Dress Like a Man

[Xantippe]

In my parish, there is a family that comes to Mass every week - parents and their three teenage daughters. Last summer, one of the daughters (she’s about 15/16) wore to Mass every week cut-off shorts as short as they can possibly be and a skin tight tank top.

Something ought to have been said to either her mother or her father in my opinion, but nothing ever was. And I can’t help but wonder where either her mother’s or her father’s head is at to let their daughter walk out of the house and attend Mass “dressed” like that.

Presumably the parents have a lot more on their hands with this particular girl, and they’ve decided not to fight this particular battle. They may be thrilled she’s going to church at all.

It isn’t uncommon for teens that age to flat-out refuse to go to Mass anymore.

 

[Draper]

Have you read the OP and all the threads? Because your question HAS been answered. If you disagree or have something new to contribute, please do. But I for one do not plan on reiterating everything we’ve already discussed.

Still not answered.

 

[Draper]

Modest clothing which is not too casual so as to be considered everyday dress can be quite simple.

You run off the rails right there. For some people a suit/tie is everyday dress. Othere never wear a suit and tie. But the bigger issue who cares if one dresses “casually” for Mass? So long as someone is dressed modestly, who cares? It’s those that care that have the problem.

We are commanded to keep the Sabbath Day holy. Doesn’t this imply that it’s not the same as the other days of the week? A contrite heart is a good and important thing at Mass, but it’s not the most important thing, because it insinuates, again, that the Mass is all about us. It isn’t. I’m thinking of the Last Four Ends of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. This is what I was taught, which is a more traditional view.

A suit/tie doesn’t make things more holy.

Regarding the monastic habit, well, the thread is about laypersons; men in particular, and how they need dress like men. Evidently, St. Benedict didn’t say much or anything about the clothing of laypersons at Mass. That’s okay.

Dressing like a man doesn’t equate to a suit and tie.

 

[Regina7]

Still not answered.

:banghead:

 

[Draper]

Yes, it is obvious. We have conventions in our society. We all know them or can know them if we chose to make an effort. The very words we use rely on convention to have any meaning. The lines might not always be bright but the rules do exist and are able to be a basic guide.

“Conventions in our society”, huh? Is that what drives you with regard to the Mass? Really? I think that’s really the whole problem with this thread. Trying to apply an out-dated secular standard (like a suit/tie) to the Mass.

FWIW, morning dress during a daytime Sunday Mass would be extremely appropriate – it’s not uncommon to see some men in Anglican parishes in large cities (especially in England) on Christmas and Easter wearing morning dress.

 

[CyrilSebastian]

I think there are certain things every man should have in their closet, a blue blazer being one of them.

This is exactly what my father was taught growing up as a young boy.

 

[Xantippe]

I may be duplicating some previous discussions (I was skimming rapidly), but here are some more thoughts:

1. I get the vibe that a lot of the posters that are strongly in favor of dress-up enjoy dressing up.
2. The fact that Catholics come as they are for daily Mass probably affects Catholics’ sense of appropriate dress for Sunday Mass.
3. Compared to Protestants from the dress-up denominations, Catholics prioritize showing up over showing up pretty. A lot of Protestant denominations do not have as strong a sense of Sunday obligation as Catholics do. (When I was a kid growing up in a fairly serious Protestant home, we practically never went to church when on the road, and if we did, it was only a church that we had some sort of relationship with through family or friends.)
4. Sunday best among Protestants can actually be oppressive.

thecommonroomblog.com/2012/03/wearing-your-best-to-church.html

I remember as a kid hearing that one of the older ladies at our Assemblies of God church had sniffed about, “those [my maiden name] girls–always wearing jeans like boys!” (In the Pacific NW in the 80s, most of us girls wore jeans to church.) I was not edified by hearing that from her. Our family had very, very little and we were wearing what we had. Had I been a more sensitive child or if I had encountered that attitude more often, it could have permanently soured me on church.

1. It’s somewhat disingenuous to talk about how you can just get “nice” clothes cheaply. The main burden of “nice” clothes is not the purchase price, but the care involved in keeping them nice, either ironing or dry cleaning. Ironing is very time-intensive. Dry cleaning is expensive. So, once we’ve brought home our “nice” clothes from the thrift store or cheap retail shop, the expenses and the headaches really have just begun. More casual clothes can just be run through the washer and dryer and they’re ready to go. (I’m personally a big fan of the revolution in wrinkle-free men’s dress shirts, but those are substantially more expensive than the ordinary kind.)
2. Also, as the blogger at the Common Room notes, just one “nice” outfit isn’t enough per person, unless you’re going to keep on wearing the same outfit over and over and over again 52 Sundays a year. A lot of us (not unnaturally) prefer to wear a variety of less expensive clothing, rather than a single nice outfit.

 

[Xantippe]

Here are some more personal thoughts:

1. I’m personally thrilled to find that we have managed to make it more or less on time to Mass. It’s even more thrilling to discover that my 7th grader changed from what she was wearing the night before into a fresh outfit for Sunday. Win!
2. Here’s a run-through for each member of the family:
   a. My husband wears to church exactly what he wears for everyday–a wrinkle-free dress shirt (probably an Oxford shirt in some Easter egg color) and khakis. If I’m lucky, it’s his good work khakis, not the yard and garage khakis that are generally trailing 2-3 inches of ragged cuff. Husband celebrated getting tenure some years ago by discontinuing the wearing of suit and tie, except when somebody has died. He wears ridiculously gorgeous academic robes (so much velvet!!!) for college graduations 2-3 times a year. I suppose that when our kids get married, he’ll probably wear a suit and tie then, too, but at this point, he goes years and years without wearing them. (I’m hoping his suit still actually fits in case somebody dies unexpectedly.) Usually, whenever he needs to wear a tie, he has to look up the instructions on the internet on how to tie it. We last bought him ties 14 years when he was job-hunting.
   b. For church during warmer weather, I wear my normal street clothes–either a knit top and knit pants, or a knit top and a swishy skirt with Birkenstocks (podiatrist’s advice) and very occasionally a machine-washable knit dress (mine are getting kind of faded). When I’m at home during the summer, I often wear shorts at home, but rarely do so outside, and never do so at church.
   c. Our 7th grader is mildly autistic and has some sensory issues. She tends to wear knit pants and a t-shirt (ideally a nice t-shirt!) to church. In the past, she’s worn some dresses to church, but our clothing budget hasn’t stretched to dresses for her lately. The t-shirts seem to multiply without any effort.
   d. Our 4th grader LOVES dressing up and hates t-shirts and shorts. His favorite outfit is a button down dress shirt and khakis (just like daddy!). He WANTS a tie and I suspect he probably also would love a jacket.
   e. The 2-year-old is very particular about clothes. She generally wears leggings and a t-shirt with animals (kitties, horses, etc). Occasionally, for a special enough occasion, I stuff her into a dress.
3. I would like some more dress-up clothes for me, my 7th grader and my 4th grader, but once the family clothing budget has covered warm winter clothing and shoes and underwear and socks for everybody, Landsend school uniforms (school has a ridiculously complex dress code), plus work clothes for daddy, there really honestly isn’t a lot left over (although, I confess that there’s generally a spare $5-10 for yet another adorable clothing item for the baby). I keep a list and as money comes in, I get the most crucial stuff, but it’s never enough. Plus, the 7th grader is growing REALLY fast, so it would be very challenging to keep her in Sunday best–it’s been quite challenging enough to keep her in uniforms. As for me, we started doing Dave Ramsey nearly 8 years ago, and one of the unexpected casualties of our financial austerity kick was my wardrobe–around 5 years in, I realized that I no longer owned any clothing with zippers and that my clothes were wearing out faster than I could replace them.

 

[triumphguy]

In my parish, there is a family that comes to Mass every week - parents and their three teenage daughters…!

Why not just leave it there, and thank God sincerely that they come?

Would we rather people stayed home in their unsuitable clothes?

Until God gives us mind control the only thing we can control is our own behaviours and attitudes.

 

[babochka]

Our society has become more casual and relaxed in general and fashions - men’s and women’s- have followed suit. Where I live, at least, it is rare to see a man in a suit, in the workplace or elsewhere. Really dressed up would be a button-down shirt and tie. My husband and boys generally wear khakis and polos, so derided in the article, to Mass. They are not bored and disengaged. (Well, maybe the boys are, but my husband is not.) E

Suits are a fashion trend, albeit a longstanding trend. I, for one, am glad they are no longer in fashion. It is ridiculous for men in my climate to be expected to wear a jacket and tie year-round, when 100-plus days are common. Frankly, I’m surprised that men put up with that expectation for so long. For those who believe that men should wear a suit to Mass, do you also believe that women should always wear pantyhose, heels and girdles to Mass in order to be dressed appropriately?

 

[exnihilo]

1. I get the vibe that a lot of the posters that are strongly in favor of dress-up enjoy dressing up.

I wouldn’t exactly say I enjoy dressing up. Sitting around the house I’ll wear an undershirt and cotton athletic shorts. That is comfortable to me. I do feel better about myself when I go out dressed up. If I went out wearing my lounging around clothes I’d not feel as good about myself. I’d feel lazy and sloppy.

It is ridiculous for men in my climate to be expected to wear a jacket and tie year-round, when 100-plus days are common. Frankly, I’m surprised that men put up with that expectation for so long.

Where I live it is hot and humid. I’m a big fan of AC, but I’ll wear a jacket. I can’t say I exactly like it.

There are lightweight wools and personally I find them more comfortable in the summer than khakis. Some polo shirts are thick and warm. My point is only that a nice pair of dress pants and shirt can actually be more comfortable in the summer.

The problem I have is not that the tie and jacket is disappearing but that we aren’t replacing it with a true new style of higher dress. We are tending to just dress down.

 

[Sarcelle]

I wouldn’t exactly say I enjoy dressing up. Sitting around the house I’ll wear an undershirt and cotton athletic shorts. That is comfortable to me. I do feel better about myself when I go out dressed up. If I went out wearing my lounging around clothes I’d not feel as good about myself. I’d feel lazy and sloppy.

Where I live it is hot and humid. I’m a big fan of AC, but I’ll wear a jacket. I can’t say I exactly like it.

There are lightweight wools and personally I find them more comfortable in the summer than khakis. Some polo shirts are thick and warm. My point is only that a nice pair of dress pants and shirt can actually be more comfortable in the summer.

The problem I have is not that the tie and jacket is disappearing but that we aren’t replacing it with a true new style of higher dress. We are tending to just dress down.

The suit and tie is hardly universal. In Hawaii, it the understated Aloha shirt which is used by a vast majority of white collar workers, along with dress pants and dress shoes. The ladies use muu-muus which are a lot more modest than the standard dress and just as feminine.

The key is to make the effort to dress your best at mass at the same time keep in mind that the standards of appropriate dress is dictated by culture we live in.

 

[Xantippe]

The suit and tie is hardly universal. In Hawaii, it the understated Aloha shirt which is used by a vast majority of white collar workers, along with dress pants and dress shoes. The ladies use muu-muus which are a lot more modest than the standard dress and just as feminine.

**Wow! I did not know that.

Growing up, I definitely remember that my dad’s go-to church outfit involved his “good” jeans (the work jeans were spectacular ripped and patched due to the demands of work in the woods) and his cowboy boots (his work shoes were either rubber boots for sloshing around in manure for the the farm or logging boots for the woods). If you knew him, there was an obvious distinction. The Protestant pastor wore a suit (and maybe a few older men that ushered) but as a kid, I always felt it that was a bit weird, because in our world, suits were almost only worn for weddings or funerals or graduations.

I’ve also heard that a lot of Mexican men wear cowboy boots and cowboy hats for formal occasions. I haven’t been able to find a good cite for that (although that reflects what I’ve seen after church many times in Texas), but I just stumbled upon this:

artofmanliness.com/2012/07/25/guayabera/**

Apparently, there’s a white Latin American shirt called the guayabera that is regarded as being a full equivalent to standard Western business atire (suit and tie). There’s a photo at the link showing President Obama in a suit surrounded by a sea of Latin American leaders in guayaberas (and untucked, too!).

The key is to make the effort to dress your best at mass at the same time keep in mind that the standards of appropriate dress is dictated by culture we live in.

 

[agnes_therese]

Would we rather people stayed home in their unsuitable clothes?

Sadly, it sounds as though some people would prefer that.

Here’s a thought – if it’s a problem in your parish, ask the pastor if he would put something in the bulletin about suggestions for appropriate Mass attire.

And then – concentrate on Holy Mass, and myob.

 

[Xantippe]

Another peculiarity of male dress is that in other times and places, a suit has been just normal daily dress for men, rather than dress up. I remember how shocked when I was living in Russia and seeing an older man doing some sort of heavy manual labor while wearing an old suit. But that was just his normal clothes.

Likewise, as I recall, the old 1930s Yorkshire farmers on All Creatures Great and Small all wear tweeds.

In that context, the difference is not between suit and casual, but between good suit and bad suit.

 

[Denise1957]

1. I get the vibe that a lot of the posters that are strongly in favor of dress-up enjoy dressing up.

I don’t enjoy the process, but I like that wearing a decent (not fancy) skirt and blouse makes it seem like Mass is very special.

 

[Denise1957]

1. Compared to Protestants from the dress-up denominations, Catholics prioritize showing up over showing up pretty. A lot of Protestant denominations do not have as strong a sense of Sunday obligation as Catholics do. (When I was a kid growing up in a fairly serious Protestant home, we practically never went to church when on the road, and if we did, it was only a church that we had some sort of relationship with through family or friends.)
2. Sunday best among Protestants can actually be oppressive.

thecommonroomblog.com/2012/03/wearing-your-best-to-church.html

I remember as a kid hearing that one of the older ladies at our Assemblies of God church had sniffed about, “those [my maiden name] girls–always wearing jeans like boys!” (In the Pacific NW in the 80s, most of us girls wore jeans to church.) I was not edified by hearing that from her. Our family had very, very little and we were wearing what we had. Had I been a more sensitive child or if I had encountered that attitude more often, it could have permanently soured me on church.

1. It’s somewhat disingenuous to talk about how you can just get “nice” clothes cheaply. The main burden of “nice” clothes is not the purchase price, but the care involved in keeping them nice, either ironing or dry cleaning. Ironing is very time-intensive. Dry cleaning is expensive. So, once we’ve brought home our “nice” clothes from the thrift store or cheap retail shop, the expenses and the headaches really have just begun. More casual clothes can just be run through the washer and dryer and they’re ready to go. (I’m personally a big fan of the revolution in wrinkle-free men’s dress shirts, but those are substantially more expensive than the ordinary kind.)
2. Also, as the blogger at the Common Room notes, just one “nice” outfit isn’t enough per person, unless you’re going to keep on wearing the same outfit over and over and over again 52 Sundays a year. A lot of us (not unnaturally) prefer to wear a variety of less expensive clothing, rather than a single nice outfit.

Regarding Catholics showing up over pretty, why should we just do the bare minimum (showing up)? Does God only require that we just show up?

I don’t recall when I attended Mormon Churches when growing up as having oppressive clothing standards. Women had to wear dresses back then (1960’s), but it wasn’t a big deal. I doubt that my grandma who was Assemblies of God for most of her life, worried too much about her Sunday church clothes.

As far as ironing clothes goes, if you hang them up after you get home from Mass, this should take care of the ironing problem. I know that it can be a lot of work to train children to hang up their clothes, but it’s a useful discipline to develop. I don’t wash my “church” clothes all that often. I have only about two or three choices of clothing for different seasons of the year, which suffices.

 

[Xantippe]

Regarding Catholics showing up over pretty, why should we just do the bare minimum (showing up)? Does God only require that we just show up?

**Why not tuxes and evening gowns, then?

Or why shouldn’t my husband swish in every Sunday in his spiffy academic robes with velvet and satin trimmings?
**

I don’t recall when I attended Mormon Churches when growing up as having oppressive clothing standards. Women had to wear dresses back then (1960’s), but it wasn’t a big deal. I doubt that my grandma who was Assemblies of God for most of her life, worried too much about her Sunday church clothes.
**
Oh, how my mom primped every Sunday morning! It drove my dad crazy–we’d all be sitting out in the car while my mom put on the last finishing touches on her makeup in the house–for 10+ minutes. She also had a vast wardrobe of Sunday clothes, many of which she never got around to wearing. And oh the agony of the curling iron on us girls!

I think my mom could have been just as holy with half the time spent on makeup and hair.

I don’t think there was a lot of sin in all that primping, but I think it had very, very little to do with God.
**

As far as ironing clothes goes, if you hang them up after you get home from Mass, this should take care of the ironing problem. I know that it can be a lot of work to train children to hang up their clothes, but it’s a useful discipline to develop. I don’t wash my “church” clothes all that often. I have only about two or three choices of clothing for different seasons of the year, which suffices.

I think here’s where we come to the crux of the problem. Your ideal Sunday is wearing fancy clothes that you wear just for church and then rush home to protect from the elements. That’s not my ideal Sunday–my ideal Sunday is taking the kids to the playground before Mass, going to Mass, and then going out to lunch and eating a delicious messy salad. We wear those same clothes for the rest of the day. And then I machine wash and dry them (perhaps quickly hanging up the dress shirts) and we are as good as new.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t wash my “church” clothes all that often. I have only about two or three choices of clothing for different seasons of the year, which suffices.

I get the feeling you have way more clothes than I do.

There’s nothing wrong with that, but it does affect the discussion.

Aside from boxed up maternity clothes, I have maybe three pairs of knit pants total, one pair of stretchy cords for winter, one swishy machine-washable dark blue skirt that matches everything, one special occasion velvet dress that I’ve actually never worn out of the house but bought in a fit of optimism, a couple of machine washable knit dresses that are getting pretty faded at this point, two pairs of knit shorts that are mostly for wearing under skirts and dresses, and a bunch of tops (mostly knit and a couple kind of sad) to go with the bottoms.

That’s it.

For me to have 2-3 just for church outfits would be ridiculous given that I barely have enough clothes for everyday. I don’t even own a pair of jeans right now, let alone an actual pair of pants or skirt with a zipper.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to monopolize the thread, but I thought I should mention that we aren’t poor, but that when you have a family, you have to choose between different good things.

Do I want 2-3 church outfits for everybody in the family (with new ones for the kids as they grow or have mishaps) or music lessons for my oldest?

Do I want those church outfits, or do I want to be able to send the kids to the camps and classes they want to go to?

Do I want the church outfits, or do I want my big kids to be able to see their great-grandparents while they are still living?

There are so many choices like that, not between good and bad things, but between different good things.