Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[Patrick_Murebil]

**Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.**

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So please correct me if I’m misreading what you posted directly above, but the birth spoken of which the church gives birth to is that of the saints,… a “holy progency to Christ”…convicted sinners converted to Christ…is that correct or am I misreading what Matthew Henry says above?

That would be correct (except it is “progeny”).

Hi Andrew!

So I am to understand you correctly that Jesus is the child to whom the Church gives birth in Revelation 12?

Hey Patrick,

Yes, but probably not in the sense that you may be thinking. The “church” (God’s people) was represented in the Old Testament as the “daughters of Zion”. Remember I stated that a church is a body of believers. In order to be a believer, there would have to be something to believe in; this would be God, His Word, His love, His righteousness and all that He is.

God created man to represent Him on this earth. The original message, the “Word” that included pure and righteous living came from Him and was to be carried out in us. Adam failed then, in a sense, Noah failed (after the flood - Genesis 9:20-23), both interestingly enough by way of fruit, which is when God chose Abraham’s seed (the nation of Israel) to represent Him on this earth before all pagan nations that worshiped idols and not the true and living God. The rest of the Old Testament is filled with accounts of their failures which is why their time was decreed in Daniel 9:24-27 with the “70 weeks” that ended with the stoning of Stephen (when the gospel message began going to the rest of the world).

The message gave birth to Christ (“the Word became flesh” - John 1:14) who was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant but where everyone in the OT failed, Christ prevailed.

Hi dj and Andrew,

Wow Andrew, you presented A LOT of information in your posts in addition to your answer to my question regarding who The Woman and Child are in Revelation 12. It gets kind of confusing, at least for me, to get into all these other topics while trying to resolve this one fisrt question regarding The Woman and The Child of Revelation 12.

So I ask, that in the midst of our excitement and haste to share, teach, and understand what we are discussing, we slow down a little and focus on this first topic of The Woman and The Child in Revelation 12. No need for us all to rush off into “Babylon”…lol Let’s slow down and focus so we can resolve the evident confusion here.

And here is why I’m confused. Being a former Seventh-day Adventist myself, and here discussing this topic with two current Seventh-day Adventists, you have both told me that the Bible interprets itself, and that it is evident that a woman symbolizes a church, particularly here in Revelation 12.

And then you both go on to present to me two different interpretations, as shown in your quotes above.

1. The woman (the church) gives birth to the man child (the progeny (spelled it correctly this time:thumbsup:…all the saints, those convicted sinners converted to Christ)
2. The woman (a body of believers, but more accurately the message of God that they believe in) gives birth to the man child (in this case Jesus Christ).

Do you understand why I’m confused by two seperate interpreations provided by two individuals from the same church who say the Bible interprets itself? If that is the case are you two using different Bibles?

And then I go back and read the actual verses of scripture from Revelation 12 and they appear to contradict certain aspects of what both of you have shared with me.

So all I ask is that if the three of us can discuss this and focus on The Woman and The Child and try to stay on that topic specifically?

Thanks!
God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The Woman is not first century Israel because they rejected the male child and tried to kill him at birth, the Woman is not the Church because the church did not come before the male child, the Male Child gave life to the Church; So who is this Woman that gave birth to this male child?

In biology, yes; in typology, not necessarily true.

Most importantly, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, He reveals that the Church comes after, not before, His birth.

Matthew 16: 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Whether you believe that Peter is “this rock” or that Jesus is “this rock”, it is clear that the building of Jesus’ Church to which Jesus refers in verse 18, is a future work. Jesus still needs to breathe on the disciples giving them the Holy Spirit, make them apostles, and send them forth into all nations baptizing believers in the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit.

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

Do you understand why I’m confused by two seperate interpreations provided by two individuals from the same church who say the Bible interprets itself?

Since I never gave an interpretation I’m really confused! And then this nonsense on top of it! If you hold up a coin and I see heads and he sees tails are we wrong? Why we and not ye?

 

[djconklin]

Most importantly, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, He reveals that the Church comes after, not before, His birth.

Or, your definition of “church” is too narrow. If you’ll check I think you’ll find that Paul and Christ applied it to the body of all true believers.

Who is the woman?
Who is the child born of the woman?
Who are the stars cast down from heaven to earth?
Who is the dragon that seeks to devour the child?

Very simple questions. What do the Scriptures say?

Putting it in chronological order reveals a Greek type of thinking, not the Semitic that Christ and Paul were using. Walk in their shoes and then you can go a mile and understand.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

In biology, yes; in typology, not necessarily true.

Gabriel of 12;

Very good, your are familiar with the study of typology? Could it be that we are both right then? That the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth to the Male Child Jesus, and in the next content the Woman (Bride of Christ) the Church who labors by Martyrs, sacrifices, Saints who suffer the persecution and wail aloud in pain as she (Church) labored to give birth to Jesus to all who would hear the Church?

Then Mary is the Woman assumed into heaven clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars. When Revelations is recorded, Mary has already been assumed into heaven both body and soul, John the revelator reveals this in Visions from God of Heaven, where John locates the “Ark of the Covenant” in heaven with the Woman “Virgin Mary” because the Church has not been taken up to heaven yet, until Jesus returns for his Bride.

Peace be with you

 

[djconklin]

Gabriel of 12;

Very good, your are familiar with the study of typology?

That’s kind of insulting. Did you think I just made the term up out of thin air?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That’s kind of insulting. Did you think I just made the term up out of thin air?

Gabriel of 12;

Did not mean to insult you, this text also applies to the study of Gematra, I ask again, are you familiar with this study of Gematra? The question posed is not indicating an insult. If praising you for being familiar with typology posed with a question? insults you; then it appears we communicate from very different perspectives.

If you apply typology to the text; how is it you exclude the Blessed Virgin Mary? Ancient Israel? the new Israel? and Greek mythology? Or do you claim to be giving the first century interpretation?

Peace be with you

 

[djconklin]

If praising you for being familiar with typology posed with a question? insults you; then it appears we communicate from very different perspectives.

Since I brought it up and there was no indication that I didn’t know what I was talking about then your “question” was intended as an insult. Unless, you were way too concise (whistling and glancing away–been there, done that!) and worded things poorly–that happens frequently on forums.

If you apply typology to the text; how is it you exclude the Blessed Virgin Mary?

Because there is no indication in any text that Mary is to be understood typologically.

Ancient Israel?

Who said I excluded it?

the new Israel? and Greek mythology?

See previous remark about the Mary.

Or do you claim to be giving the first century interpretation?

How would they have understood the text? That is what counts. We are to search the Scriptures as the Bereans of old did.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Since I brought it up and there was no indication that I didn’t know what I was talking about then your “question” was intended as an insult. Unless, you were way too concise (whistling and glancing away–been there, done that!) and worded things poorly–that happens frequently on forums.

Gabriel of 12;

You are at liberty to be percieved as you wish. Believe me, had I wished to insult you, there is nothing preventing me here. So please dont play symantics with my intention or words. My yes means yes and my no means no, if it wasn’t clarified to you, then maybe you missed the question? Or is this a Doug Batchelor tactic being used to side step the issue at hand, by attacking the point of order? Besides I believe we are discussing a mute point. So I will yeild to your close here, and move on from your intellectual perceptions of how you are percieved falsely of me.

djconklin;
Because there is no indication in any text that Mary is to be understood typologically.

Gabriel of 12;
If you believe this is so, then maybe the study of “Typology” is not warranted here. From your statement it appears you have misguided interpretations of “Typology”. Mary is cover to cover in the bible not only as first person also by “Typology”.

djconklin;
How would they have understood the text? That is what counts. We are to search the Scriptures as the Bereans of old did.

Gabriel of 12;

So if we are to search the scriptures as the Bereans did, who is the one to confirm your interpretation is correct?

Jesus after his resurrection “revealed ALL the scriptures” to his disciples. The Catholic church has the interpretation of scriptures from Jesus and the Apostles. Where do SDA’s get their interpretations of scripture? after searching the scriptures?

Peace be with you

 

[djconklin]

Gabriel of 12;

So if we are to search the scriptures as the Bereans did, who is the one to confirm your interpretation is correct?

Not who, what. Scripture is the control.

 

[andrea3710]

Hello

I am 7th Day Adventist and will become Catholic as soon somebody convinces me that Catholic doctrine is according to that of Bible and of God. If anyone convinces me that I should listen to the Pope rather than what God says, and that I should confess my sins before the priests and they are the ones who have power to forgive sins who are also men of sins themselves and of that we can all read and hear in the news-and that I should call these men Father.
Being Adventist I do not care about the names of denominations I only care about what God says and what Bible says. I see lots of traditions of men in the Catholic faith, things that are not important for making relationship with our Savior, things implemented by men not by God. For example , Rosary-where did that come from, who needs it, why would I need it, Is it important because the doctrine teachers say so? Repetitive prayers-why that? Change of the God’s law?!
I really wish somebody would show me in Bible where Sunday is said to be the Lord’s Day. Mary, Apostles…they were all Sabbath keepers. If anyone changed Sabbath to Sunday as to be kept as a seventh day I guess it would be said and shown in the New Testament but still after Jesus was nailed to the cross Sunday was called as simple as the first day-as always. If Jesus was to abolish Sabbath as the day of the rest would not He said something about it, why would He say then that we should pray our flight would not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
The Ten commandments were not only for the Jews but it is the Universal law and not a human has right to alter it. Not one title not one jot.
If you are surprised what Doug Batchelor says I recommend you to watch Walter Veith. He says a lot more and I would like you to watch it and make your own conclusions. Dig into Bible for yourself and see if what anyone of us says is right or wrong.
I hate to see that all the glory Jesus deserves is so spoiled and given to anyone you people decide to whom it should be given- many different saints, to Mary Jesus’ mother, she even has her shrines, she is called Quinn of Heaven and whether you like it or not it resembles to the kind of worship we can read of in Jeremiah 44:17 ( it is easy to change names, from Jupiter to Peter or from some pagan goddess to Mary) and I do not hear Jesus’ name very much if at all, I listen to Catholic radio every time I drive from home to work and at work too and very little of Jesus I hear but of Mary I hear a lot. The one who died for us, our only Savior and redeemer, our prince who loves us so much is so neglected. Mary is last mentioned in the Bible in Acts and she was not mentioned again. She was great woman and had that honor to give birth to our Savior but she is not the point of the salvation plan, she is not the one we should pray because she is not the one who can save us, neither she is the one who died for us, why is it so hard to direct our prayers directly to Jesus who only has this power to forgive our sins and to redeem us.
If I get convinced that I should kiss the statues and to believe if I go to Fatima or some other places that my sins are forgiven even up to three month, If you convince me that baptism of children in a way Catholic church does it is according to the Bible I am becoming one of you.
I am more secure following Christ, obeying Sabbaths like He did, baptizing the way He did and living the kind of live He and apostles did then to follow what some priests say who one day say one thing and another say the different.
I would really be careful whom I would defend. Are not historical evidences enough for you?
My boss is a nun whom nobody likes because of her bad character. Another nun who works with me said about my boss nun that she is a devil. So do you rely on them and on what they say?http://liberalslikechrist.org/NaziPriestsSaluteHitler.jpg
Dig into Bible I tell you and pray to Jesus only and He will give you power to understand and will open your eyes. You chose to close your ears and eyes on things and evidences given to you, you say how Doug Batchelor quotes from here and there so why anyone of you does not take the quoted books and see it for yourself?
I did not bother to read all the posts, I read the few posts in the beginning and my answer is actually on the posts I read.

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugo.stepinac.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm&usg=__Z_quvLwTdPFnqIZb8hOGvCkDDzY=&h=203&w=242&sz=14&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=5X_wKXtsCelm0M:&tbnh=92&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcatholic%2Bchurch%2Band%2Bfascism%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Greetings

 

[kyria]

I thought like you once andrea3710, then Christ showed me the Truth. Would I rely on nuns? Well I’d rely on them over 7th Day Adventists. I had some as relatives by marriage. They called themselves Christian but never acted like one. My former father in law was raised a 7th Dayer, and he acted like the devil.

I wouldn’t trust the 7th Day Adventist Church that raises some of it’s members to act like the devil if I were you. I mean a few persons who act evil obviously mean the whole religion stinks doesn’t it? If a nun you think acts evil is reflective of our dear sisters, then naturally I can make the same argument of your members can I not?

 

[djconklin]

They called themselves Christian but never acted like one. My former father in law was raised a 7th Dayer, and he acted like the devil.

We don’t have proof of all that, but that’s why we say most SDA’s won’t make it. The church doesn’t raise its members–their parents did that. The best any church can do is to teach them God’s way.

If a nun you think acts evil is reflective of our dear sisters, then naturally I can make the same argument of your members can I not?

Not if you know better. If I thought like that I’d never become a Catholic because of all the lies told here and the lack of an apology when they got caught. It should never be about joining a denomination; instead the question should be are you joined with Christ? Can you say Gal. 2:20 is true for you like Paul did?

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

 

[andrea3710]

Kyria,

I just gave you an examples on what the Catholic church stood and also showed you what Catholic church blessed-they were involved in wars and many political issues.In my country you can see them everywhere especially mingling with politicians and promoting certain political parties even suggesting in church for whom people should vote,they are involved in political issues and bless evil doings. By showing you how nuns behave and thus is tolerated you people still go and confess your sins to them and they should probably confess their sins to you. As I said in my post I am 7th Day Adventist because I see logic in their doctrines but I am not concerned with church,denomination or people inside. It does not say anywhere in Bible Adventist,Jehova’s Witnesses,Baptists or Catholics are those who will be saved and will go to heaven. The ones who will be saved are the ones who keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus (so far I see that in other denominations the ten commandments are either changed or not being mentioned at all), they are those who denied themselves and followed Christ even into death for the truth.
I agree that idolatry does not involve only statues we see in many churches today and kissing and crying in front of the statues,idol can be our own self ,our ego if we put it in front of Christ. God said He is a jealous God and does not tolerate anything to be put above Him, lovers of themselves one can found in any religion even among adventists and they will all stand in front of God the same. I do not actually want to promote any church,I want to promote Jesus and want Him to have the glory He deserves. I wish people would put away their idolatry,traditions of men and follow Jesus and live the life He lived and if they did they could not go wrong. Jesus does not want anyone to walk on their knees for miles,he does not want your money for blessings and for your sins to be forgiven . He wants your hearts and minds.
Do not put your trust in men. Study the Bible for yourself and put to the test what anyone preaches including me and pray directly to Jesus for wisdom and open heart to understand what He tells you.

 

[andrea3710]

Another thing…I do not mean to argue on issues what Peter’s name means, is he little rock or big rock.Paul is clear in 1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.” We can’t look to a mere human being as the foundation of the Christian church! “It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.” (Psalm 118:8). Like David said, “The Lord is my rock” (Psalm 18:2) “And who is a rock, except our God?” (Psalm 18:31).

Jesus never said he will build Catholic church on that rock or Adventist church.It is ridiculous to discuss that.There is one church and it is in us,that temple is in us,He also said that we are His priesthood (therefore to get back to what I said in my first posts we can confess sins to each others but we cannot take role of Jesus and forgive the sins so I do not see why would I have to go to priest to confess my sins when he can come to me too).If we follow Jesus and His example if we are the ones who keep the commandments we are that church,that clean church without additions to it,without traditions,without rosary beads,without luxury,without idols and statues,without holy waters and other abominations of pagan origin.
Why making things complicated out of something so simple. Jesus died for all and made it so simple that anyone who calls on His name can be saved,calling His name not names of some saints or even His earthly mother Mary. The prayers directed to anyone but Jesus are wasted and never blessed but can be answered by Jesus strongest enemy,Father of all lies,Satan. That is why many will be deceived.

 

[andrea3710]

Kyria ,
I want to add that I am aware that there are wolves among Adventists.I know it better than anyone for I grew up like one and seen everything,some even ruined my life but they will have to answer for it,still I do not condemn the doctrine of the church which accuses such members. I do not consider myself a devil and never ever anyone described me as such. I have always been the best worker,the most dedicated in anything I would do,I would give myself to my patients and anyone who would need my help…I have been shy and always target of others and always used up by others, so I guess we are not all devils and raised as such. Church has a good doctrine only not everyone follows it. Despite what other people say about me I only care what God thinks of me and I am scared of that. I remember the verse where it says “I did this and that for you and Jesus replies …I really do not know you” . It says in revelation that there will be harvest,spiritual of course,on earth. Wow to those who will be partakers of winepress of the wrath of God. To call pastors in church Fathers and kissing their hands and acting like they are above me is out of the question because they are equal with me and everyone else. We should all be brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[BibleTruth]

Hi dj and Andrew,

Wow Andrew, you presented A LOT of information in your posts in addition to your answer to my question regarding who The Woman and Child are in Revelation 12. It gets kind of confusing, at least for me, to get into all these other topics while trying to resolve this one fisrt question regarding The Woman and The Child of Revelation 12.

So I ask, that in the midst of our excitement and haste to share, teach, and understand what we are discussing, we slow down a little and focus on this first topic of The Woman and The Child in Revelation 12. No need for us all to rush off into “Babylon”…lol Let’s slow down and focus so we can resolve the evident confusion here.

And here is why I’m confused. Being a former Seventh-day Adventist myself, and here discussing this topic with two current Seventh-day Adventists, you have both told me that the Bible interprets itself, and that it is evident that a woman symbolizes a church, particularly here in Revelation 12.

And then you both go on to present to me two different interpretations, as shown in your quotes above.

1. The woman (the church) gives birth to the man child (the progeny (spelled it correctly this time:thumbsup:…all the saints, those convicted sinners converted to Christ)
2. The woman (a body of believers, but more accurately the message of God that they believe in) gives birth to the man child (in this case Jesus Christ).

Do you understand why I’m confused by two seperate interpreations provided by two individuals from the same church who say the Bible interprets itself? If that is the case are you two using different Bibles?

And then I go back and read the actual verses of scripture from Revelation 12 and they appear to contradict certain aspects of what both of you have shared with me.

So all I ask is that if the three of us can discuss this and focus on The Woman and The Child and try to stay on that topic specifically?

Thanks!
God bless all!!!

Hey Patrick,

I can appreciate your concerns and the points you raised. I don’t know DJ’s background and I’ve never heard that interpretation before but I can also appreciate that people have differing understandings of various parts of Scripture. I also know that many scriptures have a dual application. Additionally, I do not claim to have a complete understanding of each and every prophecy or what the Bible is saying in every instance. For this passage in particular, I believe it’s what I stated.

In order to discuss this in a meaningful way, I’ll address the passage text by text using the NIV as best as I can for now. Due to limitations, I’ll have to send it in multiple posts. If new light is revealed to me, I have no problem in addressing it in this forum.

Verse 1: A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

• This is God’s pure message, clothed in the righteousness of heavenly light. It’s the same message that has existed since Jesus was promised to mankind in Genesis 3:15. In Malachi 4:2 (which I believe has a dual application of Jesus’ first and second comings), we see that the “sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings”. Those who live in this light are believers in this message and are God’s people. Twelve (and multiples of 12) is a number throughout the Bible that refers to God’s authority and His church. There are 12 stars representing the 12 disciples who initially took this pure message to the world. Jesus said to His disciples in Matthew 5:14 that “Ye are the light of the world…let your light shine before men”. In John 5:12, Jesus says that He is the light of the world and that whoever follows Him will never walk in darkness. We see an association here between Jesus and those who follow Him with respect to being the light of the world. Just as God used the children of Israel to be His witness to the world (all surrounding pagan nations), He used the 12 disciples to do the same after Jesus’ ascension to heaven.

Verse 2: She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

• John saw that this “woman” was about to give birth but it would be a painful experience. John’s vision is apparently looking back in time.

Verse 3: Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

• Here we see the dragon (later described as Satan in verse 9), but notice he is in heaven which suggests again that John is seeing events of the past.

Verse 4: His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

• We also see in verse 9 that Satan took some of the angels with him when her was forced out of heaven. This text is verse 4 suggests that this third of the stars is a third of the angels that were in heaven. Once Satan was cast down to the earth, he positioned himself to interfere with the plan to offer Jesus to the world. We know that this was attempted through Herod’s efforts while using the authority of the Roman Empire (Matthew 2:13-18).

Verse 5: She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

• The second Psalm sheds clear light on who the one is who will rule all nations with an iron scepter (see verse 9 specifically). In looking at the entire Psalm, you can see that the author is talking about Jesus (in verse 2 he refers to Him as the “Anointed One”).

(1 of 3).

 

[BibleTruth]

Verse 6: The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

• At some point the woman fled into the desert (“wilderness”, KJV) for 1260 prophetic days. We could take the word “desert” literally, but in looking at the Greek word, “erēmos”, we see definitions of “solitary, lonely, desolate, uninhabited”. The application of the word in this sense (as is the case in Revelation 17:3) indicates that this message/church/belief system was rejected or had become an outcast for a period of time. The period of 1260 days, again, could be taken literally, but when you take in consideration the time prophecy in Daniel 7:25 that refers to a “times, times and half a time” (time = 360 days, times = 720 days; half a time = 180 days, totaling 1260 days), we see that this is speaking of the same time period.

I know this is off-topic, but it’s to highlight a point. Daniel 7 is talking about the Antichrist and all throughout Daniel, he uses what’s known and the “year for a day” principle when speaking about future events (see Ezekiel 4:5-6, Numbers 14:34 for reference). He states that this power will rule for, what’s interpreted as, 1260 years, which can’t be done by one person (as could the case be if it were 1260 literal days). If anyone has any questions on this, in particular, I would prefer to address them in a separate post so we can stay on track.

In summary, this “message” went into hiding for a period of 1260 literal years under the protection of God.

Verses 7-9: And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

• Obviously here, Satan still had access to heaven (as he did in the book of Job chapters 1 & 2) but there was “war” in heaven. The Greek word used here, “polemos”, suggests this could have been a verbal confrontation (among it’s definitions is: “a dispute, strife, quarrel”). We know that Satan is the great accuser and this verse could be representative of Satan making accusations against God as he did in Zechariah 3 and in Job. I can’t draw any firm conclusions as to the nature of this war, but we know that Satan lost and as a result, him and his angels were cast to the earth.

Verses 10-12: Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

• The salvation and power being referenced here can be seen in Romans 5:6; it’s the salvation and power that we all have through the death of Jesus that defeated sin. Through our relationship with Christ, we have access to the same power source to defeat sin in our lives and to receive the gift of salvation that is available to all of us.

We also see again in this passage that Satan, the “accuser”, had been cast to this earth. We then see that there were some who were able to overcome Satan by drawing on the power source of Christ to the point where they sacrificed their lives. The heavens can rejoice because Satan was cast to the earth at the death of Christ, no longer giving him access to heaven. Additionally, I believe the heavens rejoiced because it was clear that God’s plan of salvation actually worked because people ultimately overcame Satan through the Blood of the Lamb (Jesus). But at the time of Christ’s death, when Satan was cast out, it didn’t mean good news for us on earth because Satan knew at that time that he didn’t have a lot of time left to draw people away from that power source of Christ.

(2 of 3)

 

[BibleTruth]

Verse 13: When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

• This adds to the point that Satan would attack those who believe in God’s true message, now symbolized as God’s people after the time of Jesus’ ascension.

Verse 14: The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

• This is when the woman was now in hiding during the 1260 years. History records the millions of people (some say upwards of 50 to 100 million) who died because they held firm to God’s word and would not accept anything false as a substitute. Essentially, God’s true followers went into hiding.

Verses 15-16: Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.

• Many fled to the hills and mountains but were pursued by state forces under religious authority (compare to the events surrounding the birth of Jesus). In some cases, God protected them by performing miracles on behalf of those in flight by natural events that hindered the pursuit of the encroaching offenders, but again, many fell to the sword. The bottom line was, God’s truth was not going to be stopped regardless of Satan’s attempts to use men to stop it.

Verse 17: Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

• Seeing that God’s truth could not be stopped, Satan was angry at God’s people and would wage war against the “remnant” of those who held onto God’s truths. In order for something to be a remnant, there had to be an original. The original in the context of this passage is the pure message of God, unadulterated by the contamination that Satan would try to infect it with. This remnant group of believers would keep God’s commandments and would have the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10).

It was necessary to include the entire chapter to cover the context of the point the vision was making, so thank you for bearing with me. In light of this passage, I think it speaks to your point of the differences in interpretations. I know that it may be frustrating to hear many variations of prophetic interpretations because, even though there are dual applications to many prophecies, not everyone can be right. The bottom line however is not understanding prophetic times and symbols…the bottom line is obedience to God. Satan’s objective is to distract our worship and our obedience to God because in doing so, he (Satan) receives it which he’s wanted all along. Obedience to God only happens through faith in and surrender to Jesus Christ, allowing Him to work within us. It’s not about legalism…it’s about our love for God (“If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15). Through the power that comes only from Christ, we’re able to defeat Satan the same way Jesus did on the cross so long ago.

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[BibleTruth]

Most importantly, from the mouth of Jesus Himself, He reveals that the Church comes after, not before, His birth.

Matthew 16: 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Whether you believe that Peter is “this rock” or that Jesus is “this rock”, it is clear that the building of Jesus’ Church to which Jesus refers in verse 18, is a future work. Jesus still needs to breathe on the disciples giving them the Holy Spirit, make them apostles, and send them forth into all nations baptizing believers in the name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit.

God bless all!!!

The Holy Spirit’s work existed long before the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ. One example is seen in the inspiration of the Old Testament Bible writers that even Jesus quoted when teaching. The work of the disciples/apostles is the same as the Israelites of old…to be God’s witnesses on this earth (Isaiah 44:8; 49:6; Acts 1:8). This duty is now the responsibility of those in God’s remnant church who, themselves, must remain faithful…particularly when laws are put in place that will challenge our love for Him.

Some will be sifted out of this remnant group because they wouldn’t haven’t “practiced what they preached” before that time of trouble comes. I believe some feel they’ll be saved because they claim membership to a particular denomination, but that is not the case. What saves us is our faith in Christ and the faith we have in Him produces works that are worthy of the reward He has waiting for us (Revelation 22:12). When the mark of the beast is enforced (which Revelation 13 identifies as forced worship), those who remain obedient to God will receive His seal, but it may cost some of us our lives. Those who don’t remain or become faithful to God will receive the devil’s mark and will share in God’s wrath.

It’s completely your choice to hold to the view that God’s truth is only something that existed after Jesus made the statements you’ve cited and I won’t criticize you for your beliefs. My commission as a disciple of Christ is to present His gospel and teach what I’ve learned in a loving manner. The overall point Jesus was making is that the old system of sacrifices in order to receive salvation would be done away with once the events that lead up to Acts 1:8 took place. Although the process changed, God’s truths will always remain the same. No longer would people have to sacrifice animals as a symbol of their faith (i.e. “works”), they would only have to have faith in the atoning sacrifice of the True Lamb of God.

Notice that Jesus made this statement to Peter immediately after Peter expressed faith that Jesus was the Christ, the “Son of the Living God” (Matthew 16:16). It’s this type of faith that the future generations of God’s children were to have. Using this passage for other means is manufacturing doctrine.

Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ and this has been the message since He was first introduced in Genesis 3:15.