downloading music and Burning CDs

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Of course it’s a sin. Is anyone really going to argue that stealing music one does not own via electronic distribution is not theft? It certainly is against civil law.

I’m amazed at the lengths through which many seem willing to go in order to justify electronic theft in their own minds.
 
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Alterum:
Of course it’s a sin. Is anyone really going to argue that stealing music one does not own via electronic distribution is not theft? It certainly is against civil law.

I’m amazed at the lengths through which many seem willing to go in order to justify electronic theft in their own minds.
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Well I think that is the question that must be answered. Is it stealing? Is it always stealing or only stealing in certain circumstances?
 
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DreadVandal:
Well I think that is the question that must be answered. Is it stealing? Is it always stealing or only stealing in certain circumstances?
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It’s violating copyright law. I have no idea how you define stealing. I would say that taking something which by law must be paid for, without paying for it, is stealing. I’m no legal scholar, but my guess is that this must be at least part of the legal definition.
 
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DreadVandal:
Well I think that is the question that must be answered. Is it stealing? Is it always stealing or only stealing in certain circumstances?
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OK, here is the best I can come up with on short notice.
** 2407 In economic matters, respect for human dignity requires the practice of the virtue of temperance, so as to moderate attachment to this world’s goods; the practice of the virtue of justice, to preserve our neighbor’s rights and render him what is his due; and the practice of solidarity, in accordance with the golden rule and in keeping with the generosity of the Lord, who “though he was rich, yet for your sake . . . became poor so that by his poverty, you might become rich.”[189] **

****2408 The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner. There is no theft if consent can be presumed or if refusal is contrary to reason and the universal destination of goods. This is the case in obvious and urgent necessity when the only way to provide for immediate, essential needs (food, shelter, clothing . . .) is to put at one’s disposal and use the property of others.[190] ****

So, theft is against the ten commandments, and as it states in the Catechism :
The seventh commandment forbids theft, that is, usurping another’s property against the reasonable will of the owner.

Considering the efforts the entertainment industry goes through to insure that we pay for each download, it is very safe to say that circumeventing the process to download a free copy is, in fact, usurping another’s property against their will. And thus, A sin.

A wise man once told me something that does seem to apply here…“In truth, we all know what is and is not right. Complications are the result of knowing what the right thing to do is, but trying to justify anything less.”
 
Umm… how is it NOT stealing? I’m a musician. If I write music and record a cd, that is my intellectual property. I have the RIGHT to say who can and can’t have a copy. If I make my living selling my music, and people start making copies against my permission, they are “stealing” my intellectual property and I can no longer make a living. So if this happens all over, there is no more music, software, books, movies, or anything that people share illegally and violate the copyright of.

Look at it like this, if someone spent 10 years researching something and created a great new invention, they would want to protect their idea. They can then patent their idea so no one else can “steal” their idea. This protects the hard work they did. It is the same with music. You are stealing the work done by the musicians and record companies IF you are downloading copyrighted music WITHOUT permission.

As far as the programs not being illegal, that is because there is nothing instrinsically wrong with the programs like limewire. The filesharing companies are protected because it isn’t their fault that people put up copyrighted music without permission. It would be like making copy machines illegal because someone could copy books and distribute them so authors don’t make any money. It wouldn’t be the copy machines fault (technology), it would be the person who misused the technology for illegal purposes.
 
Here is an interesting article:

dukenews.duke.edu/2003/09/filesharing20903.html

From some of the other research I’ve done, there seems to be no concensus as to what constitutes illegal downloading if we are talking about downloading for private, noncommercial use only. That being said, the burden of proof would be on the one doing the downloading to show that it was covered under fair use.

The fair use doctrine is something people frequently overlook in these discussions.
 
You guys have lost sight of one thing. I’ve said it before in this thread.

Any of us can subscribe to Rhapsody, Napster, etc. and download every song on the site to our computers. Remember Napster? The whole lawsuit evolved around NAPSTER!!!

This doesn’t not include burning this music to a CD or moving it to an iPod. You do have to purchase a license to do that.

If you think it’s illegal, then PROVE it to me. And I not talking about CCC. :mad:
 
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LeahInancsi:
You guys have lost sight of one thing. I’ve said it before in this thread.

Any of us can subscribe to Rhapsody, Napster, etc. and download every song on the site to our computers. Remember Napster? The whole lawsuit evolved around NAPSTER!!!

This doesn’t not include burning this music to a CD or moving it to an iPod. You do have to purchase a license to do that.

If you think it’s illegal, then PROVE it to me. And I not talking about CCC. :mad:
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So is napster paying for copyright priviledges then? I’ll check it out.

As far as burning your own legally acquired material onto CDs for personal use, that used to be legal, but its unclear that it is anymore. Companies are trying to outlaw all copying altogether.
 
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DreadVandal:
So is napster paying for copyright priviledges then? I’ll check it out.

As far as burning your own legally acquired material onto CDs for personal use, that used to be legal, but its unclear that it is anymore. Companies are trying to outlaw all copying altogether.
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You know, DreadVandal, I’m only a CPA, not a lawyer. If numerous very high profile music sites allow me and everyone else to download music to my computer, I’m going to assume it’s legal. These files CANNOT be burned to a CD or moved to an iPod. Something in the way the file is written won’t allow it.

At this point, with other things going on in my life, I really don’t care if I go to hell over this or not.
 
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LeahInancsi:
You know, DreadVandal, I’m only a CPA, not a lawyer. If numerous very high profile music sites allow me and everyone else to download music to my computer, I’m going to assume it’s legal. These files CANNOT be burned to a CD or moved to an iPod. Something in the way the file is written won’t allow it.

At this point, with other things going on in my life, I really don’t care if I go to hell over this or not.
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I did read on Napster’s site that you could buy permission to burn it on a CD.
 
Okay, I think those that argue that it is stealing are essentially right, at least if we are talking about copyrighted music in which the companies and artists who own the music still have a live interest. From my reading of the law and court cases, it seems that the question of whether there is active interest on the part of the artist/company is taken into account. This means that if it is something being produced and is for sale, then it would be illegal and immoral to download it without permission. For public domain stuff and other stuff that has been essentially abandoned, its another story.
 
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DreadVandal:
Okay, I think those that argue that it is stealing are essentially right, at least if we are talking about copyrighted music in which the companies and artists who own the music still have a live interest. From my reading of the law and court cases, it seems that the question of whether there is active interest on the part of the artist/company is taken into account. This means that if it is something being produced and is for sale, then it would be illegal and immoral to download it without permission. For public domain stuff and other stuff that has been essentially abandoned, its another story.
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I think that’s a reasonable conclusion.
 
Let’s cut through the foolishness.

This is stealing. Period.

You know this.

Kindly stop trying to rationalize what you know is wrong. Kindly stop trying to talk others into giving you “permission” to do something you know is wrong.

I saw this thread last evening and thought, “No, I won’t comment.” But here we are a day later, and folks are still trying to pretend that up is down, that wrong is right.

This is rubbish.

If you want the music, pay for it.

If it’s “out of print,” and unavailable – tough. You’re not entitled to it. You cannot have everything you want.

Yes, there are problems with copyright law. But so what? Since when do two wrongs make a right? That’s diametrically opposed to Catholic morality.
 
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LeahInancsi:
You guys have lost sight of one thing. I’ve said it before in this thread.

Any of us can subscribe to Rhapsody, Napster, etc. and download every song on the site to our computers. Remember Napster? The whole lawsuit evolved around NAPSTER!!!

This doesn’t not include burning this music to a CD or moving it to an iPod. You do have to purchase a license to do that.

If you think it’s illegal, then PROVE it to me. And I not talking about CCC.
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Napster, Rhapsody, etc have contractural legal deals worked out with most of the Record industry (thus explaining the absence of certain artists from labels who don’'t have deals) to allow that use and users of those services have to indicate acceptance of those terms to access the downloads themselves - thus the copyright holders have given limited permission to distribute in that setting, a grant not present in the cases of folks circumventing legally established processes.
 
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DreadVandal:
Here are some other thoughts. I record a television show on my VCR that I want a friend to see and then I show it to them or give them the tape to watch. Is that stealing? I use a casette recording and record songs I hear off the radio so I can listen to them later. Is that stealing?
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There is already some allowance for this under the copyright acts, and is ok so long as the recording are not maintained indefinately.
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DreadVandal:
If a music professor wants to sample some different popular music for a class, is downloading individual songs illegal? Is it immoral?
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If the professor is sampling parts of a selection of songs and deletes the recording shortly after use, that is ok under the fair use provisions. You are supposed to dispose of copies and limit the extent of the original work of text copies made for research purposes too, the same rules apply to music.
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DreadVandal:
Here’s one more scenario. A song or CD (or video game even) is no longer available for sale anywhere. The record company is not interested in republishing it. Someone happens to have a file with some songs from the CD (or happens to have a copy of the old game) online and is sharing it for free (not making any money off it). Is this illegal? What interests of the companies and artists have been violated if they aren’t even interested in selling it anymore?
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If the company isn’t interested in selling it anymore, you wait for copyright to expire. Disney used to intentionally limit distribution of its movies on video to maintain the theater market. I can’t recall the name, but I’ve heard of an artist who bought back the rights to certain parts of his music precisely to prevent its further distribution in any form, something to do with a change of heart on a subject and trying to limit harm done in his mind.
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DreadVandal:
Taking someone else’s allergy medication may also be illegal, but there may be a situation in which you need that medication without having time and money to go get a prescription. Is that immoral? I’ve had very sound confessors tell me that it isn’t.
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Morally speaking, there is even legitimate reason to take another’s physical property without permission in cases of life or death need, this particular use, done with a legitimate need for care and with the permission of the person owning the pills, is acceptable from a moral standpoint, as hte property traded hands with permission of the owners and for a pressing health purpose, the only thing circumvented was the regulatory process in palce to protect the consumer from misapplication of certain medications.
 
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LeahInancsi:
You know, DreadVandal, I’m only a CPA, not a lawyer. If numerous very high profile music sites allow me and everyone else to download music to my computer, I’m going to assume it’s legal. These files CANNOT be burned to a CD or moved to an iPod. Something in the way the file is written won’t allow it.

At this point, with other things going on in my life, I really don’t care if I go to hell over this or not.
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You know…if I am in a hotel room, and nothing in the room is locked down, I’m going to ASSUME it is alright to take the TV.

It is virtually impossible to lock down a file, particularly music.
Just because the lock is not there, or is shoddy, does not give you free reign over it. It is still someone elses property.

Theft is theft
Hell is hell.
And I really hope you did not mean what you stated.
 
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DreadVandal:
Okay, I think those that argue that it is stealing are essentially right, at least if we are talking about copyrighted music in which the companies and artists who own the music still have a live interest. From my reading of the law and court cases, it seems that the question of whether there is active interest on the part of the artist/company is taken into account. This means that if it is something being produced and is for sale, then it would be illegal and immoral to download it without permission. For public domain stuff and other stuff that has been essentially abandoned, its another story.
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👍
 
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LeahInancsi:
You guys have lost sight of one thing. I’ve said it before in this thread.

Any of us can subscribe to Rhapsody, Napster, etc. and download every song on the site to our computers. Remember Napster? The whole lawsuit evolved around NAPSTER!!!

This doesn’t not include burning this music to a CD or moving it to an iPod. You do have to purchase a license to do that.

If you think it’s illegal, then PROVE it to me. And I not talking about CCC. :mad:
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PROVE it?
And you will not accept the CCC?

How silly.
I noted in your profile you still believe your Catholic.
If you do not accept the CCC, then how is this possible?
 
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