Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[Yeoman]

On the statement about “divorced people having a difficult time”, at least in my parish I just don’t find that’s the case, and I can’t recall it ever having been.

Indeed, I’d somewhat be concerned that the general assumption that a person can get an annulment easily to be the slightly bigger concern. But to find Catholics who are on a second marriage one way or another isn’t terribly difficult.

 

[Tigg]

Are you prepared to take the position that the love in a gay couple is akin to the love Christ has for us? Or the love we have for one another? Methinks no.

And also, NO ONE here is condemning anyone as long as I’ve been following these threads. The sin is already condemned by God and His Church. We are merely understanding that fact same as any other sin condemned by Him similarly. No one here has cast judgment or hate or vitriol, so I will keep calling that mistake out as I see it because there is a huge difference.

A commendable post!

 

[AnnArbor]

On the statement about “divorced people having a difficult time”, at least in my parish I just don’t find that’s the case, and I can’t recall it ever having been.

Indeed, I’d somewhat be concerned that the general assumption that a person can get an annulment easily to be the slightly bigger concern. But to find Catholics who are on a second marriage one way or another isn’t terribly difficult.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been divorced? I didn’t think divorced people had a difficult time in the Church either – until I was one of them.

 

[Amo_a_Jesus]

I believe, and maybe I’m wrong that Pope Francis is doing something very smart, you know what is the best tool, the gay lobby use for their propaganda? is the “hate” that us the believers sometimes give them, How we Christians, show the love of Jesus? did we put a gun in the head of someone and ask them believe in Christ or died? how did Jesus treat Mary Magdalene? so I believe Francis is trying to do is, Love them, and when they experimented the Love Of Jesus, who knows they may realize they are wrong and change, I used to do a lot of bad things, was only when i really let Jesus get in my life, that the real change start, and I’m still a sinner, but everyday i try to glorify Jesus in my life with my actions, So I think Francis is trying to defeat sin with Love. Hey guys this is a challenge for our faith, We are Catholics, there is no other place to go, We have Christ in the Eucharist, we have our Blessed Mother, we have the Apostolic Church… where did you want to go?

 

[Teelynn]

Thank you for the two responses. I first edited my comment and then deleted it because I honestly don’t know what to think and don’t just want to rant in vain.

I was hoping that the church was finally leaving the decades of confusion and bad catechesis behind, but it seems we will go even deeper now.

I agree…it seems that NOWHERE in this is there any mention of sin or disorder. I agree of course to welcome and love these people but at the same time we cannot condone sin. NOWHERE in this do I see ‘admonish the sinner’…even the concept of ‘sin’ seems to be OUT. I am beyond disturbed by this.:bighanky:

 

[Tigg]

SMGS127;12409176:

Sex is only a small part of same-sex relationships, and it is indeed non-existent in many. The main “defining feature” of a same-sex relationship is their commitment and love to one another through sickness and other hard times. One does not need to have sex to achieve this, and indeed, these goods are being recognized by the Church. The Church is not supporting non-marital sexual acts but merely pointing out that for every evil conservatives feel the need to point out, there are hundreds of goods that are neglected in the rush to remove the speck from others’ eyes.

What your describing is some rare form of extreme plutonic friendship if sex isn’t existent at all. Thats not what a same sex relationship is and your purposely equating the two to muddy the issue. I don’t see the relevance of your super hypothetical and confusing non sexual same sex relationship situation. Why would you even mention same sex if it’s non sexual. I don’t say that two little kids playing in the park are in a same sex relationship with non existent sex, they are just normal friends.

Obviously boar2, you did not read the thread entitled “When does sin begin in same sex physical intimacy?” or words to that effect. Be very careful here because we are entering a new world, not one previously explored, and you must put on a life jacket to keep your head above the waters of rationalization. Perhaps, if we’re lucky, the synod will address this and clarify our confusion.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Ex Morrisey regards today’s press briefing as a ‘walk back’

VATICAN CITY – The Vatican press briefing today featured a big effort from the Synod to walk back some of the analysis that took place on the release of the Relatio yesterday. Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier of Durban, South Africa expressed dismay over the release of the document, the phrasing used within it, and especially the media reaction to it. At one point during the briefing, the prelate lamented that the Catholic Church is now in a potentially “irredeemable” position. When the final document comes out and it doesn’t match the media’s take on the draft, it will look like “damage control” rather than a positive step forward in bolstering family life.

The briefing today appeared to be an effort at damage control now. The spokesmen for the Vatican humorously expressed surprise at the nearly full house at La Sala Stampa for the daily briefing. For most of the synod, the turnout had been about half or perhaps two-thirds at best of what was seen today. The three spokesmen each made it a point to stress that the relatio released yesterday was a “working document,” and Cardinal Napier suggested that the publication itself came as a surprise. Father Lombardi later clarified that synods usually publish relatio when they are crafted, so this was not necessarily irregular.

The reaction of the two visiting cardinals for this briefing appeared to have been following the coverage. Both Cardinal Napier and Cardinal Fernando Filoni made reference to the press coverage. Napier in particular stressed that the media understanding of the relatio was significantly distanced from the discussion that had taken place in the Synod itself. He specified paragraph #24 as an example, which read that the synod had been in “agreement” on pastoral needs, when no agreement had been reached or even request as of yet. Napier noted that the topics are of great interest and subject to misunderstanding on their own, but that people appear to be projecting their own agendas on the relatio and its language. In particular, the paragraphs on homosexuality did not reflect “at all” the tenor of the conversation in the small group session today, according to Napier. When asked if he was “disowning” the document, Napier said they were “working” on the document — and that each passage will be up for a vote for inclusion or change.

The document itself reflects some of what was discussed in the Synod, especially the need to use better language to instruct on Church teachings. But that doesn’t mean the Church will change its teachings. Napier further clarified that much of the relatio would probably remain, but with a much better explanation of context for the statements. Napier dismissed calls to “rescind” the relatio, but that the document has to be changed to reflect the actual consensus of the synod, and not just the remarks of one or two participants. In that statement, Napier specified the paragraphs dealing with homosexuality. The media’s analysis of it and the Synod, however, was rejected by Napier.

The small groups have begun their work on the topics under discussion. The Vatican said they would have publish the final report from these committees on Thursday, and the general synod would then begin work on the official version of the relatio, probably voting on the final draft by Saturday. Interestingly, and unlike other briefings, the panel did not stick around to answer any post-briefing questions or interviews (after the usual briefing Q&A). The walkback was concluded by a determined retreat.

hotair.com/archives/2014/10/14/synod-diary-projection-walkback-and-the-media/

 

[Tigg]

It needs to be mentioned that the “goods”, the giftedness and talents of gays as stated in this report are nothing new. The Pastoral Letter written in 1986 already covered this.

16 ** The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation.**

Every one living on the face of the earth has personal problems and difficulties, but challenges to growth, strengths, talents and gifts as well. Today, the Church provides a badly needed context for the care of the human person when she refuses to consider the person as a “heterosexual” or a “homosexual” and insists that every person has a fundamental Identity: the creature of God, and by grace, his child and heir to eternal life.

So just exactly how does this work? If the 2015 synodal [and final] document contradicts a *previous *magisterial document, how is it executed? Seems to me the Vatican has already stated that the human person is not the totality of their sexual orientation. But now it is being suggested that couples must be welcomed into the Church (with the identification of their being gay.) Sounds a bit perplexing when it has already been stated that we are to acknowledge each other with a fundamental identity only and because we are all children of God.

 

[pepipop]

It needs to be mentioned that the “goods”, the giftedness and talents of gays as stated in this report are nothing new. The Pastoral Letter written in 1986 already covered this.

So just exactly how does this work? If the 2015 synodal [and final] document contradicts a *previous *magisterial document, how is it executed? Seems to me the Vatican has already stated that the human person is not the totality of their sexual orientation. But now it is being suggested that couples must be welcomed into the Church (with the identification of their being gay.) Sounds a bit perplexing when it has already been stated that we are to acknowledge each other with a fundamental identity only and because we are all children of God.

Just of the top of my head, the section from the pastoral letter in 1986, seems to be in keeping with yesterday’s PR disaster. Things have moved on since 1986, in that I’d say there were few and far between gay couples in fully recognised, accepted partnerships especially with children, now it is their legal right to be so.

Theologically, nothing has changed. However as recognition of the homosexual partnership/marriage is now widely accepted worldwide, it has become more prevalent and obvious to all, that SS couples are living together whilst in the '80’s such partnerships would not have been so obvious - if at all.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

This judgment thing is getting very tiresome. From the very beginning the bishops issued a letter of exhortation to respect their dignity and human person. And even before the letter, authentic Christians understood the meaning of charity and how serious a sin it would be to breach it.

I challenge this accusation because I have been in prayer ministry to support gays in my own parish. Through personal sharing a few have actually admitted much of the pain comes from their own cognitive dissonance. The conflict and suffering encountered when finally looking deep within the soul and coming to acknowledge sin is a very difficult and long process. God’s voice within is relentless and He never stops trying to draw them to His own heart.

You’re right that the judgement thing is very tiresome. We all seem to have great difficulty with it and it’s exhausting trying not to commit this very alluring sin. It’s probably one the most pervasive and damaging sins of our Church and one that I am glad that Pope Francis is trying to address. God Bless that man.

Anyway, we all have encounters with people who live outside our own perceptions of normal. Do these experiences really enable us to walk the talk? Do we really understand what they think, how they live, what they feel in their hearts? I have an background in anthropology & I currently work with indigent people who are in trouble with the law. I’ve studied & I work with people who are so very different than me. I’m often, even now, surprised by what these people go through day to day. Just when I think I understand them, someone comes along & trips me up. That is why I am glad that Pope Francis & the members of the panel have taken time to ask people to describe specifically how they’ve been discriminated against by the Church. Most of us know fellow Catholics who are not interested in accepting gay people into their homes, into their families, into their places of work or into their churches. And they are not shy about letting people know where they stand. It’s so pervasive that Catholic teens frequently feel the need to hide their true sexual identities from their own parents. We have members in this forum discussing whether or not it’s right to attend their gay children’s weddings. Really. When our faith can turn parents against their own children, when our faith can make people feel unaccepted by their families, that’s a glaring sign that we’ve strayed from the path. We need a clear message from the Vatican to stop being judgmental, to stay out of people’s bedrooms, to love and accept our gay brothers and sisters, and to join our families with theirs in service of the Lord.

I applaud you for taking the time to befriend gay members of your parish. I’m sure your fellowship is valued and appreciated.

 

[Yeoman]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever been divorced? I didn’t think divorced people had a difficult time in the Church either – until I was one of them.

No, I haven’t been. Of course I also don’t know your situation, and what the difficulties you may have experienced may have been.

 

[Yeoman]

I believe, and maybe I’m wrong that Pope Francis is doing something very smart, you know what is the best tool, the gay lobby use for their propaganda? is the “hate” that us the believers sometimes give them, How we Christians, show the love of Jesus? did we put a gun in the head of someone and ask them believe in Christ or died? how did Jesus treat Mary Magdalene? so I believe Francis is trying to do is, Love them, and when they experimented the Love Of Jesus, who knows they may realize they are wrong and change, I used to do a lot of bad things, was only when i really let Jesus get in my life, that the real change start, and I’m still a sinner, but everyday i try to glorify Jesus in my life with my actions, So I think Francis is trying to defeat sin with Love. Hey guys this is a challenge for our faith, We are Catholics, there is no other place to go, We have Christ in the Eucharist, we have our Blessed Mother, we have the Apostolic Church… where did you want to go?

There is indeed no place else to go, and those upset with the Pope’s pronouncements (and I’m frankly less than thrilled with Pope Francis, and I’m not in the “traditionalist” camp) have to keep that in mind. People who ponder bolting are not doing the Catholic thing.

I suspect your view on what Pope Francis is doing is correct, and in some ways he’s merely emphasizing Christ’s love over other messages, without changing the overall message.

 

[Yeoman]

I agree…it seems that NOWHERE in this is there any mention of sin or disorder. I agree of course to welcome and love these people but at the same time we cannot condone sin. NOWHERE in this do I see ‘admonish the sinner’…even the concept of ‘sin’ seems to be OUT. I am beyond disturbed by this.:bighanky:

My concern is somewhat similar. It seems to me that in the Western world we’re just pulling out of 40 years of confusion, and now we’re risking confusing people again. I think we grew weaker during the confusion, not stronger. And now that the church is so vibrant, and conservative, in Africa, I fear this will do us damage there.

We do need to love all, but we need to avoid sending a confused message. Frankly, Pope Francis has sent out a lot of confused messages. All along, as we always want to back the Pope, we’ve been in the “what he really means” atmosphere, but we can only do that so long before confusion really sets in.

We cannot be disloyal, but this is concerning.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

On the statement about “divorced people having a difficult time”, at least in my parish I just don’t find that’s the case, and I can’t recall it ever having been.

Indeed, I’d somewhat be concerned that the general assumption that a person can get an annulment easily to be the slightly bigger concern. But to find Catholics who are on a second marriage one way or another isn’t terribly difficult.

Most divorced and remarried Catholics that I know still go to church and take communion even though their marriages have not been annulled. Maybe we don’t see the discrimination because people aren’t open about who they are and what they are doing. If I was gay, married and having all kinds of gay sex, but I wasn’t open about it, would anyone stop me from going to communion? Would there be open confrontation or discrimination if I never revealed myself as gay or divorced to my parish? Don’t ask, don’t tell saves a lot of people from “difficult times.”

 

[Yeoman]

Ex Morrisey regards today’s press briefing as a ‘walk back’

That there’s enough looseness in the release of these items that a “walk back” is required is not a good thing in and of itself and we’ve been seeing a fair number of walk backs recently.

 

[AnnArbor]

No, I haven’t been. Of course I also don’t know your situation, and what the difficulties you may have experienced may have been.

When I was a very active, and married, parishioner, I would have said that those who were divorced in our parish did not experience any difficulties. However, when I got divorced, I experienced ostracism, comments that I should no longer be a catechist, reader or EMHC, and a knee-jerk response from my pastor – who did not even bother to ask why I’d had to leave my ex.

It was very disheartening and disappointing. I’ve survived it, and am still active in my (new) parish, but I wouldn’t assume that the divorce in our midst are not experiencing any difficulty.

 

[Robert_Bay]

Ex Morrisey regards today’s press briefing as a ‘walk back’

hotair.com/archives/2014/10/14/synod-diary-projection-walkback-and-the-media/

I have posted a link to the press conference in the Synod sticky at the top of the forum.

 

[Tigg]

It needs to be mentioned that the “goods”, the giftedness and talents of gays as stated in this report are nothing new. The Pastoral Letter written in 1986 already covered this.

16 The human person, made in the image and likeness of God, can hardly be adequately described by a reductionist reference to his or her sexual orientation.

**ah ha! ** I just watched a filmed portion of the interview yesterday in the press room and this particular question was asked by someone covering the event. The query was poised regarding #50 in the format, “are we to value gays’ gifts and talents because they are innate and emanate from their sexual orientation?” The question was basically not answered at all by AB Bruno Forte, he only reiterated the need to respect them, although he did make the remark that it was difficult to answer such an ontological question.

 

[phil19034]

If I understand Catholic belief correctly, the Cardinals were led by Christ to choose Pope Francis to be the successor to St Peter at this time in Church history, just as St JP and Benedict XV1 were in their times. We’ll have to see what Francis is thinking.

Note: the Catholic Faith does not believe that The Holy Spirit selects the Pope. The Church teaches that Christ and the Holy Spirit will protect the Church from officially teaching errors regarding Faith and Morals.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, a bit different, but Cardinal Burke upheld the decision to not offer communion to politicians who defended and supported abortion. That’s kind of a very public rebuke for a sinner I suppose.

A priest or bishop may withhold communion when there would be scandal otherwise. Technically one can’t judge another one’s soul or state of grace.