Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[adventistnomore]

Refusing to hear reason because the church we attend has a different doctrine is very foolish.

Hi Ashamed,

Thank you for your contribution, but I think you must realize that the Catholics on this thread are not especially impressed by Adventist reasoning. We aren’t trying to be stubborn (smirk), but there are far more concerns at stake than Adventists generally realize.

Hopefully, we can better articulate those concerns.

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

Someone who is sincere would not have to resort to lies to get their point across like Doug Batchelor is known to do. do you not agree?

If someone has to misrepresent Catholicism in order to get their message accepted, can their message truly have much value? A religion based on misinformation about others is probably not worth serious consideration.

 

[Joel1984]

To Ashamed
There is a thread on this section of the forum which discusses the sabbath issue. It has pretty much died down since Christmas as I put to rest two SDA apologists. Check it out and maybe take a stab at my posts on Col 2:16; Gal 4:10. I’d be more than happy than to engage yourself in a friendly discussion on the sabbath and the believer.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=109580&page=19

theres the url to that thread. I started posting around part 11. Richard and Protestant101 whom are both SDA’s like yourself threw in the towel.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

 

[po18guy]

To Ashamed
There is a thread on this section of the forum which discusses the sabbath issue. It has pretty much died down since Christmas as I put to rest two SDA apologists. Check it out and maybe take a stab at my posts on Col 2:16; Gal 4:10. I’d be more than happy than to engage yourself in a friendly discussion on the sabbath and the believer.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=109580&page=19

theres the url to that thread. I started posting around part 11. Richard and Protestant101 whom are both SDA’s like yourself threw in the towel.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

Joel, great arguments. My Chaplain at work is SDA. We love each other as brothers in Christ, but he has toned down the anti-Catholicism taught by the “Adventist Pope”, Ellen Gould White. He was “shocked” to hear a mere Catholic speak so fervently of the Lord and the practice of the faith. When we pray together, he begins “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Hey, it’s a start!

Christ’s peace, brother.

 

[Joel1984]

To Po18guy

That is good your co-worker has stopped the anti-catholic attacks. I believe in alot of cases that Catholicism is misrepresented. You will not find in the SDA church discussion on doctrines such as Aposolic Sucession, Papal Supremcy, Justification by faith etc. Instead what you will find is Jack Chick style of attacks and Whore of Babylon application to the Papacy and Jesuit Paranioa. That is all that they can muster as the Great Controversy is their anti-catholic text book.

Adventists are arrogant when coming on this forum as they believe Catholics cannot give a defense for their beliefs and they believe they can bully them around. Most walk away eating humble pie.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

 

[Heblesses]

Amazing Facts (Falsehoods) is a seventh day adventist front group. They will resist admitting their sda affiliation. Wonder why. Do NOT trust one thing they tell you. They doctor quotes. I have caught them and pointed it out, but they acknowledged it and refused to change the quote back. They leave out crucial parts of quotes using the elipse ie. the … They use anything but the catechism as authoritative sources. They find some “catholic” book and quote it as if it were dogma. They use every trick in the book to lie and deceive. Don’t believe a word they say.

 

[Heblesses]

[F ONT=“Georgia”]**[/FO
NT] Hi Cestuslei,

I have to agree with you on this to a point. I have listened to Batchelor several times and on the surface he seems solid. But sometimes his wording is lacking and I called him on the carpet today. Didn’t know his is 7th day. Most of their teaching is biblical. But there are somethings one has to watch out for.

Thank you for posting so I know that others see something wrong.

 

[Heblesses]

I will give you one example. In 300 years the Spanish inquisition executed perhaps 3000 people. Compare that to the hundreds of thousands of Catholics brutally tortured and killed by good Bible believing Protestants (and don’t let the sda’s claim they are not Protestant, they are).

 

[Heblesses]

Hi Again Crestusdei,

I am not Catholic, but I think it is wrong for another denomination to attack another. You were partly right when you were talking about the Spanish inquisition- there were a lot of people killed, that is one think my former husband used to use to not come to Christ.

But if you check a good portion of those that did the killing in that were Catholic. Not to mention that the Catholics burned several Christians at the stake if you look up church history. Huss and I think Tyndale if memory serves me.

I think there will be Catholics in heaven too. But that depends on if one has a personal relationship with Christ. I don’t think church matters it it is what we do with Christ in our lives that makes the difference whether one makes it to heaven. It is more than attending church. When one asks Christ into their lives, their lives are transformed. It doesn’t matter how many times one says they are Christians, it boils down to what they do.

The problem that I have with the Catholic church is the Pope taking the place of Christ. He isn’t or shouldn’t be taking or being a substitute for Christ. Christ is our mediator to God that is why He died for us. Praying to Mary or the Saints does one no good, confessing sins to men does no good, except maybe to get things off your chest. We aren’t forgiven until we ask Christ directly.

If you would like to discuss this further I accept emails. godsgrace33@yahoo.com

 

[Sabda]

Hi Again Crestusdei,

I am not Catholic, but I think it is wrong for another denomination to attack another. You were partly right when you were talking about the Spanish inquisition- there were a lot of people killed, that is one think my former husband used to use to not come to Christ.

But if you check a good portion of those that did the killing in that were Catholic. Not to mention that the Catholics burned several Christians at the stake if you look up church history. Huss and I think Tyndale if memory serves me.

I think there will be Catholics in heaven too. But that depends on if one has a personal relationship with Christ. I don’t think church matters it it is what we do with Christ in our lives that makes the difference whether one makes it to heaven. It is more than attending church. When one asks Christ into their lives, their lives are transformed. It doesn’t matter how many times one says they are Christians, it boils down to what they do.

The problem that I have with the Catholic church is the Pope taking the place of Christ. He isn’t or shouldn’t be taking or being a substitute for Christ. Christ is our mediator to God that is why He died for us. Praying to Mary or the Saints does one no good, confessing sins to men does no good, except maybe to get things off your chest. We aren’t forgiven until we ask Christ directly.

If you would like to discuss this further I accept emails. godsgrace33@yahoo.com

Referring to the bolded part. If you will do a search, which is at the top, for each of those subjects you will find LOTS of posts to read. Also I would strongly encourage you to find out what we really do believe before you go off making claims about what you think we believe. There is lots of stuff in the CA homepage, which is also at the top of the page.

The Catechism is another good source of info about what we believe and more importantly WHY.

If you prefer the compact version here is the Compendium of the Catechism. It gives the short and sweet of the Catechism.

 

[po18guy]

To Po18guy

That is good your co-worker has stopped the anti-catholic attacks. I believe in alot of cases that Catholicism is misrepresented. You will not find in the SDA church discussion on doctrines such as Aposolic Sucession, Papal Supremcy, Justification by faith etc. Instead what you will find is Jack Chick style of attacks and Whore of Babylon application to the Papacy and Jesuit Paranioa. That is all that they can muster as the Great Controversy is their anti-catholic text book.

Adventists are arrogant when coming on this forum as they believe Catholics cannot give a defense for their beliefs and they believe they can bully them around. Most walk away eating humble pie.

Christian regards
Joel Sexton

We can only pray and hope that they see the light. As spiritual as EGW’s writings seem, Christ spoke of such “prophets” as she, Smith, Russell, and the others. How can any faith which popped up out of nowhere in 1800s America be the true faith? Bishop Fulton Sheen always recommended to examine prophecy when examining anything for truthfulness.

Christ’s peace, brother.

 

[steve_b]

And upon the first [day] of the week,

That is Sunday
daro:

when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7

In a Bibical day a new day begins at sun down. In Acts 20:7 the first day of the week is actually Saturday night. This isn’t a Sunday morning worship service.

In biblical terms,

• the Sabbath begins sundown Friday till sundown Saturday. That period is all Saturday, which is the Sabbath. BTW, that’s why they took Jesus body down before sundown Friday. So as not to have Him on the cross during Sabbath.
• sundown ends one day and begins the new day. Therefore, sundown Saturday till sundown Sunday, is all Sunday, and the 1st day of the week in biblical terms. That is the day the apostles met and broke bread (celebrate the Eucharist)

daro:

Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 1 Corinthians 16:2

And they make Sunday offerings as well.
daro:

Paul was telling them to put aside some money at home on the first day of the week. People got paid on Fridays which was the preparation day for the weekly Sabbath and Paul was telling them to not sort their money out for the next week until after the Sabbath had past. This text has nothing to do with collecting money in a worship service. Then Paul would collect the money as he was passing through.

You know now, you are wrong. I’ve been to the holy land. You can almost set your watch to how commerce is halted Friday at sunset. You don’t even press buttons in elevators on the Sabbath. The elevator automatically stoips at every floor. There is no cooking. All rrestaurants prepared food ahead of time so that no one works on the Sabbath. But sundown Saturday, and you’d think an alarm went off in everybody’s head. Back to normal.

 

[steve_b]

The early Christian church kept the 7th day sabbath for the first 300 years of its history.

The Lord’s Day only appears once in the Bible in Revelation chapter 1.

Using the Bible and only the Bible it is quite clear that “The Lord’s Day” is the weekly 7th day sabbath.

Technically everyday is the Lord’s Day. But in the sense we’re using it, it is the Day He rose from the dead. He didn’t rise on the Sabbath, He rose on the 1st day. The apostles could celebrate the Sabbath, but break brread (celebrate the Eucharist) on Sunday.
daro:

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

IOW, don’t do work on the Sabbath. Which is what I said in the previous post
Daro:

Exd 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Ditto
Daro:

Exd 20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:

Yep
Daro:

Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exd 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ***, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

Deu 5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, [from] doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking [thine own] words:

Ditto to all this
Daro:

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

And this is why Sunday is the NEW Lord’s day.

 

[Joel1984]

Can someone tell me where Daro’s post is? I cannot find it. thank you
Joel sexton

 

[steve_b]

Can someone tell me where Daro’s post is? I cannot find it. thank you
Joel sexton

If you’re wanting to know what i was responding to, go to the beginning of each response. Next to Dano’s name is a blue arrow. Click on the blue arrow to see the post being responded to.

 

[dewbeee]

I believe what Doug Batchelor says because he got it from the Bible.
He never rephrased anything that the Bible says! Pastor Doug Batchelor is a man inspired by God, and he will be fully blessed for revealing the TRUE GOSPEL of GOD. When you know the TRUTH, the TRUTH WILL SET US FREE… The Seventh-Day is the Sabbath of the Lord

THE TRUTH:
Emperor Constantine. He became a Christian and this made Christians happy. But Constantine worshiped the sun on the day consecrated to the god of the sun: SUNDAY. Therefore, the emperor, “converted” to Christianity, brought Sunday to the church as the special day of worship.

The Christians never would dare to worship the sun. However, they made a small concession of worshiping God on the day dedicated to the sun. “Something ever so slight.” Saturday was considered only a detail. What was most important was to worship the true God without giving much attention to the day. And the enemy (Satan) obtained what he wanted; he corrupted the purity of the Christian doctrine. He mixed it with PAGANT PRACTICE.

PROOF:

Matthew 5:17-20

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 5:17-18 paraphrase:

“the law and prophets will endure forever unless it be fulfilled first.”

 

[po18guy]

I believe what Doug Batchelor says because he got it from the Bible. He never rephrased anything that the Bible says! Pastor Doug Batchelor is a man inspired by God, and he will be fully blessed for revealing the TRUE GOSPEL of GOD. When you know the TRUTH, the TRUTH WILL SET US FREE… The Seventh-Day is the Sabbath of the Lord THE TRUTH: Emperor Constantine. He became a Christian and this made Christians happy. But Constantine worshiped the sun on the day consecrated to the god of the sun: SUNDAY. Therefore, the emperor, “converted” to Christianity, brought Sunday to the church as the special day of worship. The Christians never would dare to worship the sun. However, they made a small concession of worshiping God on the day dedicated to the sun. “Something ever so slight.” Saturday was considered only a detail. What was most important was to worship the true God without giving much attention to the day. And the enemy (Satan) obtained what he wanted; he corrupted the purity of the Christian doctrine. He mixed it with PAGANT PRACTICE. PROOF: Matthew 5:17-20 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-18 paraphrase: “the law and prophets will endure forever unless it be fulfilled first.”

Thank you for expressing the unique Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of sola scriptura. You obviously have great faith in the book and the prophetess. Mr. Batchelor is almost like an SDA Pope, isn’t he? His works are revered at a level approaching SDA “prophetess” Ellen Gould White’s. This is what I understand from studying the tenets of the denomination. Your obvious faith in his interpretation seems to back this up.

Interesting twist on the scripture verses. The Catholic Fathers, from whom you got every word in your bible, also believed what was written, but they believed in more than you do. Is there more to Christ than just the sacred “Cliff Notes” written about His life? Yes! I refer you to John 21:25. The bible is incomplete - by John’s revelation. It’s also incomplete about John the Baptist by Luke’s revelation in Luke 3:18. Where are those other teachings and exhortations? Where did they go? They were taught orally. That’s Sacred Tradition.

When necessary, Christ read from the scrolls in the temple. He never taught from a book. He did not command the writing of a book. He carried no book. He did not “hand on” a book. He commanded oral teaching, a reflection of His own perfect model. All of His Apostles, including Paul, taught using the oral tradition, and they all taught and practiced the Eucharist. Were they all wrong?

Is Jesus the “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28) or not? Was the “Sabbath made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27)? Why did God choose to raise Jesus on Sunday? Was it so that we would later ignore that day? What about Jesus giving the Apostles the power to bind and loose (Matthew 16:19, 18:18)? Christ said “Whatever” they held bound was bound. “Whatever” seems to include changing the Sabbath, which the Pharisees falsely observed. Thus, by falsely observing the Sabbath, they did not keep the day holy.

Your history lesson needs a tune up. That interpretation of history appeared, amazingly enough, after the reformation. Why not look further back into Christianity for true history? You will find that it looks awfully catholic.

Question: Do you love Jesus enough to follow him wherever he leads you? Even into the Catholic Church?

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Ashamed]

Heblesses:
He actually states on the show (and quite often) that he’s the pastor of the an SDA church in San Diego. I think it might even be in the credits.

 

[Ashamed]

Thank you for expressing the unique Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of sola scriptura. You obviously have great faith in the book and the prophetess. Mr. Batchelor is almost like an SDA Pope, isn’t he? His works are revered at a level approaching SDA “prophetess” Ellen Gould White’s. This is what I understand from studying the tenets of the denomination. Your obvious faith in his interpretation seems to back this up.

Interesting twist on the scripture verses. The Catholic Fathers, from whom you got every word in your bible, also believed what was written, but they believed in more than you do. Is there more to Christ than just the sacred “Cliff Notes” written about His life? Yes! I refer you to John 21:25. The bible is incomplete - by John’s revelation. It’s also incomplete about John the Baptist by Luke’s revelation in Luke 3:18. Where are those other teachings and exhortations? Where did they go? They were taught orally. That’s Sacred Tradition.

When necessary, Christ read from the scrolls in the temple. He never taught from a book. He did not command the writing of a book. He carried no book. He did not “hand on” a book. He commanded oral teaching, a reflection of His own perfect model. All of His Apostles, including Paul, taught using the oral tradition, and they all taught and practiced the Eucharist. Were they all wrong?

Is Jesus the “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28) or not? Was the “Sabbath made for man, not man for the Sabbath” (Mark 2:27)? Why did God choose to raise Jesus on Sunday? Was it so that we would later ignore that day? What about Jesus giving the Apostles the power to bind and loose (Matthew 16:19, 18:18)? Christ said “Whatever” they held bound was bound. “Whatever” seems to include changing the Sabbath, which the Pharisees falsely observed. Thus, by falsely observing the Sabbath, they did not keep the day holy.

Your history lesson needs a tune up. That interpretation of history appeared, amazingly enough, after the reformation. Why not look further back into Christianity for true history? You will find that it looks awfully catholic.

Question: Do you love Jesus enough to follow him wherever he leads you? Even into the Catholic Church?

Christ’s peace be with you.

My question for you is why would God change one his commmandments when Jesus said he didn’t come to do that (as quoted earlier). Its as if he knew what would happen, warned against and yet it happened anyways. The commandment itself says to “remember” rather than “thou shalt not…”

Also, Jesus read scrollls because books didn’t exist at that time. The printing press didn’t appear until the 15th century and that is when books first appeared. Re-writing the Old Testament for every Jew to read would have been impossible so the actual reading of scripture was done in the temple but Jesus and his disciples knew it well it enough that they could recite them orally. The last few verses of Revelation show just how important God considers written scripture.

 

[po18guy]

My question for you is why would God change one his commmandments when Jesus said he didn’t come to do that (as quoted earlier). Its as if he knew what would happen, warned against and yet it happened anyways. The commandment itself says to “remember” rather than “thou shalt not…”

Also, Jesus read scrollls because books didn’t exist at that time. The printing press didn’t appear until the 15th century and that is when books first appeared. Re-writing the Old Testament for every Jew to read would have been impossible so the actual reading of scripture was done in the temple but Jesus and his disciples knew it well it enough that they could recite them orally. The last few verses of Revelation show just how important God considers written scripture.

Sacred Scripture is exactly that. But, for almost 2,000 years, it has not been the sole rule of faith, not was it intended to be, or does it say that it is. It was assembled and put forth by the early church fathers who practiced Sacred Tradition, which was taught by Christ, alongside. For the sake of argument, let’s call the bible 50% of Catholic faith.

Make no mistake: Millions of Christians do extremely well with this 50%, and Catholics would do well to learn from their example. But, how can someone be fully Christian with only the bible? Were the first 380 years of Christians any less saved because they had no canon of scripture? Were the first 1,400 years of Christians any less saved because there was no bible in their homes?

The point being, go back into history. Way back. See how the fathers practiced. See how they handed on the Sacred Traditions. The bible is an irreplaceable part of our faith. But, it is far from all.

Christ’s peace.