Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[RGCheek]

On genetics, we should be careful in general about assuming too much. Hardly a day goes by when we don’t learn something about genetics that surprises us, and the common assumption that there’s a gene at work here might be wholly in error, or poorly understood.

I am not assuming anything other than the superiority of Free Will, meaning that we can have genetic influences to our behavior but we always still have a choice.

The ongoing debate between behavioral determinism and proponents of free will didn’t start yesterday nor did they conclude yesterday either.

IT is amusing at times to read of studies done where choice has already been made but the determinist researcher simply assumes there has not.

 

[RGCheek]

:clapping::tiphat: I agree completely! And I have seen people being mocked for 4 children. And someone asked a cousin of mine with 8 children, “Are they all yours?” :banghead:

+Pax.

They have 8 children and need support?

If I had 8 kids I would be ready for a lobotomy.

Might be ready anyway.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Cardinal Müller raps ‘shameful’ bias in interim Synod report

The prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has denounced an interim report from the Synod of Bishops as “worthless.”

Cardinal Gerhard Müller, speaking in one of the Synod’s small working groups after the release of the relation post disceptationem, said that the document was “completely wrong” in its portrayal of the Synod fathers’ discussion. He said that it was “shameful” that the report had suppressed some points of view while promoting others.

catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=22933

 

[Rau]

Joie de Vivre:

Sexual orientation is about how one is oriented with regards to sex/gender of other people. An attraction to violence on the other hand is a fetish.

Your own personal definition, which you are entitled to but which many will not agree with.

Joie’s use of the expression “sexual orientation” is the pretty conventional. A random dictionary I consulted provides this definition:

Dictionary:

Sexual Orientation: a person’s sexual identity in relation to the gender to which they are attracted; the fact of being heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.

If someone wants to “connect” with the Church in such a way that they don’t abide by or accept its teachings, but rather, through the example of their lives, supplant it, their connection must necessarily be considered of a different “type” than the “believing” Catholic.

Large numbers of Catholics reject Church teaching in areas such as contraception. For the most part, their sin is not visible and they experience no difficulty in exercising a connection with the Church. Ideally, we would aspire to no less openness to homosexual persons. If a homosexual person is open about the fact that they are involved in a physically intimate same sex relationship, I agree that presents special difficulty in a community situation.

 

[Kurisu35712]

All of this is assuming that they will repent. This will be the third time I have said this:

I have a friend who used to be an active lesbian. She has repented of that lifestyle. She now uses her same-sex attraction as her ethos for living a chaste life in Christ. That’s what is possibly meant by “valuing the orientation”.

I’m only on page 24 of wherever the thread has gone by now as of this post, but I wanted to point out that I saw your posts and I appreciate them. Not everyone who has same sex attraction is currently in a spiritual position to accept the call to chastity, so it is very inspiring that your friend has reached that point in her spiritual journey. I completely agree with your analysis of the synod’s wording.

To all posters on this thread, please bear in mind when discussing all of this that the call to chastity is often nowhere near an easy vocation for the people called to it. The entire purpose of this “pastoral language” is to provide a sense of support for those striving to live that calling. Furthermore, the Church wants to bring those who may not understand that vocation to a place where they may embrace chastity and the freedom it provides, as well as those who are currently in active opposition to that vocation. The Church’s mission is to spread the Gospel and in doing so bring as many people to Christ as God wills. The Church will not declare homosexual acts (or premarital acts or extramarital acts for that matter) to no longer be sins, because the Church cannot do that.

 

[_Abyssinia]

My pick of some of Catholic News Service today’s from today’s press briefing and otherwise, not in order of time posted:

Vatican “updates” English translation of #Synod14 midterm report. bit.ly/ZWuxDz

“Updated” English translation of #Synod14 midterm report changes “welcoming homosexuals” to “providing for homosexuals"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713149506863105

Vatican spokesman says new translation reflects “various suggestions” by #Synod14 fathers, but Italian word remains “accogliere” (welcome)

Vatican spokesman appeals to press not to make much of translation, since midterm report a working document …

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713732733231104

English relatio now refers to mutual sacrifice in gay relationships, but “partners” is now “these persons” Italian original used “partners.”

twitter.com/JohnThavis/status/522703577509543936

Vatican spokesman said small groups delivered there amendments to #Synod14 midterm report this morning

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705749424996352

Vatican spokesman says #Synod14 “message” (NOT final report) expected to be approved Saturday

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705971593109505

Vatican spokesman says small group reports will be published!

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706126450999296

#Synod14 debated whether or not to publish small group reports, and majority said yes

General Secretary of #Synod14 stresses that published discussion group reports will be “working documents"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706948693958658

+Muller says he never said #Synod14 midterm report was “shameful” and “completely erroneous"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522707139505438720

Vatican spokesman says @pontifex has added 2 to #Synod14 drafting committee: @CardinalNapier and +Hart

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522708459557773314

Vatican spokesman says unlikely #Synod14 final report will be published Saturday evening, but results of approval vote yes

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522714302772686849

 

[_Abyssinia]

My pick of some tweets regarding today’s press briefing and otherwise, not in order of time posted:

Vatican “updates” English translation of #Synod14 midterm report. bit.ly/ZWuxDz

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522702462625800192

“Updated” English translation of #Synod14 midterm report changes “welcoming homosexuals” to “providing for homosexuals"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713149506863105

Vatican spokesman says new translation reflects “various suggestions” by #Synod14 fathers, but Italian word remains “accogliere” (welcome)

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713528361570304

Vatican spokesman appeals to press not to make much of translation, since midterm report a working document …

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713732733231104

English relatio now refers to mutual sacrifice in gay relationships, but “partners” is now “these persons” Italian original used “partners.”

twitter.com/JohnThavis/status/522703577509543936

Vatican spokesman said small groups delivered there amendments to #Synod14 midterm report this morning

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705749424996352

Vatican spokesman says #Synod14 “message” (NOT final report) expected to be approved Saturday

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705971593109505

Vatican spokesman says small group reports will be published!

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706126450999296

#Synod14 debated whether or not to publish small group reports, and majority said yes

General Secretary of #Synod14 stresses that published discussion group reports will be “working documents"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706948693958658

+Muller says he never said #Synod14 midterm report was “shameful” and “completely erroneous"

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522707139505438720

Vatican spokesman says @pontifex has added 2 to #Synod14 drafting committee: @CardinalNapier and +Hart

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522708459557773314

Vatican spokesman says unlikely #Synod14 final report will be published Saturday evening, but results of approval vote yes

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522714302772686849

.@KardinalWien says #Synod14 final report will include “many expressions of caution” compared with midterm report

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522717432960778240

.@KardinalWien, editor of current Catechism, says he sees "no need for changes,” though there have been “developments,” e.g. cohabitation

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522718035795509249

 

[Yeoman]

We’ve also learned somewhat recently that there are factors that have permanent effects by the time of birth and are not genetic.

Not only that, but a fairly shocking recent finding is that stress in adults can actually manifest itself in genetic expressions in their offspring. This hasn’t been found to apply, in so far as I know, to the topic at hand, but it applies to some other conditions apparently.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Your own personal definition, which you are entitled to but which many will not agree with.

I don’t know how it is in East Asia, but my explanation happens to be the definition most used in the US, most common in dictionaries and is used by the APA.

You can apply that argument to any kind of lifestyle - who gets to decide the number or degree of defining characteristics? . . . and people regularly talk about the lifestyles of certain peoples, including the French. It may well include generalizations but almost all meaningful sentences include generalizations of a type.

For it to be a lifestyle there would need to be something that their life revolves around. There is no more a gay lifestyle than a heterosexual life.

If someone wants to “connect” with the Church in such a way that they don’t abide by or accept its teachings, but rather, through the example of their lives, supplant it, their connection must necessarily be considered of a different “type” than the “believing” Catholic.

Catholics in recent months have been very fond of quoting St Francis as saying"preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words". The point being that your actions speak louder than your words. People who live openly in a relationship explicitly forbidden by God are constantly making a statement to the people around them, including young people. This document blurs that issue.

The same principle applies to those that enter into a second marriage, i.e. a public, legally recognized union. Their “lifestyles”, or if you prefer, “actions”, speak against God.

So we shouldn’t evangelize to people who aren’t perfect Catholics without being Catholic?

Do you know what the term gradualism means? Growing in the Christian faith isn’t a one off thing, it is a process.

No one here is arguing that it is unimportant for people to repent their sins, what people are arguing is that someone becoming will to enter a Catholic church is a good first step and being willing to talk to a priest is another.

Not only that, but a fairly shocking recent finding is that stress in adults can actually manifest itself in genetic expressions in their offspring. This hasn’t been found to apply, in so far as I know, to the topic at hand, but it applies to some other conditions apparently.

I’ve heard that stress in someone can alter genetic expression, but I’ve never heard that, source?

 

[OraLabora]

I am not assuming anything other than the superiority of Free Will, meaning that we can have genetic influences to our behavior but we always still have a choice.

The ongoing debate between behavioral determinism and proponents of free will didn’t start yesterday nor did they conclude yesterday either.

IT is amusing at times to read of studies done where choice has already been made but the determinist researcher simply assumes there has not.

From my point of view and experience, freedom to engage in your passions (whether ordered or disordered) merely enslaves you to your passions and thus achieves the very opposite of “freedom”. For example if the passion is material (possessions), you end up possessed by your possessions. I’m pretty sure it’s much the same for disordered sexual passions. Freedom from those can only come from resisting the temptation to give in. But it’s no doubt not an easy thing to achieve. It requires the sacrament of reconciliation, a genuine motivation to change, a conversion of the heart, and a desire to draw closer to God. The latter is vitally important, it’s really the only thing we have that’s reliable enough to work this conversion. When we were small kids, we often wanted to please our parents. When we are older, it is through conversion of the heart that we want to please our Father who is in Heaven, and that’s when we start to gain some traction against our passions.

The trick here is to draw people into the Church without discouraging them, being able to nourish them, and help them with their conversion of the heart, yet at the same time not giving license to give in indiscriminately to one’s passions.

I think that’s the balance the bishops need to achieve. It starts with meeting people where they are, and working with them along the journey. I personally am of the opinion that without sacramental grace, it is an impossible mission, and therefore I believe that the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Eucharist need to play key roles here; not as prizes to be eventually earned, but as the font of sacramental grace necessary to nourish the journey.

With regards to free will, I am also of the opinion that for many disorders and addictions, the will rather than being free, is enslaved. One goal of conversion should be to finally free the will from its passions in order to allow it to submit freely to God.

 

[_Abyssinia]

English grp “A” suggests final synod doc be stronger vs. irregular situations; ok are seeds of goodness in ppl, but acts are unacceptable

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522729861560168448

In proposed changes from Eng. grp “A”: change listening to & accompany ppl to seeing ppl thru lens of Gospel, judge & accompany

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522729085995597824

English grp “A” wants clarity that “graduality” is NOT about blurring doctrine, but is gradual moral growth of individuals #Synod14

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522731653513617409

Eng. grp “A” says language must be respectful, not hurt ppl, but must speak Gospel truth, clearly, directly. Is not condemnation, is care

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522732218616381442

For reference: English group A of the small groups included Cardinals Burke, Gracias, +Dew of NZ #Synod14

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522734411276877824

Eng. grp “B” included Card.s Napier & Dolan, Absp Diarmuid Martin. Says want more on positive family examples, less on problems #Synod14

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522735788807950336

Eng. grp ‘B’ says midterm ‘relatio’ makes ppl ‘less enthusiastic’ about pursuing Christian marriage. Final doc must make it attractive

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522737127625596928

Eng. grp “B:” Clear leadership about best path for life can only come from Church; to not be clear, to not give witness wud fail humanity

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522738315687362560

Eng. grp “C” included +Wuerl, +Kurtz & Hart: would like #Synod14 to convey beauty of, confidence in marriage. Encourage couples of faith

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522741305336922112

Eng. grp C says OK to welcome ppl in irregular situations, but not suggest they should not strive for truth, conversion to go&sin no more

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522742109535993856

 

[ProVobis]

I can only wonder how many other languages need fixing to make it sound palatable.

 

[anthonymarie]

Joie’s use of the expression “sexual orientation” is the pretty conventional. A random dictionary I consulted provides this definition: etc

Definition: SEXUAL: of, relating to, or associated with sex
Definition: ORIENTATION: positioning: the positioning of something, or the position or direction in which something lies

If the term is most commonly applied to homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual groups it is because these constitute the only socially acceptable sexualities that are generally discussed openly but there are people who are"sexually" “oriented” towards other groups, children for instance.

If you are going to police the term “sexual orientation” may I still use the term “sexually oriented towards”?

Large numbers of Catholics reject Church teaching in areas such as contraception. For the most part, their sin is not visible and they experience no difficulty in exercising a connection with the Church.

Spiritually speaking I would argue this is flat out untrue. I believe those who reject Church teaching experience serious difficulty in connecting with Church - Church teaching (rather ironically) teaches this. In fact, hardly anyone would deny that the Churches started emptying round about the time people started rejecting the authority of the Church - so obviously rejecting the teaching of the Church does create difficulties in connecting with the Church.

Ideally, we would aspire to no less openness to homosexual persons. If a homosexual person is open about the fact that they are involved in a physically intimate same sex relationship, I agree that presents special difficulty in a community situation.

“No less openness”? The Church is not “open” to people inventing their own contradictory teachings in any area. Not sexuality, not contraception. As you said, if you use contraception privately know one knows, so they don’t act. That’s not openness. At best it’s lethargy.

 

[Deltadeliquent]

For it to be a lifestyle there would need to be something that their life revolves around. There is no more a gay lifestyle than a heterosexual lifestyle

Actually, their lifestyle revolves around their same sex attraction. Few, if any heterosexuals go around shouting that they are straight. Nor is it one of the first things out of their mouth when they meet someone new. Straightness is taken for granted because it is the norm and the way nature I tended things to work. Homosexuality is not the norm, nor is it the way things are meant to work.

 

[catholictiger]

Has the possible translation error been mentioned?

What I heard was that value should have been translated as evaluated.

Keep in mind that these are summaries that will guide the discussions which will lead to more discussions and eventually after a couple other documents will be the official statements to the pope who from that in a about a years time will speak authoritatively in a Apostolic Exhortation.

This is like saying a company is going to make a major change because a supervisor is going to ask a question to his supervisor who will than make a suggestion to the CEO secretary who will than talk to the CEO, than the CEO will make the change if he sees fit.

The Church needs to keep things closer to the chest and not let things get out this easily. People overreact way to easily.

 

[catholictiger]

My pick of some tweets regarding today’s press briefing and otherwise, not in order of time posted:

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522702462625800192

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713149506863105

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713528361570304

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522713732733231104

twitter.com/JohnThavis/status/522703577509543936

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705749424996352

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522705971593109505

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706126450999296

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522706948693958658

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522707139505438720

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522708459557773314

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522714302772686849

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522717432960778240

twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/522718035795509249

thanks for all these twitter updates but this sounds all like speculation about reports of discussions that will eventually voted on than given to the Pope who will begin to write an apostolic exhortation.

 

[TMC]

Actually, their lifestyle revolves around their same sex attraction. Few, if any heterosexuals go around shouting that they are straight. Nor is it one of the first things out of their mouth when they meet someone new. Straightness is taken for granted because it is the norm and the way nature I tended things to work. Homosexuality is not the norm, nor is it the way things are meant to work.

I don’t know any gay people that go around shouting that they are gay, or who introduce themselves that way. If there are any people (gay or straight) that act that way they seem to be a very small minority. Most gay people’s lives revolve around the same things as straight people - family, church, work. If that is a “homosexual lifestyle,” it seems a lot like the “heterosexual lifestyle.”

 

[anthonymarie]

I don’t know how it is in East Asia, but my explanation happens to be the definition most used in the US, most common in dictionaries and is used by the APA.

I answer this in my previous post.

For it to be a lifestyle there would need to be something that their life revolves around. There is no more a gay lifestyle than a heterosexual life.

Most cities do not have a “heterosexual” quarter. Agree to disagree.

So we shouldn’t evangelize to people who aren’t perfect Catholics without being Catholic?

I’m rereading what I wrote and I’m seriously struggling to see how you managed to deduce that based on what I said, maybe you could explain in a little more detail how you arrived so quickly at that conclusion based on what I said.

Do you know what the term gradualism means? Growing in the Christian faith isn’t a one off thing, it is a process.

Gradualism does not imply blurring any lines, a lot of people seem to confuse gradualism
with a Buddhist monk from a movie who only reveals the truth to his student when he’s ready for it. We are not Scientologists, we don’t initiate people into our teachings when “they’re ready”. We are open and truthful from the start.

No one here is arguing that it is unimportant for people to repent their sins, what people are arguing is that someone becoming will to enter a Catholic church is a good first step and being willing to talk to a priest is another.

Hmmm, not sure that’s what people are arguing. I’ve never heard of any person (in a homosexual relationship or otherwise) being banned from entering a Catholic Church or being banned from talking to a priest. In fact, I can’t find a single post on here nor remember ever reading one where someone suggests that would be even OK.

 

[OraLabora]

I don’t know any gay people that go around shouting that they are gay, or who introduce themselves that way. If there are any people (gay or straight) that act that way they seem to be a very small minority. Most gay people’s lives revolve around the same things as straight people - family, church, work. If that is a “homosexual lifestyle,” it seems a lot like the “heterosexual lifestyle.”

Agree. I know a few gays through work and socially, and none of them shout it from the rooftops. One mustn’t generalize all gays based on vocal activists. Do we generalize about pro-life folks based on the excessive acts of a few? I hope not. Most gays I know just want to get on with life like the rest of us. A few vocal activists seem to have a chip on their shoulders, but most are low-profile.

 

[OraLabora]

Most cities do not have a “heterosexual” quarter. Agree to disagree.

My city does have a “Gay Village”. It also has a (heterosexual) red light district, a couple of Jewish neighborhoods, a “Little Italy”, a Chinatown, an Irish neighbourhood, a Latin Quarter, etc.

Gradualism does not imply blurring any lines, a lot of people seem to confuse gradualism
with a Buddhist monk from a movie who only reveals the truth to his student when he’s ready for it. We are not Scientologists, we don’t initiate people into our teachings when “they’re ready”. We are open and truthful from the start.

I agree with you here. We are called to witness to the Gospel at all times. Gradualism though, does not mean revealing the Truth slowly bit by bit. It’s up-front about the Truth, but it recognizes that becoming Holy and fully part of the Body of Christ is a life-long conversion process. For each and every one of us.

For all of us who are sinful, this is true. What seems to be questionable in my mind, is that we single out some specific sins and say that, well, they cut you off from the sacramental life of the Church. I can be a notorious tax cheat or womanizer in just about every parish and still have access to the sacraments. For other sins, we say “no, you can’t approach the table”.

The womanizer who wants to come closer to God and grow in holiness, can work with his confessor, receive the Eucharist, and allow sacramental grace to lead him to holiness. The gay person living with their partner cannot in many places. Gradualism starts by meeting them where they are, showing them a path to freedom, and helping them walk along that path step by step; helping them back up when they fall down, sharing in the rejoicing when they make significant leaps forward.