Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[Tigg]

I saw a great signboard yesterday on a United Methodist Church: Be curious, not judgmental. My two cents is that we are really try to move past sin and adopt the more lenient, less judgmental secular values that you see widespread in our society or in the more modern Protestant Churches (mainstream to prosperity gospel; although I suspect we’ll also go pretty liberation theology on the social justice side soon) . There will be absolutely no moral pressure or guidance for these “sinful” newcomers (who will be small in number and short term anyway) who do come in the Church as is. There is hardly any guidance now in any meaningful sense. And I think we pretty much all know this. To me, this gesture is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. And they are coating it in of all things the Gospel. Actually makes me nauseous. I am not directing this at you; I really believe what I say - I am talking about this Synod.

It smacks of Theological Liberalism in which the *social *aspects of Christianity are valued far more than any doctrinal truth.

Our Lady, see our distress and pray for us.

 

[phil19034]

Gilliam, it’s not difficult to see. I knew a homosexual (not one myself BTW ). He came to our parish, regularly. He discussed his problem with me (he had the grace to know it was a problem - ‘valuing’, tosh!). It never crossed his mind to bring his current partner with him to church, just like an alcoholic doesn’t bring a bottle of plonk and swig it back during Mass.

The parish is - or should be - a Catholic space. Where we believe the same things and agree on the same Commandments. If we are imperfect and fail to keep them, that’s OK. But we do nothing that in any way adds up to an *endorsement *of sin. My friend was not endorsing sin when he came to church. His homosexuality was not a public fact. **But two homosexuals who come to church together ***are *****endorsing sin. A single visit, in ignorance, OK. We show a little understanding. But regular attendance, no.
We do as Christ did. Deal with public sinners on neutral ground, and let them visit our churches in a manner which makes clear they are not shoving their lifestyle in our faces.

Justin - I agree with you 99%

However, I think it’s ok for a homosexual couple to come to Church together IF they are being sincere. They should refrain from making their relationship public in the Church, to avoid to scandal. If their relationship is public, they should refrain from attending together or let people know that they are living chaste. Just like my great-grandmother did when she married a divorced man. She returned to the sacraments once she started living chaste, as brother & sister.

IF a publicly homosexual couple can live as brothers or sisters; then they can receive the Eucharist and Catholics would not be shunned, especially if they talk about Chastity to avoid scandal.

But the question is: how many gay couples can live as siblings (outside of perhaps the elderly)?

 

[Lormar]

As many of us are, Megan. I just hope that there is a mistranslation or a biased translation somewhere there. I will certainly look for one.

If you are upset, you can only imagine how much more upset I am. Tell me, was the Church wrong for two thousand years? Will the only sin be to mention sin at all now?

It has been my experience that to coddle people in their sins doesn’t result in many conversions. Sometimes, yes; I have seen it. Moreso, it only confirms them deeper in their sinful life since they are completely accepted without having to change one iota. Or have any remorse or shame.

Sorry, my very dear CAF family. This is about the end for me.

 

[Lormar]

Gilliam, it’s not difficult to see. I knew a homosexual (not one myself BTW ). He came to our parish, regularly. He discussed his problem with me (he had the grace to know it was a problem - ‘valuing’, tosh!). It never crossed his mind to bring his current partner with him to church, just like an alcoholic doesn’t bring a bottle of plonk and swig it back during Mass.

The parish is - or should be - a Catholic space. Where we believe the same things and agree on the same Commandments. If we are imperfect and fail to keep them, that’s OK. But we do nothing that in any way adds up to an *endorsement *of sin. My friend was not endorsing sin when he came to church. His homosexuality was not a public fact. But two homosexuals who come to church together ***are ***endorsing sin. A single visit, in ignorance, OK. We show a little understanding. But regular attendance, no.

We do as Christ did. Deal with public sinners on neutral ground, and let them visit our churches in a manner which makes clear they are not shoving their lifestyle in our faces.

Good to see you, Justin, and very well said.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Still relevant today
http://chirho.me/memes/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/10004047_292997527516663_800400262_n.jpg

But seriously this is exciting. It feels like new mission territory and new evangelization. Other Christian churches have simply changed their beliefs to say homosexual acts are ok and redefined marriage . The Catholic Church might actually be the first to teach the world what sexuality really is and how persons of the same sex can and should love each other.

Thanks - I need a laugh - I put the polygamy Synod at…maybe 2085? Am I too cautious?

 

[lakotak]

i have been following this thread and the following thought came to me regarding the confusion on gay Catholics’ orientation should be valued .

If this is an accurate interpretation of what is really intended then would it not lend to the idea that if the Holy Spirit is guiding the matters and preserves the Church from error and God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their homosexual practices then God has changed His mind, therefore, God is changeable, when He is supposed to not be? This is only a layman’s thought, but I find it disturbing to me.

Maybe someone can give some insight on this as this is certainly not an area of expertise for me.

Thanks,

 

[rightofcenter77]

Invited and welcomed are really becoming treacherous words if they imply we must deny our faith and affirm sin. Is that the direction they are going?

Unfortunately, when most people living a homosexual lifestyle say “welcome,” what they really mean is “accepted,” i.e., “We don’t feel welcome in the Church” really means, “Our lifestyle is not accepted by the Church.”

The Church is now trying to use the same language to reach different “pastoral” solutions. Unfortunately, the Church doesn’t yet realize that we aren’t even talking about the same things.

Peace
Sean

 

[Pronger1]

What does the Bible say?

2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”d

Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

 

[JackVk]

Watch the short film “The Third Way”. It is arguably the best piece of pastoral care for those with SSA. It has testimonies from several different homosexual people who tell their conversion stories.

For a personal anecdote, one of my closest friends used to be an active lesbian. She experienced a profound conversion while on a retreat with the Catholic campus center at The University of Kansas. She has left that lifestyle and lives as a faithful Catholic. Had she not been welcomed into the Church, she would most likely still be in that lifestyle.

I struggled with impurity for years when I was a teenager. I started going to Mass again my senior year of high school. But my point is, my conversion and repentance from those sins took time.

We can’t just bash people upside the head with a catechism and throw them out when they complain about the concussion . Conversion is a journey, a process, not a laundry list of doctrines to check off.

 

[phil19034]

Unfortunately, when most people living a homosexual lifestyle say “welcome,” what they really mean is “accepted,” i.e., “We don’t feel welcome in the Church” really means, “Our lifestyle is not accepted by the Church.”

The Church is now trying to use the same language to reach different “pastoral” solutions. Unfortunately, the Church doesn’t yet realize that we aren’t even talking about the same things.

Peace
Sean

I agree 100%. This is the problem. Well stated.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Maybe someone can give some insight on this as this is certainly not an area of expertise for me.

Thanks,

My friend, you sound like Thomas Aquinas compared to the Vatican Report that came out today. Hold onto your faith, honesty and humility. You’re right.

 

[Lormar]

i have been following this thread and the following thought came to me regarding the confusion on gay Catholics’ orientation should be valued .

**If this is an accurate interpretation of what is really intended then would it not lend to the idea that if the Holy Spirit is guiding the matters and preserves the Church from error and God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their homosexual practices then God has changed His mind, therefore, God is changeable, when He is supposed to not be? **This is only a layman’s thought, but I find it disturbing to me.

Maybe someone can give some insight on this as this is certainly not an area of expertise for me.

Thanks,

Thank you. This is what I was getting at.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Unfortunately, when most people living a homosexual lifestyle say “welcome,” what they really mean is “accepted,” i.e., “We don’t feel welcome in the Church” really means, “Our lifestyle is not accepted by the Church.”

The Church is now trying to use the same language to reach different “pastoral” solutions. Unfortunately, the Church doesn’t yet realize that we aren’t even talking about the same things.

Peace
Sean

Many in the Church do realize it.

 

[JimG]

Thanks - I need a laugh - I put the polygamy Synod at…maybe 2085? Am I too cautious?

The polygamy snyod?
Perhaps that synod with give us something like “polygamists have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community.” We will be welcoming.

 

[phil19034]

If you are upset, you can only imagine how much more upset I am. Tell me, was the Church wrong for two thousand years? Will the only sin be to mention sin at all now?

It has been my experience that to coddle people in their sins doesn’t result in many conversions. Sometimes, yes; I have seen it. Moreso, it only confirms them deeper in their sinful life since they are completely accepted without having to change one iota. Or have any remorse or shame.

Sorry, my very dear CAF family. This is about the end for me.

When all of this is over, everything will be clear. However, I fear that more people will be confused or lead to error due to the media coverage.

Just like birth control… many bishops were in favor of allowing it for pastoral reasons. But when push can to shove, the Pope said no.

I have faith that the Holy Spirit will not allow the Pope to teach a falsehood. The key will be learning what the Church truly teaches regarding this.

However, I must say the following: I was really hoping (and still am hoping) that the synod will eventually lead to much better Catechesis.

The Church needs to realize that today, most parents are not equipped to catechize their children. We need better catechesis at our parishes for children AND adults.

Please have Faith that he Church will not error in regards to what it officially teaches. But understand that some people (bishops included) are flawed.

 

[Beautiful]

The Islamic State (IS) group renewed propagandist threats against Rome and the Vatican in a new issue of its official magazine, which had a Photoshopped picture of a jihadi flag flying atop the Holy See on the front cover.

ibtimes.co.uk/isis-magazine-dabiq-threatens-rome-crusaders-flying-islamic-state-flag-vatican-front-cover-1469712
From International Business Times

Islamics believe that time is on their side and that westerners will eventually lead themselves to their own destruction.

While Islamic State horrifies the world by killing Christians, homosexuals, infidels, raping women, brutalizing children, women and men, stealing, burning, holding hostages, beheading, extorting…

Our Synod Fathers announce this in support of family life?

 

[Justin_Swanton]

i have been following this thread and the following thought came to me regarding the confusion on gay Catholics’ orientation should be valued .

If this is an accurate interpretation of what is really intended then would it not lend to the idea that if the Holy Spirit is guiding the matters and preserves the Church from error and God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their homosexual practices then God has changed His mind, therefore, God is changeable, when He is supposed to not be? This is only a layman’s thought, but I find it disturbing to me.

Maybe someone can give some insight on this as this is certainly not an area of expertise for me.

Thanks,

lakotak, I empathize. What is happening here is a rather unsettling statement by churchmen that is not a definitive pronouncement by the Church herself. Only the latter has the guidance of the Holy Spirit such as to make it unquestionable.

The ordinary pronouncements of churchmen should be heeded and respected, since the hierarchy has the Godgiven vocation of teaching and upholding the Faith. ‘Heeded and respected’ means just that - we must as Catholics accept it, even if we don’t like it, unless, and only unless, it clearly undermines the Faith it is supposed to promote.

This document, well…let’s see how long it lasts in the hands of a Muller or a Burke. Certainly Cardinals like them will not be able to remain silent about it. I don’t think, on reflection, that it will last very long in its present form. If it does, batten down the hatches, for Arius is in town, and he has the whole weight of secular society behind him!

 

[gilliam]

The Church needs to realize that today, most parents are not equipped to catechize their children. We need better catechesis at our parishes for children AND adults.

In the US anyway, most of those who actually read the current CCC don’t understand it. It was originally meant as a guide for bishops and not written for those not educated in theology. Because of that there has been a lot of misunderstandings.

 

[JackVk]

i have been following this thread and the following thought came to me regarding the confusion on gay Catholics’ orientation should be valued .

If this is an accurate interpretation of what is really intended then would it not lend to the idea that if the Holy Spirit is guiding the matters and preserves the Church from error and God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their homosexual practices then God has changed His mind, therefore, God is changeable, when He is supposed to not be? This is only a layman’s thought, but I find it disturbing to me.

Maybe someone can give some insight on this as this is certainly not an area of expertise for me.

Thanks,

What they are saying is that people are not defined by their sexual orientation (or any of their sins, for that matter). That is just putting people into categories, which denigrates their dignity as being made in God’s image and likeness.

Honestly, nothing has changed or will change doctrinally. I suppose you can argue that the Synod is playing with fire in its approach. But the whole point of the Synod is, shall we say, “market research”. Just saying, “accept these or rot in Hell” is a perfect example of what is called Marketing Myopia. We as a Church cannot rely on past glories or romantic idealism.

 

[JackVk]

ibtimes.co.uk/isis-magazine-dabiq-threatens-rome-crusaders-flying-islamic-state-flag-vatican-front-cover-1469712
From International Business Times

Islamics believe that time is on their side and that westerners will eventually lead themselves to their own destruction.

While Islamic State horrifies the world by killing Christians, homosexuals, infidels, raping women, brutalizing children, women and men, stealing, burning, holding hostage, beheading, extorting…

Our Synod Fathers announce this in support of family life?

…What? This post is a non sequitur if I ever saw one.