’t tossed so much as it’s placed heads up or tails up after you’ve stated your prediction.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
I have called the result already.
Now all I need you to do is reveal the “result” of the toss which you say will be the opposite of what I predicted.
Lets see.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
Yes please! You really must do that.
We cant let people mistakenly think God is compelled to act in some way against His will.
We have to explain those bible verses and the false idea of God somehow being subject to imperatives.
C
CandideWest
Guest
You have to make your call first (for clarity, making your call involves you telling me what you predict the result will be). Only then can I select the result.
(Otherwise the game wouldn’t be rigged and it wouldn’t be a useable representation of Tyrions thought experiment.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
I HAVE made my prediction.
It’s locked in. I called it.
It’s locked in. I called it.
L
Lion_IRC
Guest
Now toss the coin.
- Status