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Karin
Guest
OK…
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Richard, do you honestly think the teachers voted to pay a driver more than twice what they make?
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Philip_P
Guest
Let’s take a closer look at this claim.
I’m not sure what your source on this is, but a google search gave me an article from the NY Press:
nypress.com/17/3/news&columns/pagetwo.cfm
Now, I personally always think twice before citing something from blogs, small presses, and other alternative news sites (somehow people belive that since the MSM is not infallible, then the non-MSM must be far more dependable and credible, a very strange assumption to make). But, taking this claim on face value, let’s see if we can find out what it means.
I was not able to find a headcount for 2003 (if someone has one please provide a link), but here is one for 2005:
nycenet.edu/offices/stats/default.htm
I think it’s a safe assumption that headcount hasn’t change *that *dramatically in two years. So we find that for 2005, there were 92, 733 filled pedagogical positions, 24,620 non-pedagogical positions, 16,174 paraprofessionals, 1,311 additional FTE positions, and 315. The article doesn’t tell us what is included in the category of “teachers” who have been arrested, but let’s be conservative and count ONLY the pedagogical positions.
423 divided by 92,733 is 0.004561, or just under one half of one percent. Now that’s still too many (though I am glad to see that arrests were made - a sign the NYPD is doing its job), but one half of one percent hardly seems like a pandemic of criminal teachers or, by extension, basis for teacher-bashing.
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Karin
Guest
Reading
*(Spring 2004 exams, Grades 3,4,5,6,7,8 – State & City Exams)*Percent of Elementary and Middle School Students Meeting or Exceeding Standards on State and City Reading Exams:
**41.1%**Mathematics
*(Spring 2004 exams, Grades 3,4,5,6,7,8 – State & City Exams)*Percent of Elementary and Middle School Students Meeting or Exceeding Standards on State and City Math Exams:
46.7%
nycenet.edu/offices/stats/default.htm
Do the numbers above warrent teacher bashing…less than 1/2 of kids in the NYC school system(not counting charter schools) dont meet or pass the Reading & Math standards.
Also did you note that in the article you site (nypress.com/17/3/news&columns/pagetwo.cfm) the whole paragraph
In 2003, 423 teachers were arrested–more than one per day–along with 46 bus drivers and 174 teacher’s aides. In all, over 1,500 school employees were busted for crimes ranging from drug dealing to assault to rape. That’s 200 more arrests than in 2002. And those are just the actual arrests; it doesn’t take into account those teachers who made the news and lost their jobs after making some ill-advised offhanded remark, or those who simply haven’t been caught yet.
*(Spring 2004 exams, Grades 3,4,5,6,7,8 – State & City Exams)*Percent of Elementary and Middle School Students Meeting or Exceeding Standards on State and City Reading Exams:
**41.1%**Mathematics
*(Spring 2004 exams, Grades 3,4,5,6,7,8 – State & City Exams)*Percent of Elementary and Middle School Students Meeting or Exceeding Standards on State and City Math Exams:
46.7%
nycenet.edu/offices/stats/default.htm
Do the numbers above warrent teacher bashing…less than 1/2 of kids in the NYC school system(not counting charter schools) dont meet or pass the Reading & Math standards.
Also did you note that in the article you site (nypress.com/17/3/news&columns/pagetwo.cfm) the whole paragraph
In 2003, 423 teachers were arrested–more than one per day–along with 46 bus drivers and 174 teacher’s aides. In all, over 1,500 school employees were busted for crimes ranging from drug dealing to assault to rape. That’s 200 more arrests than in 2002. And those are just the actual arrests; it doesn’t take into account those teachers who made the news and lost their jobs after making some ill-advised offhanded remark, or those who simply haven’t been caught yet.
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Lizzie
Guest
The NY Press quoted Dept. of Education stats:174 teacher’s aides, 46 bus drivers and 423 teachers were arrested.
You may argue that is such a small percentage. I argue two things:
1.The NEA has no mechanism in place to purge perverts and drug dealers from their ranks. Other professions do.
2. The NEA provides these folks with lawyers and creates roadblocks to order to protect their jobs.
As a former member of NEA, I find it reprehensible that the NEA does not establish a decent code of ethics that enables perverts to be purged.
You may argue that is such a small percentage. I argue two things:
1.The NEA has no mechanism in place to purge perverts and drug dealers from their ranks. Other professions do.
2. The NEA provides these folks with lawyers and creates roadblocks to order to protect their jobs.
As a former member of NEA, I find it reprehensible that the NEA does not establish a decent code of ethics that enables perverts to be purged.
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Karin
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You go girl…!!! :clapping:
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Philip_P
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Karin said:
It’s a good argument for the urgent need to pay attention to education. By itself it says nothing about teachers, teachers unions, or why these numbers are so bad.
) the whole paragraph
In 2003, 423 teachers were arrested–more than one per day–along with 46 bus drivers and 174 teacher’s aides. In all, over 1,500 school employees were busted for crimes ranging from drug dealing to assault to rape. That’s 200 more arrests than in 2002. And those are just the actual arrests; it doesn’t take into account those teachers who made the news and lost their jobs after making some ill-advised offhanded remark, or those who simply haven’t been caught yet.
Any number greater than 365 is going to be more than one per day, statistically. This does not mean that there was literally an arrest a day. Nor does it actually say how many were arrested for what, which is important. If 420 of 423 were arrested for rape, that paints a very different picture than if 422 teachers were caught sharing a few bags of pot and 1 was arrested for rape. But we don’t know what it means, because the author doesn’t tell us. Nor does the author tell us if there’s a pattern. Were they all arrested from the same school, are they part of a drug ring, or have a few teachers at scattered schools across all five boroughs run into trouble with the law?
This article provides no context. It’s just a cheap statistical trick.
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Karin
Guest
Here are some more statistics from another state…it is not just a problem for NYC…
- *The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career. *
- *The number of K-12 public and private school students in 1996 who have been or will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff is nearly 7 million of 51,331,000. *
- *Between 1% and 5% of teachers sexually abuse or harass students. *
- *At least a quarter of all school districts in the United States have dealt with a case of staff sexual abuse in the past ten years. * * *Most cases of sexual abuse of students by teachers are never reported. *
Responses to Allegations of Sexual Abuse of Students by Staff
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Philip_P
Guest
Arresting perverts and drug dealers is not a mechanism for purging them from their ranks? And if a teacher is accused of wrongdoing he or she should automatically be assumed guilty and receive no legal assistance from his or her union? I’m all for public accountability, such as in civil review boards for police, but I would not begrudge a police officer a union-provided lawyer when facing charges of wrongdoing, nor do I believe teachers are not entitled to help from their unions.
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Karin
Guest
Just some more stats so we all see it is not just a problem that NYC has…ncasv.org/educator_sexual_abuse_statistics.htm
The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career.
The number of K-12 public and private school students in 1996 who have been or will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff is nearly 7 million of 51,331,000.
Between 1% and 5% of teachers sexually abuse or harass students.
At least a quarter of all school districts in the United States have dealt with a case of staff sexual abuse in the past ten years.
Most cases of sexual abuse of students by teachers are never reported.
Responses to Allegations of Sexual Abuse of Students by Staff
38.7% of the teachers resigned, left the district, or retired
17.5% were spoken to informally
15% were terminated or not re-hired
11.3% received a formal verbal or written reprimand
8.1% were suspended and then resumed teaching
7.5% were cases where the superintendent determined that the teacher hadn’t meant to sexually abuse
Of the nearly 54% of abusers who resigned, weren’t rehired, retired, or were terminated, superintendents reported that 16% were teaching in other schools and that they didn’t know what had happened to the other 84%. All but 1% of these teachers retained their teaching license.
The best estimate is that 15% of students will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff during their school career.
The number of K-12 public and private school students in 1996 who have been or will be sexually abused by a member of the school staff is nearly 7 million of 51,331,000.
Between 1% and 5% of teachers sexually abuse or harass students.
At least a quarter of all school districts in the United States have dealt with a case of staff sexual abuse in the past ten years.
Most cases of sexual abuse of students by teachers are never reported.
Responses to Allegations of Sexual Abuse of Students by Staff
38.7% of the teachers resigned, left the district, or retired
17.5% were spoken to informally
15% were terminated or not re-hired
11.3% received a formal verbal or written reprimand
8.1% were suspended and then resumed teaching
7.5% were cases where the superintendent determined that the teacher hadn’t meant to sexually abuse
Of the nearly 54% of abusers who resigned, weren’t rehired, retired, or were terminated, superintendents reported that 16% were teaching in other schools and that they didn’t know what had happened to the other 84%. All but 1% of these teachers retained their teaching license.
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Karin
Guest
Philip P:
It’s a good argument for the urgent need to pay attention to education. By itself it says nothing about teachers, teachers unions, or why these numbers are so bad.
I think the numbers speak volumes as to teachers…these numbers show that something or someone is not working! How else do you explain why so few kids can pass a basic reading and math test other than a teacher that can not teach?! Or is it automatically the parents fault?
It’s a good argument for the urgent need to pay attention to education. By itself it says nothing about teachers, teachers unions, or why these numbers are so bad.
I think the numbers speak volumes as to teachers…these numbers show that something or someone is not working! How else do you explain why so few kids can pass a basic reading and math test other than a teacher that can not teach?! Or is it automatically the parents fault?
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Lizzie
Guest
The NEA seems to think that higher pay for teachers will rid the teaching profession of predator teachers. What is wrong wiih this picture? Why can’t the NEA set up standards to cull their members of unethical perverts instead of hiring lawyers to defend tthem?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
The NEA is not about educating the children. The NEA is about getting more pay and benefits for its members – and as the subject of this thread shows, sometimes “members” means “the union power structure” and not classroom teachers.
Here in Arkansas, we have a 22% adult illiteracy rate, state wide. Some counties have rates over 40%. In addition, 58% of all Arkansans who go on to college must take remedial courses – in effect, they must finish high school AFTER they get to college.
Then NEA used to have a motto, “We teach the children.”
To which the proper response ought to be, “The hell you do!”
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Karin
Guest
vern humphrey:
So the big question then is why do out countries teachers support this farce??
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vern_humphrey
Guest
For two reasons.
First of all, unions in this country have a long history of tolerating corruption – look at Jimmy Hoffa. He was hardly more than a gangster, yet his union consistently supported him.
Secondly, many union members really do put their personal gain above the interests of the children.
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Karin
Guest
vern humphrey:
Perhaps they are in the wrong proffession then…they should not be teaching if kids education is not their concern!!!
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I have made some teachers very angry by saying that. I’ve listened to all the excuses (“the parents don’t care.” “We aren’t paid enough.”) and then said, “Do you cash your paycheck?”
In any profession, we should expect results, not excuses. If teachers have so many problems they can’t do the job, they should not expect to be paid.
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Karin
Guest
vern humphrey:
I have made some teachers very angry by saying that. Oh well that is life I guess I have joined the ranks of people that teachers are going to hate! I’ve listened to all the excuses (“the parents don’t care.” “We aren’t paid enough.”) and then said, “Do you cash your paycheck?”
In any profession, we should expect results, not excuses. If teachers have so many problems they can’t do the job, they should not expect to be paid.Oh I like that one…if you dont show results we are not paying you…I should bring that one up at the next school board meeting…
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Adonis33
Guest
I believe alll of the stats represent one state - please do not think all teachers nationwide are indicative of what has occurred in NY.
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Lizzie
Guest
I am not opposed to unions as such. The main problems we have with so many unions is that those who took control by pretending they represented common folk.
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