Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[Gabriel_of_12]

Your history of the Adventist church is not accurate. The Great Disappointment in 1844 was a misunderstanding of the Millerites, the followers of William Miller. He was not a Seventh-day Adventist but instead was a baptist. After the disappointment of 1844, people who were still faithful to Christ searched deeper into the Scriptures to realize that the 2300 prophetic day (literal year) prophecy of Daniel 8 didn’t speak to Jesus’ Second Coming but instead, referred to when the heavenly sanctuary would be cleansed…in other words, the anti-typical Day of Atonement. If you read Revelation 10, you can actually see how this bitter-sweet experience was prophesied about. Within this same prophecy is the 490-year prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, so to dispute its relevance would be to dispute the arrival of the Messiah, which I don’t think you do. After all, you’re not Jewish, right?

Gabriel of 12;
Boy there you go again, incorrectly misquoting me; I did not give you a history of SDA, I generalized the “Adventist movement” which includes Mormons, Seventh day, Jehovah Witness. Every one of these made false prophecies that did not come to pass. The conflict arises by the name changes, and the changes of doctrine and founders.

Bible Truth;
From these events (in 1844) came the believers who ultimately formed the Seventh-day Adventist church in 1863. From what I’ve learned, they didn’t want to even have a formal name but had to do so in order to own property and so on. It would be difficult for you to learn this in Catholicism because, to my understanding, they don’t believe in the heavenly sanctuary (although it’s referenced in the Bible). They believe in an earthly priesthood where the Bible clearly states in Hebrews 8 that Jesus is now our High Priest and He is ministering on our behalf in the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary and has been doing so since 1844.

Gabriel of 12;

Why do you make such blatent false accusations here. We Catholics celebrate in the heavenly banquet in the wedding feast of the lamb at every Mass. In the Catholic Mass in a sentence is the “on earth as it is in heaven” these two meet in the Liturgy of the Word, and Liturgy of the Eucharist. Andrew you have been grossly misinformed about the Catholic priesthood. Our earthly priesthood is in full communion with Jesus High Priesthood, that is why we have the Sacraments that Jesus instituted on earth to be celebrated on earth as it is in heaven. Let me just say this, from your comment of what you have been taught about the 2000 year old Catholic priesthood is a distorted view of the Truth. If I were you, I would look into these misconceptions you have been taught, please learn of the Truth before you attack it like Saul mistakenly did against Jesus church of whom Jesus claimed to be his body, Saul was persecuting.

Bible Truth
I don’t want to address your last comment because I’m not exactly sure that you meant to say some of the things that you wrote. In light of the unfortunate things done by Catholic priests to children, I don’t think bringing them into the discussion helps your argument in any way.

Thank you for the offer to teach me Catholic tradition, but I respectfully decline. Jesus warns us against following man’s traditions over God’s word.

Take care,

Andrew

Gabriel of 12;

If the negative scandals of our priests commits you from discussing Truth compared to wha you have heard, I am sure we can both learn something here.

I was not asking you to follow Apostolic Tradition as the bible teaches, I was responding to your request of showing Catholic apostolic Tradition in the bible. But only if you let me know what you think is man made traditions, and I probably would have taken you directly to the scriptures, or showed you the difference between Apostolic Tradition and what is cultural, disciplines and or rites, many non catholics confuse these with Apostolic Traditions, the formers can change, the later cannot.

Peace be with you

 

[Hisalone]

Gabriel of 12;

Truth be told here, the Catholic church had no authority to excercise captial punishment on a soverign Kings subject. Here is the confusion of your bias history. The Catholic Kings or princess restored ordered not the Catholic church. When you view history, truthfully see without bias towards the Catholic church and see truthfully who is the one restoring order yes, these Kings or princess may have been Catholics, but they were not the Catholic church which is a common misunderstanding from bias historians.

Peace be with you

Wow the very same polemic used that the Jews didnt crucify Christ the Romans did. Yes the Jews and the RCC used the civil rulers of the time to carry out their desires.

 

[andrea3710]

Hello Patrick,
What you said was just an human interpretation or justification of rosary use and I searched the whole Bible for words rosary or beads and found nothing. Have you ever heard of Moses and other prophets use it in their prayers or even Solomon or David whose prayers are known. Have you heard Apostles use it or speak of it or talking of it’s need.I am sure you did not because they did not care about inventions of men.Their church was pure and not filled with traditions of men which suffocate the true faith and something so simple becomes sinister and complicated.What I am trying to say here is that men invented things,added to the basic faith,made so many things which are totally not necessary for salvation.
You tell me that rosary is old,older then me and the SDA church,I have trees in my garden that are older than me so am I supposed to religiously respect them.I have mind and foremost I have Bible which is a mirror by which I can see what is wrong and what is good. What is of God and what is of some sinister origin. You may consider my comments devilish and that even does not hurt my feelings because it is not important what people think but what is truth. I know that if I follow Jesus I cannot go wrong but if I follow you men and your traditions I can go very wrong because human traditions are a door to Satan’s tricks.
[SIGN]Prayer is such a personal expression of a person’s intimate relationship with God, and no one should put down another’s prayer life…even if they do not understand it.[/SIGN]
I read rosary prayers even before I became member here. I noticed that rosary is like reading some stories, many of them that you call prayers do not look like prayers but stories from the Bible but OK, if anyone decides to pray the Bible one can pray Bible although I do not find any examples as such in Bible either …another and foremost thing I do not agree with is that you pray to Mary, and nowhere in the Bible ever anyone prayed to any human, never any of apostles said we should pray to anyone but God and that only mediator between God and people is Jesus Christ, there is no need for others. By these false teachings people’s sincere prayers are not accepted by God but are welcomed by His enemy and that is what makes me sad. I wish we would lay aside my denomination because I do not depend on church and I do not base my faith and doctrine on church but God and His Word. What I stand for is pure and basic teachings of first apostolic church. Apostle Peter and all the others never allowed any attention to be bestowed on them but on Jesus .When they did miracles they said “ why do you marvel at this or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness….” –as we can see it here they rejected any attention be given to them, all the glory they gave to God. I am sure they never changed and what you do today and your prayers directed to so many dead saints are repulsive to God and would be repulsive to apostles for the origins of such practices are not of what they were teaching people in those times. They warned the church of some new teachings that will enter the true church.

 

[andrea3710]

In the Bible, Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us. She said herself that she needed a “Saviour” (Lk. 1:47), and she even had to offer a sacrifice for her sins in Luke 2:24. Jesus was only her “firstborn” son, according to Matthew 1:25, because she later had other children as well (Mt. 13:55; Gal. 1:19; Psa. 69:8). There’s only ONE mediator between God and men, and it isn’t Mary (I Tim. 2:5). The last time we hear from Mary in the Bible she is praying WITH the disciples, not being prayed to BY the disciples (Acts 1:14). The Bible never exalts Mary above anyone else. Neither should we.
Roman Catholics believe that Mary, the mother of Jesus, remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and was sinless all of her life and we can read different in Matthew 1;24-25. She is worshiped in the Catholic church as the “Mother of God” and the “Queen of Heaven.” St. Bernard stated that she was crowned “Queen of Heaven” by God the Father, and that she currently sits upon a throne in Heaven making intercession for Christians.
All this are false teachings, foreign to early Christians and they drive people away from true worship of God. This veneration of Mary derives from Rome not from any of Apostles or God himself. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:5-6). Christ promised, “COME UNTO ME, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28). The Bible nowhere invites men to come to Mary or to trust Mary or to pray to Mary.
If we were to pray to Mary I am sure Jesus would tell us that and apostles would too.
You are standing on very tricky ground which leads to delusion. When Jesus clearly warned us not to believe false Christs and prophets and miracles that we will witness in the end days many do not obey but make shrines to miracle apparition of Mary. Many act like Satan does not exist or that he sleeps. His time is coming to an end and you really believe he sleep? He is the one who likes to do tricks. He managed to talk so many angels against God and we humans really believe we are any smarter not to fall into his trap? Do you think he will come to you and say-hey I am Satan would you follow me please?
His tactics are different. He comes as an angel of light, as one who loves us all, we are all his children…who could resist to that? Jesus said do not believe! Yet what is happening-Fatima, Medjugorje ,Guadalupe and others. Many fell on these tricks and even managed to make a whole new doctrine based on these apparitions. You are making it so easy for Satan and you are preparing the situation so ripe for the ultimate deceiving performance he has prepared for this mankind.
I recommend videos of Walter Veith. They do not bite either. By watching them you can test your own doctrine and study more .
By the way you can check this little gadget out gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/02/04/electronic-rosary.html
smh.com.au/news/WORLD/Italian-invents-electronic-rosary/2007/10/06/1191091402109.html%3CBR%3E
If one does not get surprised on all that has been done to the true faith this one is ultimate nonsense but I am sure some will find some brilliant biblical ground for this one too.TLS Dev

Greetings

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I would hope you’re not offended by anything I’ve written. It’s not my intent to be offensive or to remotely sound offensive…only to share what I believe is biblical truth in a loving way. In either case, please don’t take what I say to be offensive.

Hi Andrew,

No, I’m not offended by what you say. I graduated from CUC with a degree in Theology (planning to go into the ministry in the SDA church), so as a SDA I agreed with all that you say and am very familiar with those “aruguments”…I made them for many years. As I’ve said before in other threads on the forums, I do not hate the Adventist chruch, and left it purely for doctrinal reasons, as I received more Light in my spiritual journey. Much of what I am as a Christian was formed in the Adventist church.

And like you, I do see that some Catholics on these forums are in error regarding some of the things they think they know about Adventism, but do not. And I am telling you that I also see Adventists in error regarding what the think they know about Catholicism, but in reality, do not. If I could clear up the errors on both sides (as well as those that remain in my own limited understanding)…well…that would be a miracle…so I will leave that work to God and hopefully we can cooperate as Christians in the Spirit of Christ’s love to actually take the time needed to listen to each other, pray, and remain brothers and sisters in Christ.

I also know what a challenge that is for SDAs given what they deeply and sincerely believe about Catholicism. I must also say that you are the most “orthodox” Adventist, I’ve met on these forums, and when I was a SDA, I would have been in complete agreement with you…so I would suggest to the Catholics on this forum, that if they want to get a clear, accurate, and honest knowledge of what SDAs believe, that they can safely ask you, or PM you. You are forthright and do not “hide” your beliefs…and I admire that. I only wish I could do as good a job of presenting my Catholic beliefs as you do in presenting your Adventist beliefs.

(cont’d)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(cont’d 2)

All I’m stating is that the practices instituted by the papacy are of pagan origin. Of course, they’re not going to tell you that so you wouldn’t consider it to have anything to do with paganism. Without knowing you, I would think you’re a sincere Christian. Remember what I presented before in Revelation 18:4…God has His people in that system, but He’s calling them out before it’s too late.

It’s intersting that the “Law Keepers” in Jesus time accused Him of acting like a “pagan”.

Matthew 11:18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

I went to that site you posted and I don’t know how to respond except to ask what’s the purpose of saying “hail Mary”? She’s not divine, so why would anyone hail her? We should pray from our heart to God through Jesus.

You are correct that Mary is not divine…and that is what the Catholic Church teaches. But let’s look at the sacred scriptures and see who first hailed her, who first called her blessed among women, and Mary’s own prophecy that future generations will call her “Blessed” (I mean let’s face it, God picked her out of all women to carry His Son from a tiny single cell at conception, until Jesus was born a tiny little baby entrusted to her care…no one before or since has had that honor…a very big honor for a very very big task…especially when the devil is trying to destroy her baby).

Luke 1:27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. KJV

I used KJV since this translation contains the word “hail”…NIV uses the word “greetings”…but I think the scriptures are clear regarding the honor the angel gives to Mary when he comes to announce to her that she has been chosen by God to bear and bring forth the Redeemer of the world.

Now let’s look at when Mary went to visit Elizabeth (and take notice what the baby, John the Baptist, in Elizabeth’s womb did when HE heard Mary’s voice…and what happened to Elizabeth whe SHE heard Mary’s voice:

Luke 1:39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!"

And now let’s look at Mary’s prophecy regarding being called blessed:

Luke 1:46And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.”
56Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.

That is why I believe we should “hail” Mary…it is Biblical. I also agree with you that we should pray from our heart to God through Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is not. But she held God, made flesh, in her body, and raised and cared and protected and loved and was with Jesus through His life, His death, and His resurrection, in ways that no other mortal human being on this planet ever was or ever will be.

It was sad when I was an Adventist, and in protestantism in general, that few if any sermons or studies delved deeply into Mary. The prevelant anti-Catholic attitudes regarding Mary have prevented many good and sincere Christians from receiving the totality of blessings that God has for those who belong to Him. I praise God that He has allowed me to see and experience this truth before I die!!!

(cont’d)

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

(cont’d 3)

Also, if you look at this link, you’ll see what I was referring to when talking about the Ten Commandments being changed: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm. You’ll see here that the second commandment is omitted and the tenth is split into two. You’ll also see that the word “Sabbath” in the forth commandment is changed to “Lord’s Day”.

The catechism is an instructional aid, a teaching tool, as well as the official position of the Catholic Church on doctrines and teachings…and if you read the section in the current edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the 10 Commandments (which is a big section of the book) you will find the entire commandments are listed and referred to. It also addresses the Sabbath commandment and the Saturday/Sunday issue. Read the entire section…you may not agree, but it will give you an accurate presentation of Catholic teaching on the matter.

A few former Catholics (now Seventh-day Adventists) I know have told me that they were taught mainly from the Catechisms. I also read in the Catholic encyclopedia that “the Church” esteems traditions over Scripture. Is that the case now? Please let me know…thanks

.

That is perhaps the strangest thing I’ve noticed since I left the Adventist church and reconcilled with the Catholic Church…and that it appears I have a deeper understanding and blessing from the fullness of Catholic teachings than some who were raised Catholic. But that is a phenomenon I also noticed with converts to Adventism as opposed to those who were born and raised Adventists.

I have not read the encyclopedia article that you mention, so I cannot confirm or deny what it says…but in my studies I have found that sacred scriptures and sacred traditions are both important…but the importance placed on sacred scriptures is very very high. In fact, the point can be made that the sacred scriptures began as sacred traditions of the early Church. So it has been my experience that neither takes precedence over the other, but if you want my opinion from what I’ve observed, sacred scripture is elevated…but that may just be my bias. But sacred scripture is honored and held high…literally if you’ve ever attended a Mass and watched the Bible held high as it is carried to the pulpit for the Gospel reading.

Where in MD do you live? I’m in Montgomery County.

Andrew

I live in Carroll, but work in Montgomery…College Park. Since I’ve been on the forums I’ve met people from Canada, South America, Africa, Austrailia, etc…so you and I are “next door neighbors”

God bless all!!!

 

[BibleTruth]

(cont’d 2)

It’s intersting that the “Law Keepers” in Jesus time accused Him of acting like a “pagan”.

Matthew 11:18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

Luke 7:33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."

The NLT study Bible has a comment on Matthew 11:18 and Luke 7:33 that I think sheds light on both passages:

“Jesus condemned the attitude of his generation. No matter what he said or did, they took the opposite view. They were cynical and skeptical because he challenged their comfortable, secure, and self-centered lives. Too often we justify our inconsistencies because listening to God may require us to change the way we live” - Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translations - Tyndale Publishing (commentary on Matthew 11:16-19)

“The religious leaders hated both John and Jesus, but they did not bother to be consistent in their faultfinding. They criticized John the Baptist because he fasted and drank no wine; they criticized Jesus because he ate heartily and drank wine with tax collectors and sinners. Their real objection to both men, of course, had nothing to do with dietary habits. What the Pharisees and experts in the law couldn’t stand was being exposed for their hypocrisy” - Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translations - Tyndale Publishing (commentary on Luke 7:31-35)

These passages have little (or nothing) to do with worship that was of pagan origin unlike the things I mentioned.

Also, if I’ve said anything in previous posts it’s that we’re not saved by keeping the law or by being “Law Keepers”. We’re saved by God’s grace and our faith in Jesus Christ who, alone, paid the price for our sin…period. With that said, however, our faith is to produce good works (Ephesians 2:8-10, James 2:24) and our love for God is manifested in our obedience to Him (John 14:15). Know and understand that we will be judged according to what we’ve done with the faith that we have (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 16:27; Proverbs 24:12).

We can dispute doctrinal beliefs all day long but there’s no getting around these sound biblical principles.

Andrew

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

After realizing I hadn’t answered your question, I tried to edit my post, but I guess you caught it before I got the chance to finish. Below is what I added to the post:

“The ark was made to hold the Testimony (the Ten Commandments). I believe John saw the ark in heaven to represent that God’s Law is eternal and will still exist after Jesus comes again. The manna and the staff served a specific purpose to future generations of Israelites, but are not listed at the time Deuteronomy 10:5 was written. If that doesn’t answer your question, please let me know. Thanks.”

Thank you for answering my question Andrew!

What are your thoughts on what you asked?

This is such a great example of typology.

The Ark, which was kept in The Most Holy place of the earthly sanctuary, contained those items that were necessary for the salvation of God’s people.

1. The 10 Commandments - The law by which God instructed His people in how to live and to know and avoid sin.
2. Aaron’s staff - An inanimate object like the tables of stone on which the 10 commandments were written, that represented the ministry of the Levitical priests, specifically The High Priest, in the sancturary services. And yet this inanimate object contained a bud that only appeard on living trees. I would say this shows that the priestly ministry if living as well as life giving.
3. The manna - This was the bread that came down from God in Heaven to nourish and provide daily sustenance for their lives as they wandered on their pilgramage through the desert on the way to the Promised Land.

I believe that the reality of these types found their true fulfillment in the Reality of Jesus Christ. The Ark and all of its contents were used for the salvation of the Hebrews, as was the entire sanctuary service…and yet these were mere shadows that pointed to the Reality of God’s salvation plan completely fullfilled in The Divine God made man, Jesus Christ.

1. The 10 commandments - Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
2. Aaron’s staff - Hebrews 6:19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 9:11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

1. The manna - John 6:31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat." 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

It is no coincidence that John first sees the Ark in heaven, and then sees the woman who gives birth to the male child.

Mary is the Reality of the Ark. It is Mary who carried within her Jesus, who is God and man, who is the fulfillment of the Law as well as the Law giver…Jesus who is the true High Priest…Jesus who is the True Bread from Heaven who sustains us daily during our pigramage on this earth to the promised land of Heaven.

It is Mary who gives birth to the male child, not a church, not a message, not a body of believers, not the angelic host of heaven…it was Mary, chosen by God, blessed among women. It was Mary who was completely willing to do whatever God asked of her.

This is the reality of all the symbols. The realities are living not inanimate. Mary, God’s true ark, carried the True God Jesus Christ…the salvation of us and the whole world. Praise God!!! Amen!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

The NLT study Bible has a comment on Matthew 11:18 and Luke 7:33 that I think sheds light on both passages:

“Jesus condemned the attitude of his generation. No matter what he said or did, they took the opposite view. They were cynical and skeptical because he challenged their comfortable, secure, and self-centered lives. Too often we justify our inconsistencies because listening to God may require us to change the way we live” - Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translations - Tyndale Publishing (commentary on Matthew 11:16-19)

“The religious leaders hated both John and Jesus, but they did not bother to be consistent in their faultfinding. They criticized John the Baptist because he fasted and drank no wine; they criticized Jesus because he ate heartily and drank wine with tax collectors and sinners. Their real objection to both men, of course, had nothing to do with dietary habits. What the Pharisees and experts in the law couldn’t stand was being exposed for their hypocrisy” - Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translations - Tyndale Publishing (commentary on Luke 7:31-35)

These passages have little (or nothing) to do with worship that was of pagan origin unlike the things I mentioned.

Also, if I’ve said anything in previous posts it’s that we’re not saved by keeping the law or by being “Law Keepers”. We’re saved by God’s grace and our faith in Jesus Christ who, alone, paid the price for our sin…period. With that said, however, our faith is to produce good works (Ephesians 2:8-10, James 2:24) and our love for God is manifested in our obedience to Him (John 14:15). Know and understand that we will be judged according to what we’ve done with the faith that we have (Revelation 22:12; Matthew 16:27; Proverbs 24:12).

We can dispute doctrinal beliefs all day long but there’s no getting around these sound biblical principles.

Andrew

Yes, I believed that when I was a SDA and I still believe that now.

God bless all!!!

 

[BibleTruth]

I used KJV since this translation contains the word “hail”…NIV uses the word “greetings”…but I think the scriptures are clear regarding the honor the angel gives to Mary when he comes to announce to her that she has been chosen by God to bear and bring forth the Redeemer of the world.

Now let’s look at when Mary went to visit Elizabeth (and take notice what the baby, John the Baptist, in Elizabeth’s womb did when HE heard Mary’s voice…and what happened to Elizabeth whe SHE heard Mary’s voice:

And now let’s look at Mary’s prophecy regarding being called blessed:

That is why I believe we should “hail” Mary…it is Biblical. I also agree with you that we should pray from our heart to God through Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is not. But she held God, made flesh, in her body, and raised and cared and protected and loved and was with Jesus through His life, His death, and His resurrection, in ways that no other mortal human being on this planet ever was or ever will be.

It was sad when I was an Adventist, and in protestantism in general, that few if any sermons or studies delved deeply into Mary. The prevelant anti-Catholic attitudes regarding Mary have prevented many good and sincere Christians from receiving the totality of blessings that God has for those who belong to Him. I praise God that He has allowed me to see and experience this truth before I die!!!

(cont’d)

The Greek word for “hail” is “chairō” and it has a few meanings: 1) to rejoice, be glad, 2) to rejoice exceedingly, 3) to be well, thrive, 4) in salutations, hail!, 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute. The angel was speaking directly to Mary to give her the news about her holy conception. That’s it. It wasn’t license to use her name in any to any degree in any form of worship or prayer.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was even born (Luke 1:15). The fact that he moved in response to hearing Mary’s voice was likely because Mary, herself, was filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). Again, there’s nothing here that remotely even indicates that we were to use Mary’s name in prayer.

In Luke 1:48, the word Mary used to say all generations would call her blessed is “makarizō” and it simply means, “to pronounce blessed”. The word for “blessed” is the Greek word “eulogeō”, which has several meanings, some of which indicate consecrating something (like communion bread, for example). This word is used over 40 times in the New Testament and in the context of Luke 1:48, it means to “be favored of God”. Look at its usage in Acts 3:26 or Romans 12:14 and see if the way you’re attributing its usage to in Luke 1:48 can be used in those verses as well. Once more, trying to use the wording in this passage for more than what it’s saying is simply trying to support a weak theology that has no biblical grounds. It’s tradition, plain and simple.

Mary was a special woman who had a special part to play in the history of mankind. I’m looking forward to seeing her on resurrection morning and I praise God for what He did through her. There’s no question that she was blessed in a beautiful way by God, but ask yourself…don’t you feel blessed to be in a saving relationship with Christ, as well? Hasn’t God worked wonders in your life to make you feel special? I certainly do! God blesses us in different ways, but it doesn’t elevate any of us over another.

On Mother’s Day a couple years ago, my pastor gave a beautiful sermon that gave special acknowledgment to Mary. I agree that you don’t hear many sermons on her but there’s good reason for that - Jesus is our intercessor and Mary isn’t. It’s not a slight against Mary but it’s just the way it is.

I doubt my response will change the way you feel, but the Bible can stand on it’s own when it comes to this understanding. What’s been done to Mary’s legacy is unfortunate because it ties her in to numerous pagan beliefs and rituals. You, personally, may not believe she’s a deity, but I’ve seen people bowing down to her image. Whether they’re praying to God or not, that practice is forbidden and it wouldn’t be happening if it was never taught.

 

[BibleTruth]

Yes, I believed that when I was a SDA and I still believe that now.

God bless all!!!

Do you still keep the Sabbath holy? (Please know that I’m not asking with a sarcastic tone.)

 

[BibleTruth]

Thank you for answering my question Andrew!

This is such a great example of typology.

The Ark, which was kept in The Most Holy place of the earthly sanctuary, contained those items that were necessary for the salvation of God’s people.

1. The 10 Commandments - The law by which God instructed His people in how to live and to know and avoid sin.
2. Aaron’s staff - An inanimate object like the tables of stone on which the 10 commandments were written, that represented the ministry of the Levitical priests, specifically The High Priest, in the sancturary services. And yet this inanimate object contained a bud that only appeard on living trees. I would say this shows that the priestly ministry if living as well as life giving.
3. The manna - This was the bread that came down from God in Heaven to nourish and provide daily sustenance for their lives as they wandered on their pilgramage through the desert on the way to the Promised Land.

I believe that the reality of these types found their true fulfillment in the Reality of Jesus Christ. The Ark and all of its contents were used for the salvation of the Hebrews, as was the entire sanctuary service…and yet these were mere shadows that pointed to the Reality of God’s salvation plan completely fullfilled in The Divine God made man, Jesus Christ.

1. The 10 commandments - Matthew 5:17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
2. Aaron’s staff - Hebrews 6:19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 9:11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

1. The manna - John 6:31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat." 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

It is no coincidence that John first sees the Ark in heaven, and then sees the woman who gives birth to the male child.

Mary is the Reality of the Ark. It is Mary who carried within her Jesus, who is God and man, who is the fulfillment of the Law as well as the Law giver…Jesus who is the true High Priest…Jesus who is the True Bread from Heaven who sustains us daily during our pigramage on this earth to the promised land of Heaven.

It is Mary who gives birth to the male child, not a church, not a message, not a body of believers, not the angelic host of heaven…it was Mary, chosen by God, blessed among women. It was Mary who was completely willing to do whatever God asked of her.

This is the reality of all the symbols. The realities are living not inanimate. Mary, God’s true ark, carried the True God Jesus Christ…the salvation of us and the whole world. Praise God!!! Amen!!!

God bless all!!!

Patrick,

Mary didn’t flee to the wilderness for 1260 years so that negates your understanding of Revelation 12. Even if they were literal days, there’s no reference to that anywhere in the New Testament.

How would Revelation 12:15-16 fit into your interpretation of this chapter applying to Mary? Also, how would verse 17 fit into Catholic belief that Mary didn’t have any other children and remained a virgin her entire life?

Please let me know. Thanks.

I explained how to delineate between Revelation 11 & Revelation 12 to show that the two prophecies are not directly related and I gave biblical references as to why the staff and the manna were in the ark. Jesus is our high priest now and only He can intermediate on our behalf before God which was the role of the earthly priests in the earthly sanctuary.

You mentioned going to CUC and I find that interesting. Ellen White warned against having our schools receive state accreditation because once that happened (after she died), they had to bring in secular scholars to meet certain requirements. Our students are generally not getting the education they should be getting and as a result in some cases, they’re leaving school more spiritually confused than when they went in. This is not a personal attack against you, but it’s to highlight that Satan has his crafty hands in any and everything that is set up to do God’s work on this earth. Those who can discern when his evil is at work are those who will stand firm in the end.

Andrew

 

[djconklin]

“Sola Scriptura”, basically interpreting sacred scripture by personal interpretation leading to many different heresies.

That is not what Sola Scriptura means or says. Sole Scriptura interprets Scripture by Scripture–otherwise known as an exegesis. Using private interpretation is eisegesis. As you correctly noted you should study to learn the truth about your misconceptions.

As has been noted here:

“Seventh-day Adventists get their interpretation or understanding of the Bible from the Holy Spirit…the same Spirit Who influenced the minds of the Bible writers. The Holy Spirit is the One who guides us into all truth (John 16:13).”

 

[djconklin]

Ellen White warned against having our schools receive state accreditation because once that happened (after she died), they had to bring in secular scholars to meet certain requirements.

That is not what accreditation means. And I know of no “secular scholars” who have been brought in.

Our students are generally not getting the education they should be getting

I was impressed when the education we were getting at the seminary and undergrad–at Andrews. One student noted that that is simply because the profs had read more than we had–which is true for all universities.

and as a result in some cases, they’re leaving school more spiritually confused than when they went in.

I don’t know of any such cases. It might say more about what their parents and pastors were teaching–they need to lift the bar on encouraging people to dig deeply into Scripture.

 

[djconklin]

I’ve looked at the 10 Commandments in at least 3 different Catholic Bibles, and I assure you that there is no Catholic version of the 10 Commandments. They are the same in every Catholic Bible I’ve checked (in both Ex. and Deut.) as in the KJV, NIV, etc.

You need to compare the translations with the Hebrew. Please post what the Catholic Bibles have for the 10C so I can compare them with the KJV and NIV.

 

[BibleTruth]

Look at the text you provide? your confusing Old testament thought with fulfillment in the New testament. Yes Jesus speaks of death as sleep in a temporary state, when Jesus died where did he goe to set the captives free? Was he their alarm clock from sleep death? no; he set the captives free and opened heavens gate for those who believed and obeyed God. This is New revelation from God that the old testament pointed to Jesus who would fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Tell me are these captives Jesus set free, still subject to the law of the Sabbath? Remember what Jesus said, If hold to the law and not him, then Moses will be your judge not the merciful Jesus. For Moses did not spare his own kinfolk.

Peace be with you

I don’t think I can have a meaningful discussion with you. You’re spewing out vague references to Scripture but have you actually studied them in their context to know what they’re really saying? Have you really read the things I’ve posted?

Do you really think that when Jesus died on the Friday that His soul went to some unknown place and literally preached to dead spirits before being resurrected on Sunday morning (1 Peter 3:19)? If you actually studied this passage you will see what it’s really teaching. What Peter was saying is that the same Holy Spirit that brought Jesus back to life is the same Holy Spirit that spoke through Noah in an attempt to save a sin-sick world from the impending detestation of the Flood. Read the entire passage for yourself and don’t isolate one text to form or support a false theology.

It’s very interesting that whenever a non-Sabbath keeper talks about the Law, they only reference the fourth commandment. Does not wanting to keep the Sabbath mean you can freely break the other nine? What is it about the Sabbath that you’re so much against?

 

[BibleTruth]

That is not what accreditation means. And I know of no “secular scholars” who have been brought in.

I was impressed when the education we were getting at the seminary and undergrad–at Andrews. One student noted that that is simply because the profs had read more than we had–which is true for all universities.

I don’t know of any such cases. It might say more about what their parents and pastors were teaching–they need to lift the bar on encouraging people to dig deeply into Scripture.

Hello DJ,

accreditation - “to certify (a school, college, or the like) as meeting all formal official requirements of academic excellence, curriculum, facilities, etc.” In order for Seventh-day Adventist schools to have state accreditation, they had to bring in PhDs and others with advanced degrees to head our school faculties. At the time, we didn’t have any so we had no choice but to seek secular scholars to meet certain requirements.

The “education” I’m speaking about relates, in part, to our mission of Seventh-day Adventists…to share the three angels’ messages to the world (Revelation 14:6-12). What’s happening in colleges and universities these days is undoing what’s been taught at home and at local churches (study the work of John Dewey when you have some time).

For the first two years of school, students are being taught Humanities. It would be comforting to think that this mean humanitarianism, but that’s not the case. Humanities is the offspring of what came out of the French Revolution where the Age of Reason was spread to the world…“humanism” or the idea that man didn’t need God. It’s all the offspring of Illuminism (see Genesis 3:5) which also gave birth to atheism, communism and evolution. This is corrupting our students, as subtle as it may be (even to the point where you don’t know it’s happening), to the point where they question their own faith and are not grounded in anything secure.

Andrew

 

[andrea3710]

You are correct that Mary is not divine…and that is what the Catholic Church teaches. But let’s look at the sacred scriptures and see who first hailed her, who first called her blessed among women, and Mary’s own prophecy that future generations will call her “Blessed” (I mean let’s face it, God picked her out of all women to carry His Son from a tiny single cell at conception, until Jesus was born a tiny little baby entrusted to her care…no one before or since has had that honor…a very big honor for a very very big task…especially when the devil is trying to destroy her baby).

Luke 1:27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. KJV

I used KJV since this translation contains the word “hail”…NIV uses the word “greetings”…but I think the scriptures are clear regarding the honor the angel gives to Mary when he comes to announce to her that she has been chosen by God to bear and bring forth the Redeemer of the world.

Now let’s look at when Mary went to visit Elizabeth (and take notice what the baby, John the Baptist, in Elizabeth’s womb did when HE heard Mary’s voice…and what happened to Elizabeth whe SHE heard Mary’s voice:

Luke 1:39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”

And now let’s look at Mary’s prophecy regarding being called blessed:

Luke 1:46And Mary said:
“My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.”
56Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.

That is why I believe we should “hail” Mary…it is Biblical. I also agree with you that we should pray from our heart to God through Jesus. Jesus is God. Mary is not. But she held God, made flesh, in her body, and raised and cared and protected and loved and was with Jesus through His life, His death, and His resurrection, in ways that no other mortal human being on this planet ever was or ever will be.

It was sad when I was an Adventist, and in protestantism in general, that few if any sermons or studies delved deeply into Mary. The prevelant anti-Catholic attitudes regarding Mary have prevented many good and sincere Christians from receiving the totality of blessings that God has for those who belong to Him. I praise God that He has allowed me to see and experience this truth before I die!!!

Here are some other Bible texts that include word and meaning blessed :

Jdg 5:24 Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Malachi 3;12 And all nations will call you blessed for you will be a delightful land says the Lord of Hosts

There are so many texts in the Bible that talk about blessed people,blessed seed and nations and land but still never in any parts of the Bible was allowed to be worshiped anything blessed but God. We can say that Mary was blessed and she was, because of her dedicated life to God she was blessed with that honor to give birth to Savior. That was the greatest honor given to a woman but she was not the point in the whole situation,the point was Jesus and the plan of Salvation.
It reminds me of the situation in the Bible where Jesus says: Woe to you blind guides who say,whoever swears by the temple it is nothing but whoever swears by the gold of the temple he is obliged to perform it. Fools and blind! For which is greater the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?..Jesus was the temple,because of Him Mary was blessed but she is not the whole point in that and her role has ended in the whole Salvation plan. Child in Elizabeth’s womb leaped not because of Mary but because of the fruit of Mary’s womb.
I really do not see why would the greeting Hail or hello to Mary by the angel be the reason you would pray to Mary . This is how you people explain and justify the things you do. I want a text from Bible where it says that we should pray to Mary because she mediates for us to Jesus or God. I am not anti Catholic but pro truth. And sincere Christians will come to the truth and to God through Christ not Mary! Anything else is theater for heathens and the door to destruction.

 

[djconklin]

accreditation - “to certify (a school, college, or the like) as meeting all formal official requirements of academic excellence, curriculum, facilities, etc.” In order for Seventh-day Adventist schools to have state accreditation, they had to bring in PhDs and others with advanced degrees to head our school faculties. At the time, we didn’t have any so we had no choice but to seek secular scholars to meet certain requirements.

We never ever brought in any secular scholars in order to get accredited. We sent grad students to univerisites to get doctorates–they came back to become the profs at out univeristies.

The “education” I’m speaking about relates, in part, to our mission of Seventh-day Adventists…to share the three angels’ messages to the world (Revelation 14:6-12). What’s happening in colleges and universities these days is undoing what’s been taught at home and at local churches (study the work of John Dewey when you have some time).

If you wish to change the definition as you go along go right ahead.

For the first two years of school, students are being taught Humanities.

In the humantites (my undergrad was in sociology) they teach such things as anthropology, psychology, history, art, philosophy, sociology, music, economics, etc…

This is corrupting our students, as subtle as it may be (even to the point where you don’t know it’s happening), to the point where they question their own faith and are not grounded in anything secure.

That would mean they weren’t grounded before they even went. I went to the University of Minnesota for my undergard in sociology (never finished that one) and my faith was never shaken. Unlike a tree that isn’t exposed to winds becomes weak and snaps during a storm, I was actually strengthened by my experience.