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SeekerDude
Guest
Listen to your intuition! Spend some time in the forest. Donât waste your time reading about a God you canât believe in. Go out there and find what makes sense to you.
:christmastree1:
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Peter_Plato
Guest
Right! Donât waste your time trying to find Truth. Make it up as you go, as long as it makes you feel comfortable. :nope:
Listen to your intuition! Spend some time in the forest. Donât waste your time reading about a God you canât believe in. Go out there and find what makes sense to you.
:christmastree1:
âBlessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comfortedâŚ
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filledâŚ
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see GodâŚ
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt 5:1-12)
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Peter_Plato
Guest
SeekerDude, this might explain why you, too, are still seeking and are not FoundDude:
I have come in my Fatherâs name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
Hitler was a neopagan. He found great corroboration in the world of his time and likely thought the gods were speaking to him and guiding him because things did âwork for him,â well, at first.
Speaking of language, even the âfather of liesâ has his own language.
**When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:4)
**
Keep seeking, Dude. Someday, you might even find. Make sure it is what you really want to find because youâll be stuck with it.
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lynnvinc
Guest
I think the main solution is prayer directly to God, and asking Him personally for His help.
There are many ways in which God answers â mystical experiences (rare), regular experiences, inspirations, sudden insights, etc. I found God in my calculus course in high school (esp the concept of infinity), and in a book about evolution of the universe and life. No person could have ever come up with the idea of evolution, only discover it. And it all fits: God created a huge universe from a tiny particle, and life from a tiny strand of DNA, and came to us as a tiny babe, and comes to us as a tiny communion wafer. Godâs ways are not our ways; we tend to look for and seek after big things.
If one is sincere in their prayer and search, they will find their answer, and it is often very very subtle.
I remember as a kid wanting to see God, and using what Iâd been told â that God is omnipresent (as well as omnipotent & omniscient) â I held a blade grass up to the sun, squinting my eyes, praying, âGod please let me see you.â I figured I should be able to see God in that blade if He were truly omnipresent. Well, the blade was black against the bright sun, but I suddenly felt the presence of God in everything, in the blade and in the sun, and everywhere, and it was a loving presence; in effect, I âsawâ God.
Iâve had several other âspecialâ experiences, but I think God is greatly pleased if we simply use His creation, His messengers, and His messages, including what Jesus has said and done, as the route to our faith and trust in God, rather than some fantastic personal mystical experience that completely clarifies it.
And the main help is prayer and alertness to very subtle communiques from God that we are getting all the time (but which we mainly ignore).
There are many ways in which God answers â mystical experiences (rare), regular experiences, inspirations, sudden insights, etc. I found God in my calculus course in high school (esp the concept of infinity), and in a book about evolution of the universe and life. No person could have ever come up with the idea of evolution, only discover it. And it all fits: God created a huge universe from a tiny particle, and life from a tiny strand of DNA, and came to us as a tiny babe, and comes to us as a tiny communion wafer. Godâs ways are not our ways; we tend to look for and seek after big things.
If one is sincere in their prayer and search, they will find their answer, and it is often very very subtle.
I remember as a kid wanting to see God, and using what Iâd been told â that God is omnipresent (as well as omnipotent & omniscient) â I held a blade grass up to the sun, squinting my eyes, praying, âGod please let me see you.â I figured I should be able to see God in that blade if He were truly omnipresent. Well, the blade was black against the bright sun, but I suddenly felt the presence of God in everything, in the blade and in the sun, and everywhere, and it was a loving presence; in effect, I âsawâ God.
Iâve had several other âspecialâ experiences, but I think God is greatly pleased if we simply use His creation, His messengers, and His messages, including what Jesus has said and done, as the route to our faith and trust in God, rather than some fantastic personal mystical experience that completely clarifies it.
And the main help is prayer and alertness to very subtle communiques from God that we are getting all the time (but which we mainly ignore).
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Waiting
Guest
You arenât going to like this, but I sincerely feel very sorry for you. There is so much love waiting for you, and you turn away. Youâre free to choose the path youâve chosen, but why would you?
Listen to your intuition! Spend some time in the forest. Donât waste your time reading about a God you canât believe in. Go out there and find what makes sense to you.
:christmastree1:
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samiam1611
Guest
Reading the bible did not convince him. Is it unreasonable for me to suggest he look elsewhere? Catholicism says God can be known through reason alone, not just by Revelation. I disagree with that
but my personal opinion aside, the point is if God exists, one should be able to âfindâ God some way other than reading the bible.And as our friend Lynn wrote, she found God in a blade of grass, so to speak. Perhaps the OP will âfindâ God in the forest.
Do you knock this method of exploring spirituality? If one finds divinity in nature have they been deceived by the devil?
Or⌠is it God communicating to them on a level they are receptive to? Or is it all in their imaginationâŚjkIâm afraid Iâm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? I can handle it.
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Waiting
Guest
God is love. If youâre telling someone to stop wasting his time looking for God in His Word, the Bible, then you have turned your back on God. Youâve turned away from love. Nothing apart from God has lasting satisfaction, and will eventually leave an emptiness and bitterness in the soul. I truly feel sorry for you. I know that you feel you can you can find God in the forest or elsewhere, and that is possible, but God has given us a treasure map in His word. You can get too easily lost in the forest. It would have been better to encourge the poster to keep looking for God in the Bible. God will reward his efforts.Reading the bible did not convince him. Is it unreasonable for me to suggest he look elsewhere? Catholicism says God can be known through reason alone, not just by Revelation. I disagree with that
And as our friend Lynn wrote, she found God in a blade of grass, so to speak. Perhaps the OP will âfindâ God in the forest.
Do you knock this method of exploring spirituality? If one finds divinity in nature have they been deceived by the devil?
Iâm afraid Iâm not sure what you mean. Could you elaborate? I can handle it.
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samiam1611
Guest
Ah okay. I am actually an atheist [without an agenda
] so personally - technically - I donât think he will find anything in the forest either. I simply want to encourage him, and anyone reading this thread, to open their mind to be free from the indoctrination they may have been subjected to. As an agnostic atheist, I do not absolutely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of higher power; if JFJK finds something he wants to call God in the forest and it brings him peace, I am happy for him.I appreciate your sympathy, misplaced as it may be.
[SIGN]Tree bless![/SIGN]
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samiam1611
Guest
Ah okay. I am actually an atheist [without an agenda
] so personally - technically - I donât think he will find anything in the forest either. I simply want to encourage him, and any lurkers reading this thread, to open their mind to be free from the indoctrination they may have been subjected to.As an agnostic atheist, I do not absolutely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of higher power; if JFJK finds something he wants to call God in the forest and it brings him peace, I am happy for him.
I appreciate your sympathy, misplaced as it may be.
[SIGN]Tree bless![/SIGN]
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
JFJK you are not alone in this. But your above statement is a non sequitur.
What exactly does âI reject the existence of Godâ mean for you?
It is not a contradiction in terms to be a Christian and at the same time be unable to intellectually accept the existence of God.
Friendship with God is not primarily about âright viewâ (mind) but right acts (heart).
Get the latter going and the former will follow - eventually.
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lynnvinc
Guest
I think this is an important thread because it seems that most âreligiousâ people donât actually believe in GodâŚat least not all the time and as fully as they may claim they do.
We get busy with our lives, duties, and pursuits, and donât think much about God. In this age of science we understand what makes things work from a scientific view â gravity, etc.
So we are somewhat cognizant of the laws of science as they apply to our practical daily lives. And that is a good thing, bec thinking of God as animistic or pantheistic spirits that cause things to move with human-like motives (thunder indicating God is angry), thereby turning God into manâs image, may possibly be just as wrong as an atheistic view, at least from our Christian/Cathollic perspective.
God is so much more than we puny humans could ever imagine. As the Bible says, no one in this life can see God and live. Knowing God is like surrendering to the âUnknown,â and saints have written about âthe Cloud of Unknowing.â John of the Cross says (paraphrazing him very badly), if you have a conception of God, then youâre wrong. It is impossible for finite beings to comprehend the infinite God. And yet John of the Cross was passionately in love with God, passionately seeking him his whole life. And the only way to achieve union with God is through self-denialâŚnada, nada, nada, rejecting all that is not-God.
Getting back to our mundane lives, I know for me my belief in God or consideration of God in daily life tends to wax and wane (sometimes wane a lot), tho my faith so far has remained (knock on the wood of the Cross). Faith being something that one can only have IF one does not have absolute proof and certainty of something; hope being something one can have only IF one does not have the thing one hopes for. So in heaven we will not have to have faith or hope, because hopefully we will have achieved union with God and be in His presence, and only Love will remain.
Having true belief and faith in God is sort of like being in love with a person who is somewhat out of reach in this life (except for a few love letters and gifts) â which makes oneâs life a life of yearning, yet a joyful expectation and hope that one will eventually be united with the Beloved. I donât think a lot of modern people like being in that state â they want to get things they want right now. I write this on âBlack Fridayâ â which to me has a sort of satanic ring to it.
If we are to be very honest with ourselves, it is very normal and natural to doubt Godâs existence. It is very brave to face up to that, and dangerous, because one could lose it all. But I donât think God would want us to shrink back into some cave of pseudo-belief in some self-satisfying, pseudo concept of Him either. I think He would want us to do the hard work of seeking after Him.
The Bible may or may not come alive and help. Spiritual readings of saints, etc, may or may not come alive and help. Whatever. Some may have to carve out their own spiritual resources to help find and stay on the Way. Often a true seeker will find something from the voluminous 2000 years of Catholic literature that helps. But ultimately I think God wants us to be able to walk strong in faith without crutches.
Just like with the AA steps, perhaps the first step to a truly blessed, spiritual life that puts us on the right road to union with God in heaven is to face up to our doubtsâŚ
We get busy with our lives, duties, and pursuits, and donât think much about God. In this age of science we understand what makes things work from a scientific view â gravity, etc.
So we are somewhat cognizant of the laws of science as they apply to our practical daily lives. And that is a good thing, bec thinking of God as animistic or pantheistic spirits that cause things to move with human-like motives (thunder indicating God is angry), thereby turning God into manâs image, may possibly be just as wrong as an atheistic view, at least from our Christian/Cathollic perspective.
God is so much more than we puny humans could ever imagine. As the Bible says, no one in this life can see God and live. Knowing God is like surrendering to the âUnknown,â and saints have written about âthe Cloud of Unknowing.â John of the Cross says (paraphrazing him very badly), if you have a conception of God, then youâre wrong. It is impossible for finite beings to comprehend the infinite God. And yet John of the Cross was passionately in love with God, passionately seeking him his whole life. And the only way to achieve union with God is through self-denialâŚnada, nada, nada, rejecting all that is not-God.
Getting back to our mundane lives, I know for me my belief in God or consideration of God in daily life tends to wax and wane (sometimes wane a lot), tho my faith so far has remained (knock on the wood of the Cross). Faith being something that one can only have IF one does not have absolute proof and certainty of something; hope being something one can have only IF one does not have the thing one hopes for. So in heaven we will not have to have faith or hope, because hopefully we will have achieved union with God and be in His presence, and only Love will remain.
Having true belief and faith in God is sort of like being in love with a person who is somewhat out of reach in this life (except for a few love letters and gifts) â which makes oneâs life a life of yearning, yet a joyful expectation and hope that one will eventually be united with the Beloved. I donât think a lot of modern people like being in that state â they want to get things they want right now. I write this on âBlack Fridayâ â which to me has a sort of satanic ring to it.
If we are to be very honest with ourselves, it is very normal and natural to doubt Godâs existence. It is very brave to face up to that, and dangerous, because one could lose it all. But I donât think God would want us to shrink back into some cave of pseudo-belief in some self-satisfying, pseudo concept of Him either. I think He would want us to do the hard work of seeking after Him.
The Bible may or may not come alive and help. Spiritual readings of saints, etc, may or may not come alive and help. Whatever. Some may have to carve out their own spiritual resources to help find and stay on the Way. Often a true seeker will find something from the voluminous 2000 years of Catholic literature that helps. But ultimately I think God wants us to be able to walk strong in faith without crutches.
Just like with the AA steps, perhaps the first step to a truly blessed, spiritual life that puts us on the right road to union with God in heaven is to face up to our doubtsâŚ
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Peter_Plato
Guest
In my experience, anyone who states they donât have an agenda are the ones who, clearly, do. They must deceive themselves before they, in an illusion of good conscience, go out to deceive others.Ah okay. I am actually an atheist [without an agenda
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Peter_Plato
Guest
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vames
Guest
Wise words and so true.
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Waiting
Guest
Isnât agnostic atheist an oxymoron? You canât say that you believe that something is possible, and then say that you believe also that it is impossible. However, since you admit that the existence of God is possible, I challenge you to be acutely aware in the future of what youâve been assuming are coincidences. Many of us refer to them as Godincidences. Be skeptical, thatâs fine, but keep an open mind as to when they come about, how they come about, and what happens because of these âcoincidences.â Maybe, just maybe, youâll see God working in your life. You may not know Him, but He knows you very well. Heâs not giving up on you.Ah okay. I am actually an atheist [without an agenda
As an agnostic atheist, I do not absolutely rule out the possibility that there is some kind of higher power; if JFJK finds something he wants to call God in the forest and it brings him peace, I am happy for him.
I appreciate your sympathy, misplaced as it may be.
[SIGN]Tree bless![/SIGN]
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JFJK
Guest
Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
With the Bible as âGodâs wordâ: Itâs in part reading the Bible carefully and unbiased that keeps directing me to the conclusions that âThis must be a man-made mythâ and âThis canât possibly be trueâ.
Also I have always lost the argument with any non-believers about the possibility of a personal God. Which leads me to think: âWhat if the non-believer is right?â
Maybe this is a metaphor for my situation: Being in love with a person that is always out-of-reach (like a long-distance online relationship ??) and me asking myself âdoes this person really exist? Have I only been hallucinating when I called?â Yet I do have a memory of deep physical intimacy (âbread and wine ??â) But was that real or was this also a psychological delusion?
Still sorting this out. Am I rejecting God or am I rejecting just my own false image of God? What is the product of my cultural upbringing and what is real? My common sense tells me: God doesnât exist. My intuition still keeps asking: Is there a possibility that God could be?
Plus the problem in my conscience, what is right: Hold on to old beliefs or having the courage to reject the old beliefs if they were false.
With the Bible as âGodâs wordâ: Itâs in part reading the Bible carefully and unbiased that keeps directing me to the conclusions that âThis must be a man-made mythâ and âThis canât possibly be trueâ.
Also I have always lost the argument with any non-believers about the possibility of a personal God. Which leads me to think: âWhat if the non-believer is right?â
Maybe this is a metaphor for my situation: Being in love with a person that is always out-of-reach (like a long-distance online relationship ??) and me asking myself âdoes this person really exist? Have I only been hallucinating when I called?â Yet I do have a memory of deep physical intimacy (âbread and wine ??â) But was that real or was this also a psychological delusion?
Still sorting this out. Am I rejecting God or am I rejecting just my own false image of God? What is the product of my cultural upbringing and what is real? My common sense tells me: God doesnât exist. My intuition still keeps asking: Is there a possibility that God could be?
Plus the problem in my conscience, what is right: Hold on to old beliefs or having the courage to reject the old beliefs if they were false.
Iâll try doing the right acts. This will take more time for me to sort out. I have get out of the web and sort this out in real life. Still thank you all for the answers here, it helped me organize my thoughts a little bit.
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lynnvinc
Guest
RE the Bible, here is how I look at it:
- The Old Testament, esp Genesis: I teach mythology, so Iâm familiar with many world myths (stories told as true about how the world came into being). If you really look into the various myths they make a lot of sense. Like the Chinese myth of the sun being a âfire bird.â Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has no knowledge of modern science, trying to make sense of the world. That âfire birdâ idea make âscientificâ sense, bec the sun is something that moves across the sky (or so it seems to people who have not been educated into the heliocentric view of the earth-sun relationship), and what moves across the sky? Birds. The sun brings heat and light, so it must be a fire bird.
But the Bible is not the only âbookâ God wrote (thru falliable, limited mortals), but God also created creation. The world itself is a âBibleâ written directly by God, and the scientists are its exigetical specialists (interpretors), and they were finally able over many centuries of close study to figure out how the world & life and life came to be (thru the Big Bang and evolution).
Wow, who would have ever thought how truly great God is and how great in tiny small things â much greater than we could have ever imagined. I personally think people in this day and age who cling to the pre-evolution story or claim some David Copperfield anthropomorphic (in manâs image) intelligent designer may actually be insulting God by their limited conception of God. Scientists at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences also agree with me on that (according to an article I read somewhere some 4 years ago).
- Here is how I look at the New Testament: a bunch of peasants (fishermen, etc) tell a story of this man, Jesus, and his miracles and resurrection, etc. As good Jews theyâve been taught the strict monotheistic view of God, so the idea that Jesus could be God or that the long-awaited messiah would have to die and suffer (instead of take over the kingdom and boot out the enemies) would have seemed totally unacceptable and unbelievable to them. Except they saw the miracles and the resurrection, so they had to believe what they saw, and also whatever this man Jesus told them, because he was quite beyond anything they could ever imagine.
As St. John of the Cross says, faith come thru the ears (hearing the Gospels). You either believe it, or you donât. And the stories are pretty fantastic and difficult to believe â letâs be frank about that. Iâm just the gullible type, I guess, so I totally believe. But I understand it would be difficult for the skeptical type to believe.
Another thing that helps is my view that everything is a miracle â some things have scientific explanations and some do notâŚyet.
Here is a nice vid from YouTube I like very much: youtube.com/watch?v=CZZFO9F8FWU
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Waiting
Guest
O.k., since you really seem so very confused about whether God is real , or not, try this. I talk to the Lord all day, off and on. Something is missing, I ask Him where it is. Something isnât working right, I ask God whatâs wrong. Iâm confused about something, I ask Him for help. I talk to Him as though He is my constant companion, because He is. If you are sincere about losing your confusion about His existence, then talk to Him. Talk to Him about anything and everything. How can that hurt? If you find Him answering you, just think of the rewards! Iâve stopped being amazed by the love the Lord extends to me. Give it a try. God bless.
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Blue_Horizon
Guest
Good luck with this new direction - I was where you are and this is working for meâŚ
I liked the bit where you said you had a distant memory of God being intimate and real (in the bread and wine?). I think you are on to something there. Its problematic having a relationship with a person who isnât materially intimate (like us) at the moment!
What you said is how I think it works with âŚover time we end up with exactly the same feeling/memory as we do with physical persons we have known and loved. (I cannot remember what my old mum used to look like but I still have a strong memory of her immediacy as a person. She was real too
).
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lynnvinc
Guest
That really works for me too, except I still get wowed at how He answers! Though I really shouldnât be if I really has very strong faith⌠Itâs bec of my dim faith I get amazed.
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