True. The gay people I know live a life like everyone else without pushing an overt agenda around town. I do business with quite a few and you would not know they are gay if you didn’t know the living arrangements.Agree. I know a few gays through work and socially, and none of them shout it from the rooftops. One mustn’t generalize all gays based on vocal activists. Do we generalize about pro-life folks based on the excessive acts of a few? I hope not. Most gays I know just want to get on with life like the rest of us. A few vocal activists seem to have a chip on their shoulders, but most are low-profile.
That does seem to be true; secular society seems to question and condemn in particular the Gospel values at every twist and turn. Much of it does revolve around sexual license: divorce, abortion, ABC, same-sex “marriage”, etc.However, there is a larger agenda, which it seems to me is not so much pro-gay as it is against traditional values of any kind.
I think the confession here centers around the identifying people as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or transgendor. We shouldn’t identify them in this way. If person x has deeply seeded homosexual tendency they are not a homosexual, they have the tendencies of a homosexual.I don’t know any gay people that go around shouting that they are gay, or who introduce themselves that way. If there are any people (gay or straight) that act that way they seem to be a very small minority. Most gay people’s lives revolve around the same things as straight people - family, church, work. If that is a “homosexual lifestyle,” it seems a lot like the “heterosexual lifestyle.”
I don’t know about that. Chastity is a traditional value and marriage is an expression of Chastity. The push for same sex marriage doesn’t seek to destroy traditional values, they want to be a part of it! Please keep in mind I’m speaking of civil marriage, not Sacramental Marriage.True. The gay people I know live a life like everyone else without pushing an overt agenda around town. I do business with quite a few and you would not know they are gay if you didn’t know the living arrangements.
However, there is a larger agenda,** which it seems to me is not so much pro-gay as it is against traditional values of any kind**.
People I take at their word.I don’t know about that. Chastity is a traditional value and marriage is an expression of Chastity. The push for same sex marriage doesn’t seek to destroy traditional values, they want to be a part of it! Please keep in mind I’m speaking of civil marriage, not Sacramental Marriage.
I believe we should take people at their word and in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, should believe they have the best intentions. Christ did ask us to treat others like we want to be treated. I personally don’t want people to think I’m a liar and conspirator. (ETA: in the interest of honesty I fail at this often).
Point taken. I misunderstood what you meant.People I take at their word.
Organizations, media, entertainment industry, not so much. That’s all I’m saying.
. Up to you. I just pointed out what the term means, according to the Dictionary. if you intend something else, readers will likely misunderstand you.If you are going to police the term “sexual orientation” may I still use the term “sexually oriented towards”?
That’s true for many. And yet the Churches are filled with sinners, many wedded to our sins, but trying to remain within the “orbit” of grace.I believe those who reject Church teaching experience serious difficulty in connecting with Church - Church teaching (rather ironically) teaches this. In fact, hardly anyone would deny that the Churches started emptying round about the time people started rejecting the authority of the Church - so obviously rejecting the teaching of the Church does create difficulties in connecting with the Church.
I didn’t suggest open to heresy, but open to “people”.The Church is not “open” to people inventing their own contradictory teachings in any area. Not sexuality, not contraception.
On what I bolded above - I think that sometimes when people learn someone is gay, then all of a sudden that is how they see that person. I think that gay people rarely think of their orientation as being the source of their identity, and don’t want others to, either. But for some people, that is all they can see. We should all strive to see everyone as a whole person, created in God’s image and dignity, and not reduce anyone to a single characteristic.I think the confession here centers around the identifying people as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or transgendor. We shouldn’t identify them in this way. If person x has deeply seeded homosexual tendency they are not a homosexual, they have the tendencies of a homosexual.
to compare to a similar situation, I have the tendencies of a passionate sports fan, but I’m not identified as passion sports fan. When someone says I’m a LSU fan, they aren’t saying that my nature as a person is LSU fan.
I think what happens is that when someone says I’m gay or I’m lesbian, they are in a way saying their fundamental identity is set by their sexual orientation. So when the Church says homosexual acts are evil, people mistakenly say the Church says Homosexuals are evil. This is far from what we are saying.
All people have one fundamental identity, a Human Being created in the image and likeness of God, anything less, causes us to destroy the true nature of the person, and is a large threat to society.
"We should start treat
Those might work for a “catholic”, but they don’t work for “Catholicism”.
Agreed Natural Law, and Moral Law both have God as their Author. Fornication is defined as sexual relations between unmarried man and woman. There is no inherent violation as to the use of the sexual organs, God designed them to be used that way, but He didn’t intend their wrongful use, a moral disorder, a rational being acting irrationally which involves intelligence and will only.
- Natural law and the moral law are not separate things.
- Fornication has been identified by both Aquinas and the Catholic Church as intrinsically disordered
- Intrinsically disordered quite simply means it is “always wrong to choose”, for example gay sex and fornication are always wrong to choose.
In a homo-sexual act there is the wrongful use of the sex organs in the moral order involving the intelligence and will, and the disordered use of the organs, which is an unnatural physical action, and this is what makes it intrinsically disordered- intrinsic meaning belong to the real nature of a thing. the real nature of the sexual organs are obvious, propagation as their ultimate purpose, and they are designed to be complimentary, the means to reach their ultimate purpose. The ultimate purpose is frustrated, it is not only sinful but unnatural. Since is goes against the purpose of their natural use, then it becomes intrinsic, unnatural.
How does fornication become intrinsically wrong, it is morally wrong, the use of the organs are used in a natural way. If it is truly Church teaching, I accept, but then why does the Church make a distinction, and call homo-sexual acts intrinsically disordered, and not fornication,this is new to me. If you have specific Church references that could explain this I would appreciate those references, and thanks
The Church does not make that distinction between fornication and homosexual acts. Both are intrinsically disordered.[How does fornication become intrinsically wrong, it is morally wrong, the use of the organs are used in a natural way. If it is truly Church teaching, I accept, but then why does the Church make a distinction, and call homo-sexual acts intrinsically disordered, and not fornication,this is new to me. If you have specific Church references that could explain this I would appreciate those references, and thanks
Catechism said:1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered
Catechism said:2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.
404 Not FoundI answer this in my previous post.
Medieval towns didn’t have Gentile quarters (because the rest of the town except the Jewish quarter were for Gentiles).Most cities do not have a “heterosexual” quarter. Agree to disagree.
Your point on how people “connect” lacks clarity and thus is wide open for misunderstanding.I’m rereading what I wrote and I’m seriously struggling to see how you managed to deduce that based on what I said, maybe you could explain in a little more detail how you arrived so quickly at that conclusion based on what I said.
Of course it doesn’t, compassion is not however telling LGBT people that the Catholic Church loves them then launching into a tirade comparing gay sex with bestiality, how God has destroyed cities for sodomy, lectures on how gay sex causes STDs, etc. There are much better ways to discuss it that more accurately convey Catholic teaching and are more polite.Gradualism does not imply blurring any lines, a lot of people seem to confuse gradualism
with a Buddhist monk from a movie who only reveals the truth to his student when he’s ready for it. We are not Scientologists, we don’t initiate people into our teachings when “they’re ready”. We are open and truthful from the start.
How a lot of “conservative” Catholics talk about LGBT people makes them feel distinctly unwelcome.Hmmm, not sure that’s what people are arguing. I’ve never heard of any person (in a homosexual relationship or otherwise) being banned from entering a Catholic Church or being banned from talking to a priest. In fact, I can’t find a single post on here nor remember ever reading one where someone suggests that would be even OK.
People can identify as LGBTQ without meaning it ontologically and the terms can be used to apply to people without meaning it ontologically. I personally find it bizarre that basically the only time someone saying “I am X” is assumed to be referring to their ontological nature is when X is homosexuality.I think the confession here centers around the identifying people as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or transgendor. We shouldn’t identify them in this way. If person x has deeply seeded homosexual tendency they are not a homosexual, they have the tendencies of a homosexual.
to compare to a similar situation, I have the tendencies of a passionate sports fan, but I’m not identified as passion sports fan. When someone says I’m a LSU fan, they aren’t saying that my nature as a person is LSU fan.
I think what happens is that when someone says I’m gay or I’m lesbian, they are in a way saying their fundamental identity is set by their sexual orientation. So when the Church says homosexual acts are evil, people mistakenly say the Church says Homosexuals are evil. This is far from what we are saying.
All people have one fundamental identity, a Human Being created in the image and likeness of God, anything less, causes us to destroy the true nature of the person, and is a large threat to society.
Philadelphia has a gay quarter officially called the “Gayborhood”My city does have a “Gay Village”. It also has a (heterosexual) red light district, a couple of Jewish neighborhoods, a “Little Italy”, a Chinatown, an Irish neighbourhood, a Latin Quarter, etc.
I find our gay village pretty grotesque as well, but no more so that the (mostly heterosexual, mostly strip joints) red light district which is also where most of the street prostitutes hang out.Philadelphia has a gay quarter officially called the “Gayborhood”
For example, if you visit the official Visit Philly website (www.visitphilly.com), it is very hard to find anything about the gay lifestyle. But if you know to simply visit www.visitphilly.com/gay then there is a ton of info about the Gayborhood and gay events, etc.
It’s very much a lifestyle and a sinful one at that.
They even have an event called “Sinful Sundays” and “Temptress Tuesdays”
:dts:
But there is also a real commitment to speaking Truthfully to the person that trumps the avoidance of giving offense or discouragement. Each of us are different from the other and what discourages some merely challenge others, so there is no simple formula for determining if one is losing the person through being overly harsh or overly indulgent and the person in concern gives up because of a feeling that we do not take their struggle seriously.The trick here is to draw people into the Church without discouraging them, being able to nourish them, and help them with their conversion of the heart, yet at the same time not giving license to give in indiscriminately to one’s passions.
The Eucharist is the Body of Christ, a sacred thing. It is not a crutch or a ploy to make one feel better about themselves, etc.I think that’s the balance the bishops need to achieve. It starts with meeting people where they are, and working with them along the journey. I personally am of the opinion that without sacramental grace, it is an impossible mission, and therefore I believe that the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Eucharist need to play key roles here; not as prizes to be eventually earned, but as the font of sacramental grace necessary to nourish the journey.
WE make big choices that leap from one place in our lives to another, but most of the time we take small baby steps to where we are going.With regards to free will, I am also of the opinion that for many disorders and addictions, the will rather than being free, is enslaved. One goal of conversion should be to finally free the will from its passions in order to allow it to submit freely to God.
I referred to your reference and find no opposition to my statements, agreed lie and calumny are intrinsically evil but these are the only two references. What makes them evil is that they are contrary to man’s nature and do not represent what he is thinking, it is natural for man to desire to know the truth, to tell a lie is going against his nature designed by God intrinsic in this case means to go against the natural design of God in human nature. St. Paul calls homosexual acts as unnatural, going against nature, a consequence of turning their backs on God, He left them to their own irrationality Unless I see explicit proof that the Church treats fornication the same as homo-sexual acts, that is that fornication is , perverted, disordered the same as the homosexual act, I will maintain my position to be consistent with the truth. I do maintain that it is an immoral act, performed in a natural way, not in an unnatural way as homo-sexuality. there is a difference. I am talking about the acts and not those performing the acts.The Church does not make that distinction between fornication and homosexual acts. Both are intrinsically disordered.
There are many Acts which are “intrinsically disordered” - Fornication is one of them. Fornication is intrinsically evil, evil in itself, and good intentions and the like can’t make the act moral. That is the meaning of Intrinsically…
source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a4.htm
You cannot debate the goodness or evilness of “sexual relations” anymore than you can debate the goodness or evilness of “talking”. The Act is inadequately defined. Morality is a concept to be applied to actual human acts - not every verb in the dictionary.
Where have I said that the Church not speak truthfully? It’s implied in the “not giving license” statement. Where have I said sinners don’t need to repent?But there is also a real commitment to speaking Truthfully to the person that trumps the avoidance of giving offense or discouragement. Each of us are different from the other and what discourages some merely challenge others, so there is no simple formula for determining if one is losing the person through being overly harsh or overly indulgent and the person in concern gives up because of a feeling that we do not take their struggle seriously.
Oftentimes the BEST thing we can do to encourage a person is to RAISE their standards and challenge them instead of lowering standards that must not be too important anyway.
The Eucharist is the Body of Christ, a sacred thing. It is not a crutch or a ploy to make one feel better about themselves, etc.
Those who take the eucharist without being properly prepared are committing mortal sin.
I would think the person giving them the eucherist knowing that they are not prepared to take it have some responsibility also.
WE make big choices that leap from one place in our lives to another, but most of the time we take small baby steps to where we are going.
In the end, it is all still free will.
All Acts which are always wrong to choose, regardless of Intentions and Circumstances, are described as “intrinsically evil”.I referred to your reference and find no opposition to my statements, agreed lie and calumny are intrinsically evil but these are the only two references.
ronconte.wordpress.com/2014/07/22/the-catechism-of-the-catholic-church-on-lying/Any act that is immoral by its very nature is an intrinsically evil act. Other terms used to refer to intrinsically evil acts include: “intrinsically disordered”, “intrinsically immoral”, “intrinsically wrong”, and “something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order.” The Magisterium often expresses the very same doctrine using different terms. Diversity of expression tends toward clarity of meaning.
It may interest you to know that Thomas Aquinas said that “all sex between men and women outside marriage is intrinsically disordered". He reasoned this on the ground that the marriage law aims to prevent ‘rampant’ sex, which is not fit for child-rearing, and which would lead to parents not knowing with certainty who are their children - an entirely unnatural outcome.If acts are intrinsically evil, a good intention or particular circumstances can diminish their evil, but they cannot remove it. They remain “irremediably” evil acts; per se and in themselves they are not capable of being ordered to God and to the good of the person. “As for acts which are themselves sins (cum iam opera ipsa peccata sunt), Saint Augustine writes, like theft, fornication, blasphemy, who would dare affirm that, by doing them for good motives (causis bonis), they would no longer be sins, or, what is even more absurd, that they would be sins that are justified?”.
Consequently, circumstances or intentions can never transform an act intrinsically evil by virtue of its object into an act “subjectively” good or defensible as a choice.
…Marco Tosatti sets the tense scene in the Hall this Thursday:
Code:"An additional [act of] censorship, and the Synod Fathers rise up. / The General Secretariat of the Synod announced the decision of not publishing the relationes of the Circuli Minores. Erdo took the floor, distancing himself from the relatio [post disceptationem] published under his name, and saying that, if that 'disceptatio' had been published, also those of the Circuli Minores, the commissions, had to be. His intervention was followed by numerous others in succession, with the same tone, underscored by thunderous applause. The Secretary of the Synod, Cardinal Baldisseri, looked at the Pope, as if searching for advice and light, and the Pope remained mute and extremely serious. Also mute remained the under-secretaries to the Synod, Fabene, Forte, Schönborn and Maradiaga. Kasper was not present. At the end, Father Lombardi announced that the relationes of the Commissions will be made public."
Read the entire thing hereAnd, because of this collective revolt of the Synod majority, you are now able to read the conclusions below…
Thanks for the link. God bless.heh…
Read the entire thing here
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-conclusions-of-synods-small-groups.html
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523070885599903744
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523071005259210752+Marx says Fr. Lombardi is spokesman for @pontifex …
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523071269072547840+Marx says German bishops discussed +Kasper Communion proposal before #Synod14, as part of dialogue with lay people
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523071434516869120+Marx says German bishops set up working group on subject even before latest +Kasper Communion proposal
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523071706848833536+Marx says German bishops not the only one to back +Kasper, but “I see many people think differently"
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523071828374614017+Marx “puzzled” that people continue to talk about Communion outside larger family context
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523072049460547584+Marx says convinced that new moral language needed, not black and white, all or nothing, human life much more complex
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523073708127424512+Marx says homosexuality not condemned, homosexual acts unacceptable #Synod14
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523073910011883520+Marx cannot say long-term, caring same-sex relationship is valueless, we need nuances, distinctions
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523075501871861760+Marx says "exclusion is not in the language of the church” — divorced and civilly remarried are not 2nd-class Christians
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523075659246346241+Marx quotes JP2 and B16 on need for pastoral outreach to divorced and civilly remarried
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523076234197352448+Marx says working group may be organized to study importance of “graduality” to moral theology
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523076391689265152+Marx: we cannot say all or nothing, relationships are so varied, we must find what is good, there are many ways to holy marriage
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523076709982425089+Marx: how can we speak about civil unions or polygamy? how can we gradually guide people to the sacrament of marriage
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523078165980516352+Marx says “obviously” church can change practice on Communion for divorced and civilly remarried, doctrine develops
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523078491747938304+Marx says he told +Scola that doctrine is communicated pastorally, not static, can develop
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523079638810382336+Marx says going three steps forward, two back, still means going forward
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523080094009810945+Marx declines to predict whether #Synod14 will be approved
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523080301791424513+Marx says “let’s start from the idea that we can agree on” final report, would be surprised if consensus is impossible
twitter.com/CatholicNewsSvc/status/523082107070218241+Marx says press coverage influenced #Synod14 small group discussions, made them more responsible