Dress Like a Man

[Denise1957]

The whole point of the three references I gave you is that a contrite heart is the sacrifice pleasing to God, not outward appearances. It isn’t about showing who we are but being honest and humble about who we are.

Again, it is a matter of private opinion. Please don’t judge others if they see it differently from you and dress plainly. There is no way to read into a person’s heart based on how they are dressed. The most honest guy I’ve ever known dresses simply, and the biggest con man I’ve ever met wears a suit.

My spiritual values (monastic) promote simplicity, humility, poverty an detachment from worldly things. It is an ancient tradition of the Church to which I and many others are deeply attached. If formal attire means as much to you as simplicity does to me, I promise to do my best to avoid judging you because of it, and only ask the same respect for my values in return

The beauty of Catholicism is that it is a big tent that accommodates many spiritual movements such as mendicants, monastics, charismatics, lay movements, teaching and hospital orders and I could go on. We need to be far more tolerant of our differences, in fact be far more supportive of the different but authentic spiritualities that should in fact unite us around the same table.

How do you define…“who we are?” What does that mean to you? What does it have to do with Mass?

 

[Regina7]

My question has yet to be answered.

Have you read the OP and all the threads? Because your question HAS been answered. If you disagree or have something new to contribute, please do. But I for one do not plan on reiterating everything we’ve already discussed.

 

[exnihilo]

No, not really. It was the standard for BUSINESS dress – and
that is quickly vanishing too.

My dad had a neighbor who mowed his lawn in a suit.

I’m curious – would morning dress be appropriate for a morning Mass and a tuxedo (black tie) for an evening Mass?

Obviously not. There are rules for when this should be worn. The rules were invented at some point in time. The rules can change. But everyone knows the basic rules for how to look nice in our current culture. Shorts and t-shirts are not looking nice and everyone knows that. I know that because I still haven’t seen anyone show up for a wedding, funeral, or job interview in such attire. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened. Only that it must be so rare that I’ve not run across it.

Maybe police should all wear shorts and t-shirts. Maybe judges too. How about your doctor dressed like that? Or your nurse? People wear uniforms. Most people like that fact that these folks wear uniforms because it says something. It says they care enough about their work to accept the standard attire. It provides order to society. The no rules people probably wouldn’t like a society made up of people who took the same attitude to dressing they do, or at least in regards to church. If your surgeon showed up for surgery so casually dressed you’d probably have serious concern.

Surely we can cut a plumber or auto mechanic some slack when he stops in at the 7 am weekday Mass on his way to work, in his work clothes, and say he is “dressed like a man”? Or even on Sunday if he’s forced to work on Sunday to support his family?

This tendency of judging by appearances that some folks have give me the creeps…

Most people aren’t plumbers and mechanics. And it is often possible to change. To further emphasize a point I made earlier. My grandmother was a poor farm girl. She had a dress for when she was doing farm chores. She had a dress for Sunday. They thought it worthwhile to distinguish the sacred from the ordinary. This is not a bad impulse at all. When nothing is sacred everything is profane.

As I said if you really want to be judged show up at a wedding with flip flops, a t-shirt and shorts. At least where I live even if you were in a church you’d be judged more on the fact it is a wedding than in a church. Why put the blame of bad and inappropriate dress on the people who have eyes rather than on the people who so chose to dress?

 

[OraLabora]

How do you define…“who we are?” What does that mean to you, and why is important to show this at Mass?

How? That’s for each of us to work out with God. Part of the inner conversion promise I made as Oblate (and which is part of a monk’s vow) is to peel away the layers of false self to reveal the authentic self to God. And to ourselves, because our false self often obscures our true identities even to ourselves. This is what the twelve degrees of humility in the Rule of Saint Benedict are about.

Why is it important to be myself at Mass? Because it is implied in my Oblate promise. There are other ways to rise above our earthly selves as you state it, besides clothes. We have different talents and abilities. I always loved Gregorian chant for instance, and never dreamt that I would some day have enough ability to sing in a schola and chant along with the monks. Well about 13 years ago something clicked and I learned it. It is my “burnt offering” to God, as it were, my prayer rising to God as incense, to paraphrase Ps. 140(141) (incidentally our men’s schola does have required attire: a black dress shirt and black trousers, so that there is no individual that stands out…chant is all about being a single united voice). Beautifully done chant is authentic prayer and authentic worship, we invest of ourselves in it, as does any other type of liturgical choir that takes its role seriously.

I will then ask you, why so much focus on what others wear to Mass?

 

[OraLabora]

My dad had a neighbor who mowed his lawn in a suit.

Obviously not. There are rules for when this should be worn. The rules were invented at some point in time. The rules can change. But everyone knows the basic rules for how to look nice in our current culture. Shorts and t-shirts are not looking nice and everyone knows that. I know that because I still haven’t seen anyone show up for a wedding, funeral, or job interview in such attire. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened. Only that it must be so rare that I’ve not run across it.

Maybe police should all wear shorts and t-shirts. Maybe judges too. How about your doctor dressed like that? Or your nurse? People wear uniforms. Most people like that fact that these folks wear uniforms because it says something. It says they care enough about their work to accept the standard attire. It provides order to society. The no rules people probably wouldn’t like a society made up of people who took the same attitude to dressing they do, or at least in regards to church. If your surgeon showed up for surgery so casually dressed you’d probably have serious concern.

Most people aren’t plumbers and mechanics. And it is often possible to change. To further emphasize a point I made earlier. My grandmother was a poor farm girl. She had a dress for when she was doing farm chores. She had a dress for Sunday. They thought it worthwhile to distinguish the sacred from the ordinary. This is not a bad impulse at all. When nothing is sacred everything is profane.

As I said if you really want to be judged show up at a wedding with flip flops, a t-shirt and shorts. At least where I live even if you were in a church you’d be judged more on the fact it is a wedding than in a church. Why put the blame of bad and inappropriate dress on the people who have eyes rather than on the people who so chose to dress?

Where have I suggested that flip flops and a t-shirt are appropriate at Mass? You are creating a straw man.

I mentioned humble, simple, clean and modest attire.

 

[Denise1957]

How? That’s for each of us to work out with God. Part of the inner conversion promise I made as Oblate (and which is part of a monk’s vow) is to peel away the layers of false self to reveal the authentic self to God. And to ourselves, because our false self often obscures our true identities even to ourselves. This is what the twelve degrees of humility in the Rule of Saint Benedict are about.

I will then ask you, why so much focus on what others wear to Mass?

So Mass, then, is about “us” really, and showing God who we really are. Is this what St. Benedict taught?

Why do you believe that I focus at all on what others wear to Mass?

 

[Draper]

Obviously not. There are rules for when this should be worn. The rules were invented at some point in time. The rules can change. But everyone knows the basic rules for how to look nice in our current culture. Shorts and t-shirts are not looking nice and everyone knows that. I know that because I still haven’t seen anyone show up for a wedding, funeral, or job interview in such attire. I’m not saying it hasn’t happened. Only that it must be so rare that I’ve not run across it.

Nothing “obvious” about it. For those who suggest we should “look our best”, why is a business suit acceptable and morning dress or white/black tie not acceptable?

Maybe police should all wear shorts and t-shirts. Maybe judges too. How about your doctor dressed like that? Or your nurse? People wear uniforms. Most people like that fact that these folks wear uniforms because it says something. It says they care enough about their work to accept the standard attire. It provides order to society. The no rules people probably wouldn’t like a society made up of people who took the same attitude to dressing they do, or at least in regards to church. If your surgeon showed up for surgery so casually dressed you’d probably have serious concern.

Cops DO wear shorts around here – particularly those wearing bicycles. But what does that have to do with dressing appropriately for Mass? The tortured examples of: meeting the President of the US, a job interview or a wedding simply don;t apply to the Mass.

Most people aren’t plumbers and mechanics. And it is often possible to change. To further emphasize a point I made earlier. My grandmother was a poor farm girl. She had a dress for when she was doing farm chores. She had a dress for Sunday. They thought it worthwhile to distinguish the sacred from the ordinary. This is not a bad impulse at all. When nothing is sacred everything is profane.

It’s also not necessarily a good (and certainly not a required) “impulse” either.

As I said if you really want to be judged show up at a wedding with flip flops, a t-shirt and shorts. At least where I live even if you were in a church you’d be judged more on the fact it is a wedding than in a church. Why put the blame of bad and inappropriate dress on the people who have eyes rather than on the people who so chose to dress?

It’s not up to you to define what’s appropriate and what’s inappropriate.

 

[Regina7]

Where have I suggested that flip flops and a t-shirt are appropriate at Mass? You are creating a straw man.

I mentioned humble, simple, clean and modest attire.

To play devil’s advocate, what if I think that flip flops and T-shirts are humble, simple, clean and modest? What if I think a low-revealing top and short skirt also qualify?

Perhaps because we all have such differing opinions, that is why it’s simply easier to say things like “no jeans. Tshirts” etc. if left up to everyone’s interpretation, we are left with a wife variety, including things that may be offensive, especially at mass.

 

[Draper]

…

 

[OraLabora]

So Mass, then, is about “us” really, and showing God who we really are. Is this what St. Benedict taught?

Come on you are being disingenuous here. I never made that affirmation. I said that we should have contrite heart and be humble when we worship. Didn’t the publican present himself to God as he really was???

Sheesh.

I didn’t say that what others wear at Mass is your sole focus, but clearly it is important to you. So Let me rephrase my question: why is it so important to you what others wear at Mass?

 

[OraLabora]

To play devil’s advocate, what if I think that flip flops and T-shirts are humble, simple, clean and modest? What if I think a low-revealing top and short skirt also qualify?

Perhaps because we all have such differing opinions, that is why it’s simply easier to say things like “no jeans. Tshirts” etc. if left up to everyone’s interpretation, we are left with a wife variety, including things that may be offensive, especially at mass.

Well I try not to care about what others wear at Mass. My standard is just that, mine. I wouldn’t wear flip flops and a t-shirt at Mass, but that’s my decision. However I’ve seen micro mini skirts at Mass, as well as other revealing clothing. At holy sites in Italy, people so dressed are asked to cover up or they are denied entry. It’s up to those responsible for the site to enforce a standard, not I.

 

[Denise1957]

Come on you are being disingenuous here. I never made that affirmation. I said that we should have contrite heart and be humble when we worship. Didn’t the publican present himself to God as he really was???

Sheesh.

I didn’t say that what others wear at Mass is your sole focus, but clearly it is important to you. So Let me rephrase my question: why is it so important to you what others wear at Mass?

You said earlier that we are to be honest and humble about who we really are at Mass. This insinuates, IMO, that the Mass should be about us, and who we are. Is this what St. Benedict taught that should be our attitude at Mass? Did St. Benedict also teach that casual clothing is to be worn at Mass?

If you look at the OP, it does a good job of stating why we should not wear casual clothing to Mass. We are at Mass to give all honor, glory, devotion, thanksgiving, and reverence to Him. I do not judge what others wear to Mass, except on the rare occasion when a woman wears clothing which is highly inappropriate in an immodest manner. Thankfully, this doesn’t happen very often.

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I guess what I find so amusing is that some people so desperately cling to a growingly archaic model of dress (suit and tie) as being some sort of uber-appropriate uniform to wear while attending the Mass.

It would make a lot more sense to talk in terms of humility, modesty, simplicity and frugality when trying to suggest what one should wear while attending Mass.

A man can still be humble, modest, and frugal while wearing a suit to Mass. A man can go to KMart and buy an inexpensive dress shirt and tie, as well as slacks and jacket. One can dress appropriately and not have to spend a lot of money.

Just like someone wouldn’t wear their good clothes to do yard work, one should dress appropriately for Mass.

 

[exnihilo]

Where have I suggested that flip flops and a t-shirt are appropriate at Mass? You are creating a straw man.

I mentioned humble, simple, clean and modest attire.

My comment was in response to yours about judgment. Pick jeans or something else not appropriate for a wedding and wear that and see how you are judged. Try going to a nightclub dressed like some do to church. I don’t actually recommend that. I just use that to point out you’ll be judged by how you dressed in lost of places and environments.

Nothing “obvious” about it. For those who suggest we should “look our best”, why is a business suit acceptable and morning dress or white/black tie not acceptable?

Yes, it is obvious. We have conventions in our society. We all know them or can know them if we chose to make an effort. The very words we use rely on convention to have any meaning. The lines might not always be bright but the rules do exist and are able to be a basic guide.

Cops DO wear shorts around here – particularly those wearing bicycles. But what does that have to do with dressing appropriately for Mass? The tortured examples of: meeting the President of the US, a job interview or a wedding simply don;t apply to the Mass.

They do where I live as well. But that is the exception. But it is still a uniform and they are easily identified thus you can say cops do wear shorts around you. If they just dressed as they pleased you’d not be able to know there were bicycle cops, at least by observation.

The point was about the only place where people think they can dress however they want, with no regard to what is appropriate is at church because they presume upon God.

It’s also not necessarily a good (and certainly not a required) “impulse” either.

No, it is a good impulse. Giving your best to God is a good thing. Giving your worst is a bad thing. Being indifferent is bad as well.

It’s not up to you to define what’s appropriate and what’s inappropriate.

Is it up to you? Who is it up to? Your very statement that it is not up to me to decide what is appropriate assumes you know what is appropriate and that this standard is above me. But that means there is a standard.

 

[exnihilo]

However I’ve seen micro mini skirts at Mass, as well as other revealing clothing.

I’ve noticed those are the same people complaining how cold they are. One solution would be to put on more clothes. But they never seem to want to do that. I guess they don’t wear clothes for comfort. So I wonder why they wear such clothes? The only other reason I can figure out is to attract attention. Maybe they want to get people to look at them. But they are the same people who complain when they are stared at. I think folks like that are pretty selfish.

 

[OraLabora]

You said earlier that we are to be honest and humble about who we really are at Mass. This insinuates, IMO, that the Mass should be about us, and who we are. Is this what St. Benedict taught that should be our attitude at Mass? Did St. Benedict also teach that casual clothing is to be worn at Mass?.

He certainly taught that humble and simple clothing are to be worn at Mass. Read the chapters on the the monastic habit.

What I said in no way insinuates that the Mass is all about us. But unless I’ve misunderstood my faith all along th Mass and its liturgy is a bidirectional relation with God.

I am the bread of life…so that one may eat of it and not die

.

It is the most supreme Gift that God gave us, that we receive at Mass. He gave it out of love for us. How then can the Mass and the graces we receive from it. not at least be partly for us? In return we worship Him, and He says the most precious sacrifice we can give Him in worship is a contrite heart. If wearing a business suit is the way a man expresses his contrite heart, then he should wear one.

If it is wearing a worn out habit and in bare feet, then he should follow his charism. Again, it is a personal encounter and choice that should follow the dictates of his well-formed conscience.

 

[Lormar]

In my parish, there is a family that comes to Mass every week - parents and their three teenage daughters. Last summer, one of the daughters (she’s about 15/16) wore to Mass every week cut-off shorts as short as they can possibly be and a skin tight tank top.

Something ought to have been said to either her mother or her father in my opinion, but nothing ever was. And I can’t help but wonder where either her mother’s or her father’s head is at to let their daughter walk out of the house and attend Mass “dressed” like that.

Please. No “well maybe it’s all they can afford.” No. This family does quite well.

Another scenario: there is an older couple (in their sixties) who attend Mass weekly. Once they sat in front of us. He has leg problems so he doesn’t kneel. He perches himself at the end of the pew. When he does this, his pants go down in the back. I will leave it to your imagination what is revealed when he does that.

The good news: I am noticing more and more people, especially women, dressing up rather than down for Mass. This is heartening to see!

 

[Lormar]

More people praying the Rosary before Mass as well.

 

[Denise1957]

He certainly taught that humble and simple clothing are to be worn at Mass. Read the chapters on the the monastic habit.

What I said in no way insinuates that the Mass is all about us. But unless I’ve misunderstood my faith all along th Mass and its liturgy is a bidirectional relation with God.

.It is the most supreme Gift that God gave us, that we receive at Mass. He gave it out of love for us. How then can the Mass and the graces we receive from it. not at least be partly for us? In return we worship Him, and He says the most precious sacrifice we can give Him in worship is a contrite heart. If wearing a business suit is the way a man expresses his contrite heart, then he should wear one.

If it is wearing a worn out habit and in bare feet, then he should follow his charism. Again, it is a personal encounter and choice that should follow the dictates of his well-formed conscience.

Modest clothing which is not too casual so as to be considered everyday dress can be quite simple. We are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Doesn’t this imply that it’s not the same as the other days of the week? A contrite heart is a good and important thing at Mass, but it’s not the most important thing, because it insinuates, again, that the Mass is all about us. It isn’t. I’m thinking of the Last Four Ends of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is what I was taught, which is a more traditional view.

Regarding the monastic habit, well, the thread is about laypersons; men in particular, and how they need dress like men. Evidently, St. Benedict didn’t say much or anything about the clothing of laypersons at Mass. That’s okay.

 

[Xantippe]

Maybe police should all wear shorts and t-shirts.

**Bike police often wear shorts. There’s a photo here at the top:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_bicycle**

Maybe judges too. How about your doctor dressed like that? Or your nurse?

**Doctors and nurses often wear scrubs, which are pretty darn close to pajamas. **