Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[BibleTruth]

Interestingly enough, I also read the Bible but I do not agree with your personal interpretation of the Bible. You may be able to use the Bible to defend your beliefs but so can I. So, how do we solve this problem of difference in interpretation according to the Bible?

I don’t know what your interpretations are, so I can’t really respond effectively yet. Perhaps if you share, we can both come to a common understanding of what God is saying to us in His word.

 

[BibleTruth]

who is the one to decide the true enterpretation of the SS using your method of test and validity?

who is going to listen to you enterpretation?

how do you do it? do you tell a baptist, no your enterpretation is wrong? or do you tell assemblies of God no yours is wrong.

which of you decide what Jesus realy meant by His words?

i am interested to know.

I don’t interpret the Bible…I simply compare Scripture with Scripture to get an understanding. John 5:39: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” I do believe that some people isolate one Scripture and form a theological belief on it alone; I don’t think that’s a good idea. We should found our beliefs on solid ground. Matthew 7:26-27: “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

When it comes to discussions on something like the Ten Commandments, how can that be open for discussion or interpretation…they are what they are? It doesn’t take interpretation; it takes having faith that Christ saves us from our sins and humbling and submitting ourselves to doing his will…that’s it. By doing that, our lives, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will produce good fruit (Galatians 5:22). We tend to complicate things by making it more that what it is.

1 Corinthians 12:12 (NLT): “The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ.” We need to all come together and accept the Bible as our guidance and break down the denominational walls that keep us separated.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t interpret the Bible…I simply compare Scripture with Scripture to get an understanding. John 5:39: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” I do believe that some people isolate one Scripture and form a theological belief on it alone; I don’t think that’s a good idea. We should found our beliefs on solid ground. Matthew 7:26-27: “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”

When it comes to discussions on something like the Ten Commandments, how can that be open for discussion or interpretation…they are what they are? It doesn’t take interpretation; it takes having faith that Christ saves us from our sins and humbling and submitting ourselves to doing his will…that’s it. By doing that, our lives, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, will produce good fruit (Galatians 5:22). We tend to complicate things by making it more that what it is.

1 Corinthians 12:12 (NLT): “The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ.” We need to all come together and accept the Bible as our guidance and break down the denominational walls that keep us separated.

Why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

 

[BibleTruth]

I believe that all the apostles agreed with and obeyed Christ. the one who did not agreed with Jesus ended up dead. (Judas)

we dont have to agree with the authority of the CC. think it again.

I’m not sure I follow your point, but I just want to insert the following with respect to the apostles:

Matthew 10:33: “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” (Jesus’ words)

You know the story here, but:

Matthew 26:75: And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

The difference with Peter was that he repented of his sin. Judas’ problem was that money became his god. 1 Timothy 6:10: For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

My point is that we’re all subject to the temptations of our sinful natures, but once our sins are revealed to us (by God’s Law) and we’re corrected by Scripture and convicted by the Holy Spirit, we should yield to God and not the authority of any man.

 

[BibleTruth]

Why do you believe the Bible is the Word of God?

Mainly because of the dozens of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled amazingly and astronomically by Christ. Additionally, it’s the only book that identifies the Creator of the universe and it’s the only book that stands up to the lies of evolution. Also, it’s the only book that gives us a reason to have a seven-day week. Not only that, but it has stood the test of time and even though it was written by such a diverse group of individuals, ranging from pheasants to kings, it’s remarkably consistent.

There are other reasons, but these are just a few.

Do you believe it’s the word of God? If so, please share your reasons. Thanks.

 

[BibleTruth]

a
yes the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. do you know any other who carries this name? i dont think so.

That name was given and taken on by men…not God.

Any church of God should use Scripture to prove any ecclesiastical point they dare to make and will teach the keeping His commandments. Just ask yourself, does your church fit that criteria?

In fact, according to Revelations 12:17, the dragon (the devil) “is wroth with at with the woman” (God’s true church as mentioned in verse 1) and that church is the one that “keeps God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus”. You can’t keep God’s commandments by changing them to fit your desires.

Revelation 19:10: “Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”

Here are some interesting quotes from the Catholic church:

• “The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires (…) complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” -Leo VIII, «On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens», Encyclical letter, 1890.
• “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.” Catholic National July 1895.
• “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty” …Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,
• “Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum).” -Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, p.26)

I say this with love, but how is this not blasphemy against the Almighty who created all of us? What are you not seeing here?

 

[Sabda]

I don’t know what your interpretations are, so I can’t really respond effectively yet. Perhaps if you share, we can both come to a common understanding of what God is saying to us in His word.

If you had checked my profile you would have known. In case you don’t want to check my profile it’s Catholic. Like said we both read the Bible but that doesn’t mean that my interpretation of the Bible is going to agree with yours.

 

[BibleTruth]

I’ve already joined the Church that is His Church. If you received a valid baptism, then you have already joined too, even if you are not presently in full union with it. I do sincerely hope to see you there eventually as well.

Peace,
-Robert

I was baptized as Jesus was…by immersion.

Matthew 3:16: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up (Greek - anabainō, meaning “ascend”) straightway (Greek - euthys, meaning “upright”) out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”

Is that what you mean by “valid baptism”?

I’m not even going to respond to the statement about seeing me “there eventually as well” but I only imagine you’re referencing the false teaching of Purgatory…although I could be presumptuous about imagining that.

 

[Sabda]

That name was given and taken on by men…not God.

Any church of God should use Scripture to prove any ecclesiastical point they dare to make and will teach the keeping His commandments. Just ask yourself, does your church fit that criteria?

In fact, according to Revelations 12:17, the dragon (the devil) “is wroth with at with the woman” (God’s true church as mentioned in verse 1) and that church is the one that “keeps God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus”. You can’t keep God’s commandments by changing them to fit your desires.

Revelation 19:10: “Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.”

Here are some interesting quotes from the Catholic church:

• “The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires (…) complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” -Leo VIII, «On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens», Encyclical letter, 1890.
• “The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.” Catholic National July 1895.
• “We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty” …Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894,
• “Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum).” -Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, p.26)

I say this with love, but how is this not blasphemy against the Almighty who created all of us? What are you not seeing here?

Have you checked all of those quotes out and read them in context? Do you truly understand what we believe? What name was taken on by men? If your referring to the name Catholic the roots of the word really can be found in Scriptures. It’s found in Acts 9:31 when read in the Greek and shows up in the writings of those who were taught by the Apostles themselves.

 

[Sabda]

I was baptized as Jesus was…by immersion.

Matthew 3:16: “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up (Greek - anabainō, meaning “ascend”) straightway (Greek - euthys, meaning “upright”) out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:”

Is that what you mean by “valid baptism”?

I’m not even going to respond to the statement about seeing me “there eventually as well” but I only imagine you’re referencing the false teaching of Purgatory…although I could be presumptuous about imagining that.

Actually I believe he is referring to the Trinitarian formula. If you were baptized with water and the Trinitarian formula than you are validly baptized.

 

[BibleTruth]

If you had checked my profile you would have known. In case you don’t want to check my profile it’s Catholic. Like said we both read the Bible but that doesn’t mean that my interpretation of the Bible is going to agree with yours.

Please forgive me, but this is my first day using this forum and honestly is my first time using any forum like this so I’m not familiar with the culture yet.

Reading the Bible is good…studying it is even better.

With all due respect, there’s nothing in your profile that indicates what your “interpretations” of the Bible are (unless I missed something…). Saying that you’re Catholic doesn’t really tell me much about how you understand the Bible. I was baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist religion (as an adult) because they believe what the Bible says. Like every church, there are some doctrinal issues that have caused separation, but when I have questions about anything, I go by what the Bible says.

To continue this discussion, I’ll just start with a question: What is your understanding of what happens to us after we die? What’s the reason for your answer?

 

[BibleTruth]

Actually I believe he is referring to the Trinitarian formula. If you were baptized with water and the Trinitarian formula than you are validly baptized.

I think we should clarify what “with water” means.

Yes, I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but “valid baptism”, as Christ was, strictly means to be submersed in water.

By the way, I believe that if anything, baptism is a memorial to Christ’s resurrection…not changing the Sabbath day from the seventh to the first day. 1 Peter 3:21 (NLT): And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[mercygate]

Mainly because of the dozens of Old Testament prophecies fulfilled amazingly and astronomically by Christ. Additionally, it’s the only book that identifies the Creator of the universe and it’s the only book that stands up to the lies of evolution. Also, it’s the only book that gives us a reason to have a seven-day week. Not only that, but it has stood the test of time and even though it was written by such a diverse group of individuals, ranging from pheasants to kings, it’s remarkably consistent.

There are other reasons, but these are just a few.

Do you believe it’s the word of God? If so, please share your reasons. Thanks.

Yes. I believe it is the inspired and inerrant Word of God, for many of the same reasons you do. Add to that the power of the ample manuscript evidence.

How did the table of contents of the New Testament get into the Bible?

 

[BibleTruth]

Have you checked all of those quotes out and read them in context? Do you truly understand what we believe? What name was taken on by men? If your referring to the name Catholic the roots of the word really can be found in Scriptures. It’s found in Acts 9:31 when read in the Greek and shows up in the writings of those who were taught by the Apostles themselves.

Catholic -

1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.
2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

[Origin: 1300–1350; ME < L catholicus < Gk katholikós general, equiv. to kathól(ou) universally (contr. of phrase katà hólou according to the whole; see cata-, holo-) + -ikos -ic]

Cata - a prefix meaning “down,” “against,” “back,” occurring originally in loanwords from Greek (cataclysm; catalog; catalepsy); on this model, used in the formation of other compound words (catagenesis; cataphyll).

holo - a combining form meaning “whole,” “entire,” used in the formation of compound words

ic - a suffix forming adjectives from other parts of speech, occurring originally in Greek and Latin loanwords

When I put that together, I read Catholic as meaning “against the entire”…but I’m no linguist…just a layman believer.

The root word for church in Acts 9:31 is “ekklesia”, meaning:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake
3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received
   into heaven

If you’re going to use #4, just keep in mind that a true Christian is a follower of Christ. In order to follow Christ, one shows their love for him by keeping his commandments.

And no, I don’t know the context of those quotes but I’d be grateful if you’d share them with me so I know going forward…thanks.

I read some of your Catechism to get an understanding of what you believe, but a lot of what I read was contrary to the Bible.

 

[BibleTruth]

Yes. I believe it is the inspired and inerrant Word of God, for many of the same reasons you do. Add to that the power of the ample manuscript evidence.

How did the table of contents of the New Testament get into the Bible?

By Catholics??

 

[mike00077]

This thread was very interesting and i enjoyed to read it

 

[po18guy]

Doug Batchelor preaches and teaches from the Bible, which is the only reference of Scripture any Christian should need. He reads from the same Scriptures that Jesus partially taught from (i.e. the Old Testament) along with the New Testament. He openly admits to being a Seventh-day Adventist (he’s the pastor of an SDA church in Sacramento, CA) although his Amazing Facts ministry is not associated with any religious denomination.

It’s understandable that anyone feeling they’re under attack will naturally be on the defensive and respond accordingly. From any of his presentations I’ve heard, he clearly states that he’s not attacking anyone in particular as someone here has mentioned. With that said, however, it’s important to note that he only presents what’s written in the Bible. In addition to showing where the Catholic church is represented in prophecy (in Revelations 13:1-10), he also points to the United States in the same chapter (vs. 11-18) although he confirms his patriotism to this country.

In studying the Bible, it’s important to confirm Scripture with Scripture to get a better understanding of the truth. In one of the responses to this strain of messages, someone wrote that there are several Scriptures that confirm Sunday as the Lord’s Day. I just ask…please show me one. The only reference to “The Lord’s Day” is in Revelations 1:10, but that doesn’t indicate what day of the week that was, so no one can stake a claim to that being any one holy day of worship. However, when Jesus spoke of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:8), he referred to himself being the “Lord, even of the Sabbath day” (the seventh day of the week…the day he customarily went to the Synagogue for worship). Additionally, in the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:10), God says the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord. These are but two Old and New Testament references where God clearly indicates what day of the week was sanctified (set apart) as holy; see all of Hebrews 4 for additional truth.

For anyone who would try to use Colossians 2:14-16 as an abolishment of the seventh-day Sabbath, Paul was writing about Moses ceremonial laws (written on paper by Moses and done away with by the blood of Christ) and not God’s Moral Law (written on stone by God’s finger). Some may try to use Romans 14:5-6, but a closer look at this does in no way authorizes a change to the day of Sabbath observance. In reading a letter in the Catholic Extension Magazine, the Catholic Church “under the Blessing of Pope Pius XII” admits to making the change under their own authority…but this was never a commandment that was “Thus saith the LORD”, which should be where all of us get our direction and instruction.

I don’t agree with any religion basing their theology in anything written by humans, other than the divinely inspired Word of God (this includes SDAs, Mormons, etc.). But when something is clear in the Bible, I do find it difficult to see why there are so many different religions and denominations amongst followers of Christ, who was the object of the entire Bible. I believe there will one day be a unification of all of God’s people (because the Bible says there will) and we will all come together to worship Him in truth. Revelations 18:4 (KJV): And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God has sincere believers in all churches and I pray that we all seek Him for an understanding of His word and not the traditions of men (Mark 7:7-8). Matthew 7:13-14 (NLT): You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. Matthew 5:19 (NLT): So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God’s laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

When the mark of the beast (which, according to the Bible is an issue of worship) is offered, who will you choose to obey…God or His adversary?

God bless…

I was going to say something, but what’s the point?

 

[Sabda]

Catholic -

I read some of your Catechism to get an understanding of what you believe, but a lot of what I read was contrary to the Bible.

Yes, I am Catholic and my beliefs are that of the Catholic Church with the Pope as the Vicar of Christ.

I would be interested to know where you got your definitions from.

From this dictionary Catholic means

Main Entry: cath·o·lic
Pronunciation: \ˈkath-lik, ˈka-thə-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English catholik, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French catholique, from Late Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos universal, general, from katholou in general, from kata by + holos whole — more at cata-, safe
Date: 14th century
1 aoften capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the church universal boften capitalized : of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it ccapitalized : roman catholic
2: comprehensive, universal; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests

No I don’t know about all the quotes you used but I know that a lot of people like to throw quotes around with out looking at them in context of the rest of the paragraph or work. Often time the quotes are taken out of context, so throwing quotes around is useless without the context.

If you have looked at the Catechism than you would have noticed all the quotes from Scripture that are in it. Again this gets down to personal interpretations of Scripture. How do KNOW that your interpretation is right and mine is wrong. Obviously I’m going to disagree with you so how do we solve that problem?

 

[BibleTruth]

I was going to say something, but what’s the point?

Why not?

 

[mercygate]

By Catholics??

Yup. Now even if you think that it wasn’t “Catholics”, it was still put together by a Church that enjoys unbroken doctrinal and historic continuity with the Catholic Church.

For me, the canon was the deal breaker. Once the lightbulb went on that the Church gave us the Bible (as an Orthodox friend tossed off in conversation one day), then I had to deal with the fact that “my” Word of God had arisen in a living organism: that it was not a free-standing self-interpreting entity.

When did the doctrine that Scripture interprets itself arise? I understand that, hermeneutically, we balance Scripture with Scripture – and indeed, the whole patristic typological method is the prototypical example of that thinking – but the declaration that Scripture interprets itself? Even as a Protestant, I never heard that.