Double trouble!

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free will requires an experience of the moment;
in this moment, we make decisions that will affect our future

creation takes place in the moment

all moments are where God sits
in God’s eternal now, the creation of all existence is happening

He is aware of it all because it is out of His act of being, that all being happens
all moments, all decisions, all things

God knows the decision you make because it is happening in your now
He doesn’t know it before you make it;
He knows it because all nows are contained in His eternal Now

all time is in Him while He remains beyond it
That is experiencing of information and constructing knowledge that requires the time. The decision is made on the instant, at the moment either you chose A or B. I believe that the state of mind that is responsible for free will (if there is any free will) has to be in absolute chaos so we could make the decision at the moment. That is the only way that we could connect our state of mind with God’s state of mind, resolve the problem between the free will and Omniscience.
 
I agree that omnisicence needs to be refined to remove the conflict between our free will and omnisicence of God. My question from you is what you mean with “wait” in the above paragraph for God which is in the state of timeless. I mean our decision is not known until we make the decision based on our free will which means that God also does not know it. In another hand we have the concept of time that we are restricted to it. This means that God will have the knowledge about our decision when the decision is made which add another dilemma to the previous problem which state that the state of knowledge of God is subject of the time which means that God cannot be in the state of timeless! This conflict can only be resolve if we either accept that we have not free will (that I don’t have any logical prove for it) or we are separated from God (God dose not know anything from our state of our being). Simply you cannot fuse two entities one timeless and the another subject of the time at the same place.
You are incorrect when you say that God doesn’t know your future free will decision. He most certainly does. He knew your decision before you know you would be deciding anything!

There is no dilemma. God knows everything. Note the punctuation mark at the end of the previous sentence.
 
Ok, now then for this to be true i believe that for all possible worlds

~<>(T(B) /\ G(A) )
It is not possible for Tyrion to choose B AND God to have predicted A

Correct?
This follows from the law of non-contradiction, yes.
 
you didn’t ask me; but yes, it is not possible for Tyrion to choose B
he may have intended to do so
but if God knows it happened, it happened
and whatever Tyrion had intended
A will happen

Let me give you a scenario:
God knows that Tyrion will choose A and knows that telling him is necessary for Tyrion to be saved
God comes to Tyrion in a dream and tells him, “You will choose A”
Gazing into God’s eyes, Tyrion recognizes the compassion of our Lord
within which Tyrion sees himself
inside Tyrion, an emotional knot fashioned through years of suffering, sin, despair, failure and anger, begins to unfurl
Tyrion understands his own broken desire to please God,
he sees his challenge to God as an acting out,
an expression of his hurt and frustration, feeling that he had been forgotten and neglected by Him, when all He wanted was His love
God’s telling Tyrion that he will choose A, is not only a prediction but a command to Tyrion of what he must do
peace envelops Tyrion; he is free, free to demonstrate his love for God
He chooses A
👍 I love you, man!!!
 
Love4All would like this conveyed to you, Tyrion.
Kind of you. But why should I care about something that has no more credibility than any other fairy tale?
I agree that omnisicence needs to be refined to remove the conflict between our free will and omnisicence of God. My question from you is what you mean with “wait” in the above paragraph for God which is in the state of timeless. I mean our decision is not known until we make the decision based on our free will which means that God also does not know it. In another hand we have the concept of time that we are restricted to it. This means that God will have the knowledge about our decision when the decision is made which add another dilemma to the previous problem which state that the state of knowledge of God is subject of the time which means that God cannot be in the state of timeless! This conflict can only be resolve if we either accept that we have not free will (that I don’t have any logical prove for it) or we are separated from God (God dose not know anything from our state of our being). Simply you cannot fuse two entities one timeless and the another subject of the time at the same place.
This is an excellent analysis. Since God is assumed to be “active” (Actus Purus), and any action means a change, and change cannot happen without a “before” and “after” - from this it follows that God cannot be “timeless”. His own “time” has nothing to do with our own time (which is just one aspect of the space-time-energy-matter), but it must exist - as long as God is not a “static” being. After all, the proposed attributes are simply based upon empty speculations, and we know that most of the speculations turn out to be false. In this case the two assumptions: 1) God is active and 2) God is timeless are mutually exclusive.
 
Why additional elaboration would constitute a significant difference between the two scenarios is anybody’s guess, but as it turns out no additional elaboration is necessary. That one logically impossible state of affairs includes contradictory physical characteristics and the other does not is certainly a difference, but not one that matters. Both scenarios set forth a logically impossible state of affairs; or do you disagree?

And this is why in my earlier post to you I made the oblique reference to Asimov’s work not providing insight into the ontological probabilities of competing theories of time. McTaggart concludes that there is no such thing as time, as he finds the A series to be internally inconsistent. A theorists disagree, and B theorists also disagree in that time does exist but only as relations to events on the timeline, ie. time only appears to pass to us but does not in reality. Then among B theorists you have Eternalists who claim that all objects past and future exist as a four-dimensional block, but we cannot view them because of the spacetime position in which we find ourselves.

First we would all have to accept a Presentism A-theory of time, which no one here has obliged themselves to do. Even then, to realize this logically impossible event is dependent upon God providing the questioner (Tyrion) with the information about what Tyrion would have chosen. It is only with this information that Tyrion can now “change the future.” But to do so Tyrion must choose an answer inconsistent with God’s. We have the following conditional proposition: If God presents Tyrion with an answer and if Tyrion chooses to give an inconsistent answer, then God cannot answer the question correctly. In that instance, it is logically impossible for God to correctly answer the question - made impossible by the very fact that God gave Tyrion the information in the first instance.

That is exactly what B-theory Eternalists hypothesize - that there is no future or past, just a four-dimensional spacetime manifold block where all objects exist. If they are correct, then there may be a book that exists at some point in spacetime with an author’s name on it, although we may not have present knowledge of it. In any case, omniscience can still exist under a Presentism A-theory.

Now I get to use an example from Asimov’s first Foundation book that actually has some applicability. There the “psychohistorians” create a very complex algorithm that can accurately p(name removed by moderator)oint the unfolding of human events. God being the creator of the universe and everything in it, as well as having an infinite intellect, can accurately predict all events that occur in the cosmos, whether the event has “happened yet” or not - well, unless it is logically impossible for him to do so.

This is very bizarre reasoning: using a possible worlds thought experiment that results in a logical paradox to prove the ontological status of of future events. The only conclusion that can be reached is that God is not able to give Tyrion the accurate answer under the conditions specified. But, as you put it in a recent post, let’s get down to business.

The only way that the thought experiment works is if God agrees to give an answer about what Tyrion will do. Let’s assume that if God gives an answer it allows Tyrion to “change the future” such that God couldn’t foresee it - making God not omniscient. Could God do this? No, because God can’t do anything that would compromise his omniscience. It’s akin to asking if God can lie or if God can be unjust. So while I think you’ve made a number of questionable assumptions about the nature of time, even if your conclusion is true, you still haven’t proven what you set out to prove.
I am sorry, but I am about to leave to the airport, so I am unable to make a detailed reply today. Since I am not certain what kind of internet connection I wll have on my vacation, please forgive me, if my reply will not be immediate. In the meantime, you might wish to read my replies to Gorgias, if you have not done yet.

One short reflection upon your last paragraph: “God’s omniscience is being questioned here (along with the definiton of omniscience in general)”. It will be simply a hypothesis, once omniscience is adequately defined and as such it cannot be used as an argument, too. You also propose that “God cannot lie, or cannot be unjust” and those premises are vehemently rejected as well.

But first an acceptable definition of omniscience needs to be worked out.
 
I am sorry, but I am about to leave to the airport, so I am unable to make a detailed reply today. Since I am not certain what kind of internet connection I wll have on my vacation, please forgive me, if my reply will not be immediate. In the meantime, you might wish to read my replies to Gorgias, if you have not done yet.

One short reflection upon your last paragraph: “God’s omniscience is being questioned here (along with the definiton of omniscience in general)”. It will be simply a hypothesis, once omniscience is adequately defined and as such it cannot be used as an argument, too. You also propose that “God cannot lie, or cannot be unjust” and those premises are vehemently rejected as well.

But first an acceptable definition of omniscience needs to be worked out.
Acceptable to you, you mean. Meaning that you get to pick and choose a “Secular” definition and try to apply to a question about the catholic god.
 
I can accept that God is NOT limited by our time, that God is OUTSIDE our time.

What does NOT follow is that all our time is available for examination. And it is demonstrated by the movie analogy!!! 🙂 Even though you (the watcher of the movie) are outside of the timeline of the movie, the events within the movie are NOT available for you UNTIL they actually roll down on the silver screen!!
That’s a reasonable objection – but that’s not what the intent of the movie analogy is! It’s not that God is sitting somewhere, up ‘there’, watching time play itself out down ‘here’: the intent of the movie analogy is to put God in the position of seeing all of the movie at once! Take your pick of ways to visualize it: either God has access to all of the movie (e.g., a movie reel that’s been unrolled and placed on the sidewalk) or God ‘sees’ the movie in the same way we do once the movie’s been played for us (i.e., we know the events of the whole movie). Either way, we’re not saying that God is watching a performance of the movie; rather, we’re saying that God has access to the whole movie all at once.
the “outside” observer is unaware of these mishaps UNTIL they actually happen. The analogy actually proves my point. Even if God exists outside our time, only those elements are available to examined, which already transpired.
No – that’s not at all what’s going on here: we’re not positing that a being outside of time experiences it as we do.

In fact, if that were the intent of the movie analogy, it would be logically untenable, since it would mean that time itself was outside of time! (That is, if God had to ‘wait’ for our time to play itself out, then that would imply that there was some sort of time in God’s context in and through which God could ‘wait’ and ‘watch’.) That’s not at all what’s being suggested here.
As the “movie analogy” shows, this is not correct. But, even if it were correct, it would bring up an even more serious problem. If the future already would exist, then it would be unchangable (like the past) and therefore our free will would be jeopardized.
There we go – this is the point where the analogy falls apart. Movies are deterministic: no matter how many times you watch Indiana Jones, the ark of the covenant still ends up in a storage warehouse. However, that’s not what we’re suggesting is the way that time works. I really do suggest you read up on the notion of free will and foreknowledge – this is exactly the problem that is discussed in that context (i.e., how foreknowledge can be thought of in a way that does not thwart free will). I understand that you’re unwilling to accept the notion, but being unwilling to examine the considerations that lead philosophers to this conclusion is rather self-limiting.
 
But first an acceptable definition of omniscience needs to be worked out.
You can call a cheeseburger a “taco” all you want, but it’s still going to be a cheeseburger.

Ask a Catholic question, get a Catholic Answer. If you don’t like it…tough. 🤷 The burden of your belief or disbelief does not rest upon our shoulders. You’ve been given your answer, responded with snide commentary befitting a particularly nasty little 2nd-grade bully, and looked down your nose at anything that doesn’t fit your woefully tiny worldview.

I’m done with this thread…you’ve wasted enough of my time, just by having to read through the wordy tripe you’ve responded with. Good day.
 
This is an excellent analysis. Since God is assumed to be “active” (Actus Purus)
Whoops! Hold on a second! You’ve misunderstood the notion of God as ‘actus purus’; perhaps your Latin needs a bit of brushing up…!

The term ‘actus purus’ doesn’t mean ‘pure activity’, as you seem to have understood it (since you say that God is ‘active’); rather, it means ‘pure act’. These two are not the same. When Aquinas uses this term, he’s making a distinction with the notion of ‘potentiality’. You are right now on vacation – but you have the potential to be back at your home. You are right now reading this post – but you have the potentiality to be making a ham sandwich. What Aquinas means when he says that God is ‘pure act’ is that in God there is no potentiality: in other words, God is never ‘active’, because being active implies exactly what you presume to assert about God: that God changes, and that God has ‘before’ and ‘after’ states, and that God exists in some sort of ‘time’ (that might be outside of our own temporal state).
the two assumptions: 1) God is active and 2) God is timeless are mutually exclusive.
You are right! These two are mutually exclusive! That’s why (1) is something that isn’t being asserted about God. 😉
 
LOL…!

See, Love4All? I don’t wanna say ‘I told ya so’, but… 😉
Do you think this is outside of God’s Plan? Did God not know, with infallible foreknowledge, Tyrion’s reaction to seeing my post?

It is sufficient. He has answered the question. He has read the Scriptures I posted, or if he hasn’t, he has only himself to blame. Whether he has or has not read those Scripture, my duty to him as God’s Prophet is finished for the time being. Whether he has read the warning and dismissed it after reading it, or dismissed it out of hand without even bothering to read it, what is that to me? I have warned him.

Tyrion’s answer is, “Yes, God, as you already knew in your “infallible foreknowledge,” I will still defy you.”

That is the question God asked Tyrion; that is Tyrion’s answer. Everything is proceeding exactly according to God’s Plan. Stick around!
 
That’s a reasonable objection – but that’s not what the intent of the movie analogy is! It’s not that God is sitting somewhere, up ‘there’, watching time play itself out down ‘here’: the intent of the movie analogy is to put God in the position of seeing all of the movie at once! Take your pick of ways to visualize it: either God has access to all of the movie (e.g., a movie reel that’s been unrolled and placed on the sidewalk) or God ‘sees’ the movie in the same way we do once the movie’s been played for us (i.e., we know the events of the whole movie). Either way, we’re not saying that God is watching a performance of the movie; rather, we’re saying that God has access to the whole movie all at once.

No – that’s not at all what’s going on here: we’re not positing that a being outside of time experiences it as we do.

In fact, if that were the intent of the movie analogy, it would be logically untenable, since it would mean that time itself was outside of time! (That is, if God had to ‘wait’ for our time to play itself out, then that would imply that there was some sort of time in God’s context in and through which God could ‘wait’ and ‘watch’.) That’s not at all what’s being suggested here.

There we go – this is the point where the analogy falls apart. Movies are deterministic: no matter how many times you watch Indiana Jones, the ark of the covenant still ends up in a storage warehouse. However, that’s not what we’re suggesting is the way that time works. I really do suggest you read up on the notion of free will and foreknowledge – this is exactly the problem that is discussed in that context (i.e., how foreknowledge can be thought of in a way that does not thwart free will). I understand that you’re unwilling to accept the notion, but being unwilling to examine the considerations that lead philosophers to this conclusion is rather self-limiting.
My suggestion here is that the movie analogy in fact falls apart. Tyrion is intellectually beyond it. So why continue to attempt to utilize such a leaky vessel? Scrap it!
 
You can call a cheeseburger a “taco” all you want, but it’s still going to be a cheeseburger.

Ask a Catholic question, get a Catholic Answer. If you don’t like it…tough. 🤷 The burden of your belief or disbelief does not rest upon our shoulders. You’ve been given your answer, responded with snide commentary befitting a particularly nasty little 2nd-grade bully, and looked down your nose at anything that doesn’t fit your woefully tiny worldview.

I’m done with this thread…you’ve wasted enough of my time, just by having to read through the wordy tripe you’ve responded with. Good day.
While Tyrion’s sin of pride is what it is, you cannot thereby dismiss his valid logical argument. God is omnipotent and can and will defeat Tyrion’s intellectual pride, but failed rebuttals are failed rebuttals. God can be known with certainty by the light of Reason. This does not imply that any argument advanced by a Catholic automatically succeeds, even though Catholics have the Truth and Tyrion has only his intellect. The human intellect is designed to apprehend truth, and Tyrion can learn just as well as anyone, but not if those presuming to teach him have no arguments that touch the substance of his.

The conundrum Tyrion has presented you is real. It isn’t going to go away by your fallacious appeal to the Authority of God’s Church. You accept God’s Church Authority; that is commendable in you, that is wisdom in you, and that wisdom in you comes from God. Tyrion’s intellectual gifts, likewise come from God. Tyrion abuses those intellectual gifts in him. Are you yourself not abusing God’s wisdom in you, by failing to address Tyrion’s actual argument, and instead appealing to an Authority that, for all its legitimacy, Tyrion does not recognize?
 
Whoops! Hold on a second! You’ve misunderstood the notion of God as ‘actus purus’; perhaps your Latin needs a bit of brushing up…!

The term ‘actus purus’ doesn’t mean ‘pure activity’, as you seem to have understood it (since you say that God is ‘active’); rather, it means ‘pure act’. These two are not the same. When Aquinas uses this term, he’s making a distinction with the notion of ‘potentiality’. You are right now on vacation – but you have the potential to be back at your home. You are right now reading this post – but you have the potentiality to be making a ham sandwich. What Aquinas means when he says that God is ‘pure act’ is that in God there is no potentiality: in other words, God is never ‘active’, because being active implies exactly what you presume to assert about God: that God changes, and that God has ‘before’ and ‘after’ states, and that God exists in some sort of ‘time’ (that might be outside of our own temporal state).

You are right! These two are mutually exclusive! That’s why (1) is something that isn’t being asserted about God. 😉
Sorry, no. God is not only Pure Act; also, God acts. God acts without changing. Human inability to grasp the non-contradictory nature of that statement does not in fact make the statement a self-contradiction.

Consider the nature of material energy. Is it particles, or is it waves? Our experience in the world leads us to believe those two descriptions are mutually exclusive. Particles can be carriers of waves. The oscillatory motion of collections of particles manifests to us as waves. Waves can be carried by particles. The waves we observe are the sum of motion of particles in relation to one another. But for a solitary entity to be both a particle and a wave at the same time, is preposterous. And yet, the wave/particle duality of material energy is an accepted fact of physics. Quanta can be observed behaving in the manner expected of particles, and quanta can be observed behaving in the manner expected of waves. My take on it is that they are neither particles nor waves in the classical sense — they are quanta. They behave consistently as quanta. The behavior of quanta, the nature of quanta, is unlike any observable to which we might make a proper analogy. So we settle for wave/particle duality.

Similarly, with God. God is Pure Act — unchanging and unchangeable. And yet, God acts. He gave the Law through Moses. He sent the archangel Saint Gabriel to Mary. He took upon Himself our human nature. He founded His Church. And, He is pouring out His graces of conversion from sin, now, in His entire world on Earth. God is not inactive!

If you can’t grasp it, at least you can accept it as Church teaching. It is wisdom to submit to Church Authority.
 
While Tyrion’s sin of pride is what it is, you cannot thereby dismiss his valid logical argument.
You’d be right, if he had one to begin with.
God is omnipotent and can and will defeat Tyrion’s intellectual pride, but failed rebuttals are failed rebuttals.
I think you’re giving his premise much more due than it’s worth.
God can be known with certainty by the light of Reason. This does not imply that any argument advanced by a Catholic automatically succeeds, even though Catholics have the Truth and Tyrion has only his intellect.
Ok?
The human intellect is designed to apprehend truth, and Tyrion can learn just as well as anyone, but not if those presuming to teach him have no arguments that touch the substance of his.
That is because he is attempting to argue about something for which there is no logical answer. Furthermore, he is attempting to disprove the concept of God’s omniscience without even knowing what that omniscience entails. Others have tried to explain. He’s refusing to listen. His blinders are wearing blinders.
The conundrum Tyrion has presented you is real.
No, it isn’t, and your saying so doesn’t make it so.
It isn’t going to go away by your fallacious appeal to the Authority of God’s Church.
What appeal to authority? Tyrion is already attempting to query the authority of the Church by asking a question that is purely within its purview.
You accept God’s Church Authority; that is commendable in you, that is wisdom in you, and that wisdom in you comes from God. Tyrion’s intellectual gifts, likewise come from God. Tyrion abuses those intellectual gifts in him. Are you yourself not abusing God’s wisdom in you, by failing to address Tyrion’s actual argument, and instead appealing to an Authority that, for all its legitimacy, Tyrion does not recognize?
Truth is truth, whether or not one believes in it. Don’t hand me anything to do with lukewarm and fetid relativism. Relativism is a lie, and a filthy one at that.
 
It is sufficient… my duty to [Tyrion] as God’s Prophet is finished for the time being.
Wow. Just… wow. :eek:

Well, that makes it clear why you were so insistent on him reading your post! But… that seems a whole lot less like ‘evangelization’ and a whole lot more like some sort of delivery boy: you’ve gotten your ‘proof of delivery’ and your job is done…! :sad_yes:
what is that to me? I have warned him.
I know that I’m not perfect – heck, just look back a coupla pages, and you’ll see how I lost my cool – but I think evangelization is more than just “warning” people… 😉
 
Sorry, no. God is not only Pure Act; also, God acts.
Actually, when Aquinas talks about ‘pure act’, he’s not addressing ‘activities’; he’s talking about the distinction of act and potency. So, if you want to say “act without change” (which, on the face of it, sounds contradictory), be my guest. However, Aquinas is talking about “act without potentiality” (or ‘potency’).
God acts without changing. Human inability to grasp the non-contradictory nature of that statement does not in fact make the statement a self-contradiction.
That’s because a more proper way to express it is “God is act” rather than “God acts”. The former expresses God’s unchanging nature, while the latter leads to the incomprehensibility that you note.

However, we’re pretty far afield at the moment. This might make for a discussion in another thread (or, you could search for other threads dealing with this distinction, such as this thread).
God is not inactive!
Hmm… how in the world did you get, from my posting, that I think God is inactive? God. Is. Act. 😉
If you can’t grasp it, at least you can accept it as Church teaching.
:rolleyes:
 
Wow. Just… wow. :eek:

Well, that makes it clear why you were so insistent on him reading your post! But… that seems a whole lot less like ‘evangelization’ and a whole lot more like some sort of delivery boy: you’ve gotten your ‘proof of delivery’ and your job is done…! :sad_yes:

I know that I’m not perfect – heck, just look back a coupla pages, and you’ll see how I lost my cool – but I think evangelization is more than just “warning” people… 😉
I agree that evangelization is more than just warning people, but sometimes planting seeds is all you can do…
 
That’s a reasonable objection – but that’s not what the intent of the movie analogy is!
I know it is not supposed to be. 😉 But it is not my fault that the analogy did not deliver what you wanted it to deliver.
It’s not that God is sitting somewhere, up ‘there’, watching time play itself out down ‘here’: the intent of the movie analogy is to put God in the position of seeing all of the movie at once!
Yes, I understand that this was your intent. The “movie” or rather the theater play properly shows that the spectator (God, in your case) does not see the whole movie (or play) at once - since the play does not happen simultaneously. It does not matter if God is not part of this “time flow”, because the observed event still happens in our time flow.
In fact, if that were the intent of the movie analogy, it would be logically untenable, since it would mean that time itself was outside of time! (That is, if God had to ‘wait’ for our time to play itself out, then that would imply that there was some sort of time in God’s context in and through which God could ‘wait’ and ‘watch’.)
Yes, indeed. That is the point. The last “scene” is still waiting to be played. To postulate that there one kind of time-flow, which is part of the space-time-energy-matter and that there is a different kind of time-flow for God is perfectly sensible. Why cannot be two different kinds of “time” for two totally different types of “existence”? Moreover, the theists assert that God is NOT frozen, that God acts from “time” to “time” (miracles!) and at the very least God performed a very significant “action” when he created the world from nothing. Since “time” is a measure of change, and since God acted, and since action is impossible without change… and since change brings along a “before” and “after”, you really should not “blame” me to use this kind of irrefutable reasoning and suggest that God DOES live in some kind of time.
That’s not at all what’s being suggested here.
I know… but do not shoot the messenger for the “bad news”.
There we go – this is the point where the analogy falls apart. Movies are deterministic: no matter how many times you watch Indiana Jones, the ark of the covenant still ends up in a storage warehouse.
Maybe you missed that I suggested the theater play kind of approach. The “time flow” of Romeo and Juliet is not the same as the time flow of the spectator, and the actors may perform a free-will-based deviation from the manuscript. Even though the spectator lives in a totally different kind of time, he STILL does not (and cannot) see the whole play as one timeless “instant”. And that has nothing to do with the spectator being a human.
However, that’s not what we’re suggesting is the way that time works. I really do suggest you read up on the notion of free will and foreknowledge – this is exactly the problem that is discussed in that context (i.e., how foreknowledge can be thought of in a way that does not thwart free will). I understand that you’re unwilling to accept the notion, but being unwilling to examine the considerations that lead philosophers to this conclusion is rather self-limiting.
It does not really matter how time “works”. What matters is the metaphysical concept of change, which would not make sense if there would be no before and after - which we call - time! Btw., we are still not concerned with the reconciliation of “foreknowledge” and “free will”. We are still “bogged down” in the problem of “omniscience”.
 
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