Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

  • Thread starter Thread starter James1234
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I hope so! But why did you shrug your shoulders?
because of things like this:

“…traditions brought in by the pagans.” ~djconklin

You have repeatedly said thing like this and made remarks about Jews. Do you honestly believe you find favor with God saying these things?

Would you say these things TO God? I think not.

People like you give SDAs like my friends a bad name. Not every SDA is out there saying the things you and Bible “Truth” have said on this forum.

I have SDA friends that are coming to my fiancee’s confirmation at Easter.

You know if such foul things spew from a person’s mouth, is that a glimpse of what’s inside?
 
Not relevant how many people could read and write. Augustine once herad someone “reading” Romans outside his house. When he went to see who it was he found that the guy was blind. Supposedly (I’m told it isn’t true, but its neat nonetheless …) when Jerome translated the Bible into Latin (most people couldn’t read or write that either–some people lie by not telling you that) he used the word “vine” for Jonah’s gourd. So, when the priest was reading it the people shouted, “No, gourd, gourd!” When the Bereans were checking Scripture to see if what Paul was saying was true or not, were they reading it? Or, were they cross-checking from memory? Maybe one could read–but, how many scrolls on the Bible were there at that time? In Berea?

Some people may be misinformed, or uninformed, some have been lied to and didn’t check their source(s). But, that doesn’t make them “malicious.”
Please answer the following:

When did Christ ask us to worship Him on the Sabbath?

God asked the Isrealites to remember Him in the Sabbath. Christ asks us to remember Him in the Eucharist.

When did Christ ever tell us to remember Him, His Resurrection, or the Eucharist in the Sabbath?
 
Originally Posted by djconklin
Yes; for example, look at various translations of Col. 2:16-17. If they have a “what” in vs. 16 it is wrong (there’s no support for it in the Greek ) andthen in vs 17 if it doesn’t end with “but the body of Christ” it is wrong–same reason.
Tisk, Tisk, Tisk, again your mutilation of the scriptures have no bearing on the translation.

I didn’t “mutilate” anything and no evidence is presnted that I did so. See scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/col2.pdf for the interlinear text. Note that there is “what” in the Greek and the last clause of Col. 2:17 is “but the body of Christ” just as I gave it to you.
The translation is to translate the thought and teaching of the subject, not your mutilation of the Greek or Latin language. Your scholastic scripture interpretation is way off the scriptural content being expressed.
  1. The first thing any translation should do is to translate the actual words. In this case, there is no support for “what” in verse 16. Secondly, when you realize that there are no drink laws so Paul couldn’t have been referring to “what you drank” that reinforces my point.
  2. You haven’t produced any evidence that I mutiliated the Greek–I have simply noted that there is NO Greek suppport for “what.”
  3. I didn’t use the Latin translation; I didn’t say anything about the latin translation onthis point. So, that is irrelevant.
  4. Thank you for referring to my interpretation as “scholalstic.” However, Paul wrote in koine Greek, the common Greek that was used in the marketplace. In fact, you know over 150 words in Greek, and probably, without knowing that they are Greek.
  5. By keeping the last clause of verse 17 as “but the body of Christ” as Paul wrote it one keeps it in context–it is a reference to the church.
  6. You haven’t presented any evidence that supports the claim that my “interpretation” is off base. I believe you meant Scriptural context, not “content.”
BTW, did you know that the Vulgate was the first translation?
You are in error again, technically the first translation was the “Septuagint” the Hebrew to the Greek translation.

The Vulgate was the first translation of the New Testament–my fault for not filling in all the blanks for you.
 
Originally Posted by djconklin
I hope so! But why did you shrug your shoulders?
because of things like this:

“…traditions brought in by the pagans.” ~djconklin

You have repeatedly said thing like this and made remarks about Jews.

The Jews didn’t bring in pagan traditions into the Christian church.
Not every SDA is out there saying the things you and Bible “Truth” have said on this forum.
If the people who told you that they were SDA’s have been telling you the things you have said about SDA’s on this forum, then I’m real glad I’m not one of them.
 
This is how dj and Bible Truth are told to keep the Sabbath:

The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds."–The Desire of Ages, p 207

And surprise, surprise guess who wrote that? Yep. Ellen G. White. And it’s on the conference website as a guideline to keeping the Sabbath. Ellen’s own version of keeping the Sabbath right there.

Tell me, where in the Commandments, any of them does it say anything about secular labor? The site I referred dj to and the one she says “has some interesting reading” on it says this:

Most Americans see the word “work” and think of it in the English sense of the word: physical labor and effort, or employment. Under this definition, turning on a light would be permitted, because it does not require effort, but a rabbi would not be permitted to lead Shabbat services, because leading services is his employment. Jewish law prohibits the former and permits the latter. Many Americans therefore conclude that Jewish law doesn’t make any sense.
The problem lies not in Jewish law, but in the definition that Americans are using. The Torah does not prohibit “work” in the 20th century English sense of the word. The Torah prohibits “melachah” (Mem-Lamed-Alef-Kaf-Hei), which is usually translated as “work,” but does not mean precisely the same thing as the English word. Before you can begin to understand the Shabbat restrictions, you must understand the word “melachah.”
Melachah generally refers to the kind of work that is creative, or that exercises control or dominion over your environment. The word may be related to “melekh” (king; Mem-Lamed-Kaf). The quintessential example of melachah is the work of creating the universe, which G-d ceased from on the seventh day. Note that G-d’s work did not require a great physical effort: he spoke, and it was done. The word melachah is rarely used in scripture outside of the context of Shabbat and holiday restrictions. The only other repeated use of the word is in the discussion of the building of the sanctuary and its vessels in the wilderness. Exodus Ch. 31, 35-38. Notably, the Shabbat restrictions are reiterated during this discussion (Ex. 31:13), thus we can infer that the work of creating the sanctuary had to be stopped for Shabbat. From this, the rabbis concluded that the work prohibited on Shabbat is the same as the work of creating the sanctuary. They found 39 categories of forbidden acts, all of which are types of work that were needed to build the sanctuary:

And it goes on to list a number of tasks. So dj YOU ARE WRONG. You are NOT keeping the Sabbath as God told us to, you are keeping the Sabbath as Ellen White told you to.

You are so busted right now.
 
When did Christ ask us to worship Him on the Sabbath?
Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
God asked the Isrealites to remember Him in the Sabbath. Christ asks us to remember Him in the Eucharist.
Two different things. The Sabbath is to remind us who made us and is a sign that it is God who sanctifies us. The Communion service (with foot-washing) is a rememberance of Christ’s life of service to save us.
 
Oh and to the question of there being Jews on earth today:

In common speech, the word “Jew” is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word “Judaism” is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word “Indian” to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. However, this technically inaccurate usage is common both within the Jewish community and outside of it, and is therefore used throughout this site.

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

If Judaism doesn’t exsist anymore, you’d better tell the Jews.
 
This is how dj and Bible Truth are told to keep the Sabbath:
The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds."–The Desire of Ages, p 207
And surprise, surprise guess who wrote that? Yep. Ellen G. White. And it’s on the conference website as a guideline to keeping the Sabbath. Ellen’s own version of keeping the Sabbath right there.
  1. Give is the web address.
  2. We don’t use EGW to tell us how to keep the Sabbath; we use the Bible:
  1. Sabbath:
    The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God’s unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God’s creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.) found online at adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html
  1. You haven’t shown how what EGW said is her “version” of Sabbath-keeping.
Tell me, where in the Commandments, any of them does it say anything about secular labor?
Exodus 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
 
If you don’t have disdain for a race you call murderers, then what is that?
I never labeled an entire race “murderers.”
You’ve made several comments on this thread like that. You are really good at denying things you’ve said on here. I spent a lot of time last night going through all the posts on this thread and that is played out over and over.
Then shows us which posts.
You’re right, I’ve been lied to. By you.
I never tell lies.
 
Originally Posted by djconklin
“We do not attack Catholics for worshipping on Sunday–again you were lied to and you believed them. Pastors in our church get up and tell the congregation that there will be more Catholics in heaven than SDA’s because they are living up to the light they know and too many SDA’s aren’t…” ~djconklin
If that is indeed true that your pastors say that as you state,

If you had been an SDA, then you know it is true.
then it would behoove SDAs to become Catholics just as soon as they can!!!
That wouldn’t help them. They know too much and aren’t living up to what they know.
 
And it goes on to list a number of tasks. So dj YOU ARE WRONG. You are NOT keeping the Sabbath as God told us to, you are keeping the Sabbath as Ellen White told you to.
You cited a Jewish source, not the Bible.
 
Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is God (also Christ) asking us to remember Him as Creator. Where does it mention Redeemer? And again, you are back in the Old Testament. Where in the New Testament does Christ ask us to remember Him? Wait for it… In the Eucharist! Right. And does he say anything about the Sabbath as he is asking us to remember Him in the Eucharist? Nope. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are called to mind in the Eucharist. It is the only way to remember all three as one. It is the finished product of an unfinished work of Creation + Salvation.

If you set up a temporary home to live in while your dreamhouse was being built, you wouldn’t continue to live in the temporary home when your dreamhome is a finished work would you? That’s what you are doing in thinking you are keeping the Sabbath. You are actually not keeping the Sabbath because Christ is our REST he said so himself. So you are totally denying Christ and the Creator just as the Jews do.

Two different things. The Sabbath is to remind us who made us and is a sign that it is God who sanctifies us.

Okay, stop right there. Where in Scripture is it said that we are under two separate covenants? Throughout the Gospels we are clearly told that Jesus is the New Covenant. There is no mention of two separate convenants that are to be followed. Please show me where you get that there are two separate covenants. You even said we are only under one at a time.

The Communion service (with foot-washing) is a rememberance of Christ’s life of service to save us.
 
Originally Posted by djconklin
you cited a jewish source, not the Bible.
the bible is a jewish source.

Then you won’t have any trouble showing the biblical texts that show SDA’s aren’t keeping the Sabbath as you have repeatedly claimed.
 
Originally Posted by djconklin
Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
This is God (also Christ) asking us to remember Him as Creator.

Correct!
Where does it mention Redeemer?
I’m not tallking about that. The Sabbath is for worship. Also, the Sabbath is a sign that it is God who sanctifies us:

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
And again, you are back in the Old Testament.
Not relevant. When the Bereans were commended for checking Scripture they were using the OT. When Paul referred to Abraham he was using the OT. When John wrote Revelation he has some 2,500 echoes, allusions, and quotes from the OT.
 
If you set up a temporary home to live in while your dreamhouse was being built, you wouldn’t continue to live in the temporary home when your dreamhome is a finished work would you? That’s what you are doing in thinking you are keeping the Sabbath. You are actually not keeping the Sabbath because Christ is our REST he said so himself. So you are totally denying Christ and the Creator just as the Jews do.
Neat example! However, the Sabbath as a physical rest is a sign that we are resting in Him and not just being lazy. Secondly, since Jesus hasn’t come yet and taken us home, we cannot enter our heavenly home.
 
The Jews didn’t bring in pagan traditions into the Christian church.

You don’t think pagans and Jews alike were offering burnt sacrifices? It is what it is. It was common in those times for all “spiritually guided” groups to do things like that. Whether pagan or Jew or other. This is what people did as a sacrifice. People were doing this long before the Jews did as God commanded them to do. Simply calling something pagan does not make it of the devil. Paganism describes a belief, not an action.

So no, it wasn’t the Jews who brought sacrifices into the Christian Church, it ws God. Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice. Would you call that pagan?

The truth is we can all find pagan characteristics in our religions and this is just an uninformed, ignorant claim of all those who attack the catholic Church.

If the people who told you that they were SDA’s have been telling you the things you have said about SDA’s on this forum, then I’m real glad I’m not one of them.
What?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top