Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[happilycatholic]

happilycatholic,if your post was directed to me show me where I called you names? " You people" is a figure of speach and used in my language often and I explained that English is foreign language to me. You condemn your own religion by not answering my questions.
By the way I am not saying anything that Bible does not say about false teachers and doctrines.I judge not for God is and will be the judge and would never ever want to be in the position of a judge.Words in the Bible are also judging those who live not according to the given doctrines. As I already said I do not care about denominations at all,if we call ourselves Christians we should live as such and live according to the basic doctrines of the earliest Apostolic church if we are not ready for that then we are living under the false name.

**I never said you called me a name. I said it isn’t right to call people heathens if they don’t believe what you believe, it that’s me then you’ve called me a heathen haven’t you? **

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You my dear are no Apostle (they are now saints) and using harsh language here will get you nowhere in case you haven’t noticed.

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**"**live according to the basic doctrines of the earliest Apostolic church" This quote is interesting since catholics DO just this.

And if you want your questions answered correctly, I suggest you go on the Apologetics thread or just simply READ history.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Sola Deo Gloria—God Alone be the glory.

Honor and glory is given to Mary that alone is due God.

I don’t agree with you, and I’d love to know what evidence you have as to who and how they do what you claim?

And please provide something other than the lists from the previous posts…because they are incorrect.

God bless all!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi HC!!!

It is nice to “bump” into you again here!!! I hope all is well with you!! In a few weeks I will be joining you at the Lord’s Table to partake in the Lamb’s Supper with you…and I am so happy and exceedingly joyful about that…as are my R.C.I.A. classmates.

The best part is, you’ll feel just like you do now every single Lent because you’ll be a part of every person that goes through it from now on. People all over the world are being baptized and/or confirmed and you are part of that!! It’s an unexpected gift! I’m getting chills just hearing your excitement. It’s truly awesome, God is truly awesome.

This Lenten season is the first one I’ve ever taken seriously and participated in…and it has been a blessing to say the least…wow…what a blessed season!! I’ve been reading “The Imitation of Christ” by Thomas Akempis and it is like a magnifying glass lighting up the soul. I have discovered areas in my life that require the transforming grace of God, about which I have never seen or acknowledged before. God’s sanctification process is so wonderful.

I don’t know if your parish does a Seder Meal but if they do, participate. It’s very revealing spiritually. Our parish does it every year and we have a Rabbi that comes and speaks, he’s great too.

I just have to tell you that I love you in such a very special way!!! It was your thoughts regarding the sabbath/sunday issue that really cleared up the remaining doubts in my mind, and I have been thinking, contemplating, and meditating on that concept for a while now. Only scratching the surface, so I look forward to how that will develop and progress in the future.

Well, gosh. I’m sooooo blessed to hear those words. Tears are streaming. But God sometimes picks the least of us to do His work. You’ve blessed me by letting me know God has worked through me Patrick. Thank YOU!

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As you know from past posts, I have some SDA friends that I cherish very much, one who has been a life-long friend. This is something that has weighed on my heart for years and I have done a lot of praying and searching for the answer. While I don’t try to convert my friends, I do have to reconcile it with my beliefs and that’s where all that came from.

I posted some high level thoughts on that over at the SDAtoCatholic blog sda2rc.blogspot.com/ I just began posting there and it is a good site with SDAs and former SDAs now Catholic. The posters there are very scholarly (so I’m learning a lot) and very Christian in spirit. My login name there is** Mike S.** if you want to check it out.

I have actually been following the site and blog. I’m glad to be able to know “who is you” now.

So I take it that you have been reading the posts on this thread. These are very accurate examples of how SDAs think about and view Catholicism. I used to hold very firmly to these beliefs and opinions as expressed by the SDAs on these recent posts.

I know, I’m amazed at how much doctrine is derived from interpretations of Revelation. Quite a bit of SDA doctrine comes from what they interpret as end-time prophecy. I was once told that the catholic Church has no formal interpretation of Revelation. Is that true? I’ve seen things written by catholics, but I would love to read something written by the authority of the Church on Revelation. IMHO it can be dangerous to interpret that particular book on one’s own.

So now you may better understand what I meant when I used to tell you that it was nothing short of a miracle that God blessed me with the grace to accept and believe the fullness of His Truth by reconcilling with His Church! It still amazes me each day!!

God never performs a work that is not a miracle.

You are in our prayers daily!!

And you are in mine!

God bless all!!!

Yes, and Peace Be With You!!

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HC

 

[happilycatholic]

The words, “pagan” and “heathen” are being used on this thread as terms that are narrow in nature. However, they are very broad in nature and actually refer to anyone outside the Jewish faith.

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So when you are throwing around these labels, you may want to consider that a lot of Christian traditions, celebrations and acts can be defined as “pagan” depending on who you are talking to. These things include anything that has to do with the Trinity, Christmas, or any other Christ-related feast day, holiday, observance or celebration.

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The fact that some folks on here have taken posession of the term makes it no less applicable to their own “pagan” religions.

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HC

 

[djconklin]

…not only is it likely that Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit…she in fact was filled with the Holy Spirit…In fact, at this point she was also filled with The Son and The Father…The entire Godhead made flesh in Mary’s body…her womb.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

 

[djconklin]

Mary is not worshipped…

Prayers are offered to Mary that should only be offered to God. Why pray to Mary when you can pray directly to the Father?

 

[djconklin]

No, I do no longer observe the sabbath/saturday.

God’s Sabbath is still holy. Follow Him and not the traditions of man. Most Christians at least as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

You need to compare the translations with the Hebrew. Please post what the Catholic Bibles have for the 10C so I can compare them with the KJV and NIV.

New American Bible:
Exodus 20:1 Then God delivered all these commandments:
2
"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.
3
You shall not have other gods besides me.
4
You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
5
2 you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation;
6
but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7
"You shall not take the name of the LORD, your God, in vain. For the LORD will not leave unpunished him who takes his name in vain.
8
"Remember to keep holy the sabbath day.
9
Six days you may labor and do all your work,
10
but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done then either by you, or your son or daughter, or your male or female slave, or your beast, or by the alien who lives with you.
11
In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.
12
"Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land which the LORD, your God, is giving you.
13
"You shall not kill.
14
"You shall not commit adultery.
15
"You shall not steal.
16
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male or female slave, nor his ox or ***, nor anything else that belongs to him.”

New Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition:

Exodus 20:[1]
And God spoke all these words, saying,

[2] "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
[3]
"You shall have no other gods before me.

[4]
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;

[5] you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
[6] but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
[7]
"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

[8]
"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

[9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work;
[10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates;
[11] for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it.
[12]
"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you.

[13]
"You shall not kill.

[14]
"You shall not commit adultery.

[15]
"You shall not steal.

[16]
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

[17]
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, or his ox, or his ***, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Maybe I’m ignorant, but can someone please show me proof of when the catholic Church “invented” Sunday worship??

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I know all that is leveled against the Church for “changing” the Commandment to the Lord’s Day. But that was an affirmation. When did they actually start worshipping on Sunday and “create” this whole Sunday worship thing?

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HC

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Where does it say that in the Bible?

**Matthew 1:18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” **

Luke 1:26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God.”
38"I am the Lord’s servant," Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.

So, do you have doubts regarding the divinity of Jesus? I cannot explain it, but I do believe by the grace of God and His gift of faith, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. And His incarnation occured through the miracle of the Holy Spirit and the humble, willing, and obedient love of Mary.

Hail Mary full of grace! Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus! Praise God!!! Amen!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Prayers are offered to Mary that should only be offered to God.

Now how, pray tell, do you know that?

Why pray to Mary when you can pray directly to the Father?

Why not?

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I was once told that the catholic Church has no formal interpretation of Revelation. Is that true? I’ve seen things written by catholics, but I would love to read something written by the authority of the Church on Revelation. IMHO it can be dangerous to interpret that particular book on one’s own.

Hi HC,

You will really have to ask someone else this question, since I have not really looked into it. Since I could walk out of this building and possibly be run over by a bus and killed, the end of the world, for me, would be at that point in time. The end for anyone can come like a thief in the night, so it is more important to be ready at any moment, because today is the day of salvation.

As to when Jesus will return the second time, no one knows, not even Jesus, but only the Father in Heaven. The focus of the Church is to prepare us to be ready at any moment, because any of us could die before The Lord returns.

If you have not yet read “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scot Hahn, I recommend it for a historic perspective on the book of Revelation. He goes through early Church writings on Revelation and show that what John saw going on in Heaven was the worship of God. He presents that Revelation is a picture of the Mass in Heaven, but more accurately that the Mass on earth is patterned after the worship of God in Heaven. He shows very clearly how the Book of Revelation is divided into the liturgy of The Word, and the liturgy of The Eucharist.

It is very interesting to say the least, and has deepened my awareness and experience in worshipping during the Mass…to know that we are partaking in the same worship of God that is going on in Heaven is overwhelming, in a good way, to say the least.

God bless all!!!

 

[andrea3710]

I wish someone would indicate me from the Scripture where it says that Lord’s Day means Sunday. From what I read in Bible Lords’ Day has totally different meaning.
If anyone wants me I will load this website with the Bible verses which talk about the Lord’s Day

 

[happilycatholic]

Now how, pray tell, do you know that?

Why not?

Exactly.

God bless all!!!

And I would add:

I think a good test of right and wrong is just simply asking yourself: What would you do if Mary were standing right in front of you? Would you ask her to go to Christ for your loved one who is in pain? Would you ask her to go to Christ for yourself? Not for your sins, but for prayer? Or would you just let her walk on by as if she were any other person? Or would you stand before her and insult her by telling her she’s not God when she knows that.

I personally would be honored if Mary would hear me and go to Christ of my behalf. Also, you have to wonder why would Jesus be offended if his mother came to him on your behalf? He had persons coming to him on the behalf of others in Scripture, what is the difference now? All we have to know is that Jesus is our Redeemer.The saints are not, Mary is not. We are all going to God the Father through Jesus. It doesn’t matter that Mary prays for us because she is doing what we asked and what God commands, she is asking for something to be done for us and that it by done BY GOD.

We are not asking Mary to forgive sins. We are not asking Mary to make certain things happen or not happen. We are asking her for prayer. We know and always will know that God is the Redeemer and the one who can answer our prayers.

**This is not rocket science, it’s division. It’s all about division. It is a way to draw a line between “us and them”. **

 

[djconklin]

Thanks for the texts. I note that they very clearly state that the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath and that you are to keep it holy.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Prayers are offered to Mary that should only be offered to God.

Now how, pray tell, do you know that?

What are you quibbling about in the sentence?

If the 1st part ab’t praying to Mary–from experience in Catholic run shelters where they try to indoctrinate the “inmates”.

If the 2nd about praying to the Father:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Originally Posted by djconklin
Why pray to Mary when you can pray directly to the Father?

Why not?

That game doesn’t work on me.

 

[djconklin]

So, do you have doubts regarding the divinity of Jesus?

Nice try. I never said anything even remotely suggesting that I doubted the divinty of Jesus. This is a terrible, cheap-shot, low-blow argument.

I asked and I repeat:

…not only is it likely that Mary was filled with the Holy Spirit…she in fact was filled with the Holy Spirit…In fact, at this point she was also filled with The Son and The Father…The entire Godhead made flesh in Mary’s body…her womb.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Now try to answer the question.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

What are you quibbling about in the sentence?

If the 1st part ab’t praying to Mary–from experience in Catholic run shelters where they try to indoctrinate the “inmates”.

If the 2nd about praying to the Father:

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

That game doesn’t work on me.

I’m not quibbling…I’m just wondering what special insight, or gift of discernment, that you might have into people’s personal prayers which allow you to make the statment that prayers to Mary should be prayers directed to God.

How do you know any person’s prayers, let alone to whom they should go?

For you to make that statment is for you to know the hearts and motives of all who pray.

I ask you now djconklin, to pray for me. That takes nothing away from my prayers to God.

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

I wish someone would indicate me from the Scripture where it says that Lord’s Day means Sunday. From what I read in Bible Lords’ Day has totally different meaning.
If anyone wants me I will load this website with the Bible verses which talk about the Lord’s Day

I’ll tell you what, when you find “Sola Scriptura” and “Trinity” in the Bible, then we’ll talk about the Lord’s Day.

**While you’re looking for that, please show me where is says in the Scriptures that the Sabbath was meant for anyone but the Sons of Isreal. Then show me where anyone but the Sons of Isreal were circumcised. This indicates more than the generation that was there and more than just anyone of that time. It is very specific. **

**Also, show me where in the Scripture it says that the uncircumcised can worship on Saturday? Circumcision and the Sabbath were part of God’s covenant with Isreal. If you are not circumcised you are not a Jew. If you are not a Jew you shouldn’t be worshipping on the Sabbath. **

Here Paul sets Christians apart from Jews using circumcision:

Galatians 5:1-4, “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

And the part in red clearly states that if you are circumcised you are under the whole law, in other words a Jew. If you are not circumcised you are a Christian, under the New Covenant.

And let’s not forget that there were more than Jews and Christians in the world then. There were gentiles who didn’t worship God. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that Christians (or gentiles) were meant to keep the Sabbath or even how they should do it since they would’ve been new at it and not circumcised. No where in the Bible does it appear that the Apostles felt the need to “teach” the Sabbath to all these brand new God worshippers, the gentiles. Not to mention the absence of an uprising of the Jews when all these gentiles started keeping the Sabbath as if it were theirs to keep. You thought they were mad at Jesus and the Apostles when Jesus was crucified?

I can only conclude from these passages that:

a.) God called the Jews to be circumcised.
b.) God called the circumcised Jews to keep the Sabbath holy.
c.) God never called His people with whom He made the New Covenant to be circumcised NOR keep the Sabbath.
d.) Apostles and Christians were martyred for being Christians, not errant Jews.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Nice try. I never said anything even remotely suggesting that I doubted the divinty of Jesus. This is a terrible, cheap-shot, low-blow argument.

I asked and I repeat:

Now try to answer the question.

You asked for scriptures that prove that Mary carried the divine Trinity. I gave you the scriptures.

Do you or do you not believe that Jesus Christ was fully and totally and completely divine?

If you believe He is completely God then why ask about the fullness of the Trinity being present in Him at the beginning of the incarnation of God?

If you do not believe He is completely God, then I can understand your question.

I have answered your question for the second time…now you try and hear the answer!

God bless all!!!