Drowning is rules?

[Neil_Anthony]

So, in other words, you have the right to believe that there are too many rules, and you may petition the Vatican to remove rules that you feel are too cumbersome. But, in the mean time, you can’t ignore the ones that are there, or support others in ignoring them.

Perhaps this is about spending too much time thinking about rules that don’t apply to us.

Should someone who isn’t a priest worry about whether there’s a rule saying the priest should stay in the sanctuary during his sermon? Should those of us who are just laypeople in the pews read the GIRM? Surely the priest will tell us if we’re doing something wrong by holding hands or using the el orans gesture. And if he doesn’t, is it our role to question him?

Worry about the rules that apply to you. If the pope hasn’t asked you to police the liturgy, then focus on your own personal holiness.

 

[dbacks5439]

Me 7 years ago…

I think my parents make too many rules for me. I can't stay out past 8? Come on, what's that about? I can't be on the phone for more than 15 minutes? Puh-leese. And what's this about being on the internet for no more than an hour a day? Mom, how can I have a life if you won't let me live!?

That actually hasn’t happened to me, but the point is the same. I am sure that when you were young, you had the same experience, where you think your parents made too many rules for you. That’s because they love you and worry about you. You may not have known at the time why you had a curfew, but now you know that in the evening, there’s a lot of “colorful” characters out there. They just want you to be safe. And yes, they care for the little things too. Why? Again, they love you and want the best for you.

Same with the Church. She loves you. She knows that when you break a small rule, no matter how small, damages your relationship with God. They may be minute, but, if over time, you break more and more rules, they become bigger and bigger problems. Same with sin. The more venial sins you commit will lead to bigger and biggers sins in the future, sometimes leading to mortal sin.

Parents who let their children do whatever they want when they’re young will more likely face times when their children will become rebellious and commit crimes against the state (stealing, breaking curfew, etc). Leaving this unchecked will cause the children to grow up and be behind bars, or do drugs, or become pregnant without a job and still in high school. Without the rules, there comes anarchy. The Church doesn’t want anarchy. So the rules, big and small and in any number, are set to make sure we mature and become holier. Without discipline, how can the athlete become a superstar? Without discipline, how can a person live the life of a saint? Every saint throughout time lived their lives in discipline, and even the smallest sin was abhored by them. Please remember, God is love, but He is also Just.

 

[mercygate]

Sometimes it seems to me that we focus so much on the rules of the Chruch that we fail to just live our faith. Does Jesus really care if we hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer? Am I allowed to go to this wedding, that party, this funeral? Cover my head, not cover my head. Am I allowed to watch an R rated movie? Is smoking a sin? The priest must not leave to sanctuary during the homily. There must only be music at the end of the Eucharistic prayer. Tattoos? Vacuuming on Sundays? It’s like we have to ask ourselves, “does the Church allow this?” before we can do anything.

Several years ago I was so frustrated with the “abuses” going on at my church that I could barely pay attention to the Mass. That is not what God wants. I understand many of the rules - no birth control, Mass attendance on Sundays, anything to do with the 10 commandments, following the exact litergy at Mass. I guess it’s the numerous, seemingly minor, rules I question.

All of the things on your “lists” are just manifestations of how we live out our love. I would never have pegged you as a rule-bound Catholic. Your heart is so generous, and your motives are always good. Just live the life and relax!

Luther took it to extremes when he said “Love God and sin boldly” (if, in fact, he actually said that) but a person, such as yourself, who is well disposed should not get her knickers in knots over the small stuff. You’re doin’ real good, Girl!

 

[Orionthehunter]

I once heard a Priest say are we going to have “norms” or not? If we are, who is going to make the norms? Then, if multiple people can make the norms, they cease to be norms.

The point is that we are a liturgical Church. Without norms, it becomes a free-for-all. And if it is a free-for-all, we cease to be a liturgical church.

The liturgical norms are necessary so that regardless of where I worship, the Mass is the same. It isn’t owned by individual parishes or Priests. It is owned by the Church.

See these rules as necessary for us to be universal and not an impingement on the creativity of individual worshippers or parishes.

 

[MooCowSteph]

OK, no offense to anybody here, but this how I have seen this thread thus far:

A. We have too many rules.
B. You have to follow the rules.
A. Yeah, I know that’s why I’m saying there are too many of them.
B. Breaking the rules is wrong.
A. I know, but we can change the rules.
B. You have follow the rules.
A. I know, but can we talk about whether there are too many rules?

And so on.

So. I think there are too many rules. I learn new ones everytime I visit this forum. Why do we have to have a rule for every jot and tittle of the Mass? Do we really think God cares about all these little things?

I think you have that right, except no one as far I am aware is advocating breaking the rules. I certainly do my best to follow rules, and while I am a sinner, I do not willingly, knowingly break the rules. What I am saying here is YES, there are a great number of rules. What TMC said was right - I am not here to say we should change or break the rules, but start a dialoge about WHY there are SO many rules, many seemingly small.

For example, I’ll bring up again a rule I mentioned earlier - no flowers around the alter. Why? Can someone explain how God’s will is being violated when we place some beautiful, blooming mums around the alter in the fall?

I understand these rules were put in place for a reason, but you know what, the liturgical rules very by country. We have rules and don’t have rules here in the US that exist/don’t exist in other countries. Is God’s will different in a German Mass than in a Mass in Mississippi? If they are so important, why not make them the same? And I’m not talking about major things like who can give a homily, receive communion, or the prayers that are prayed. I am talking about things like who purifies the vessles, how many EMHC you have, flowers near the alter/no flowers, children’s Mass where kids leave or go sit near the sanctuary, praying the Lord’s Prayer with hands raised or folded…

 

[mercygate]

Why do we have to have a rule for every jot and tittle of the Mass? Do we really think God cares about all these little things?

 

[anamchara]

No, I only referred to those who attempt such action with an understanding of what the Vatican has mandated on the subject.

I said nothing at all about what motivates

 

[palmas85]

perhaps i shall agree with you. fine.
we are all on a level playing field. there is no difference in intelligence, the suicide bombers who killed 51 people in Pakistan a few hours ago are just as intelligent as the Pope. Everyone is equal. all people are exactly the same. no one is smarter than anyone else.

no. doesn’t pass the laugh test.

I’m really not stating anything but the obvious. there are some opinions that aren’t as intelligent as others. what is uncharitable about that? some opinions by posters are plain wrong.

But of course yours are correct:thumbsup:

 

[MooCowSteph]

And I **am **saying that staying in the Sanctuary is too burdensome, not because its hard, but because if that priest or bishop thinks he is more effective coming down to the laity, I think he should have that option. And I think that having so many rules, and people in such a tizzy over them, that people are more worried about how they are holding their hands, or whether the guitar is an abomination, or if its a sin to say “good morning” instead of “peace be with you”, that they aren’t focusing on what is going on in the Mass.

I hear sometimes that we need all these rules to focus people on the mysteries before them, but I think they have the opposite effect. But I keep following them, and never suggested that I didn’t have to do so.

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across, but you said it better than I. I follow the rules, and will continue to follow the rules. There is no rule that I am aware of, however, that says we can’t question and wonder about the rules all the while following them.

Many of the rules I’ve brought up are not even ones I would or wouldn’t follow, as they are liturgical issues. I cannot disobey something someone else has been told to do. Neil_Anthony made a great point when he said perhaps we should be primarily concerned with following the rules ourselves, and let other people concern themselves with the rules are are obligated to obey.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Perhaps this is about spending too much time thinking about rules that don’t apply to us.

Should someone who isn’t a priest worry about whether there’s a rule saying the priest should stay in the sanctuary during his sermon? Should those of us who are just laypeople in the pews read the GIRM? Surely the priest will tell us if we’re doing something wrong by holding hands or using the el orans gesture. And if he doesn’t, is it our role to question him?

Worry about the rules that apply to you. If the pope hasn’t asked you to police the liturgy, then focus on your own personal holiness.

I think this is an excellent post.

And again, to those who are addressing “rule-breakers”, no one here, myself included, is advocating breaking rules.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

See, now THAT makes sense. And I think the church is helpful in helping us determine that. Too many Catholics and people in genereal do not consider the will of God when making decisions in their lives. But I think the mindset has gone too far when people are worried about whether it’s ok to attend a protestant wedding (why would God want us to miss a friend’s or family member’s wedding because they are not Catholic?) or get a little tattoo remembering a lost child, for example. I fail to see how these issues can go against the will of God. Am I making any sense here? Maybe I’m rambling

Yes, I understand what you mean (though, I don’t know if I 100% agree on all points). I would add that it would probably be prudent in cases of extreme emotion - like the case of a lost child - to tread softly and get an outside opinion (like a good and close Priest). It is too easy for us to get caught up in our emotions and be blinded to absolutely everything else around us (which is why a second opinion is prudent).

But as for rambling - hey don’t worry about.

Ramblers - love the car, love the person!

 

[anamchara]

I think this is an excellent post.

And again, to those who are addressing “rule-breakers”, no one here, myself included, is advocating breaking rules.

I agree. Neils post made sense.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Sometimes it seems to me that we focus so much on the rules of the Chruch that we fail to just live our faith. Does Jesus really care if we hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer? Am I allowed to go to this wedding, that party, this funeral? Cover my head, not cover my head. Am I allowed to watch an R rated movie? Is smoking a sin? The priest must not leave to sanctuary during the homily. There must only be music at the end of the Eucharistic prayer. Tattoos? Vacuuming on Sundays? It’s like we have to ask ourselves, “does the Church allow this?” before we can do anything.

Several years ago I was so frustrated with the “abuses” going on at my church that I could barely pay attention to the Mass. That is not what God wants. I understand many of the rules - no birth control, Mass attendance on Sundays, anything to do with the 10 commandments, following the exact litergy at Mass. I guess it’s the numerous, seemingly minor, rules I question.

Yes, it does seem that way at times, to the detriment of everyone. Sadly, this seems to be the quickest way to Rome for many Bishops who push and encourage this style of Catholicism. The vast majority of Catholics do not follow or care about every single rubric. They come for spiritual nourishment to get by day to day in their lives. That does not come from weekly lectures on rules, that actually diminishes spirituality in most people. In the end, parishes are communities of people above all things and go beyond the mass services.

 

[Brendan]

 

[Brendan]

And I **am **saying that staying in the Sanctuary is too burdensome, not because its hard, but because if that priest or bishop thinks he is more effective coming down to the laity, I think he should have that option.

The current instructions were developed in Rome over the course of 5 years, a product of men and women with advanced degrees in Liturgical Theology, and then approved by Pope John Paul. In then went to the US Bishops, who debated ammendments for 2 years, and finally approved it. Rome then approved several of their ammendments.

The ability to leave the Sactuary was not put in by Rome, or even requested by the US bishops.

Are we now going to say that a priest’s personal preference should trump the combined Liturgical Theological expertise of hundreds in Rome, plus all the US bishops?

The same is true for all the liturgical regulations we have. They are the product of years of work by top notch people in their field. If there was anything unnecessary in there, it would have been removed or modified in the process.

 

[Brendan]

Should someone who isn’t a priest worry about whether there’s a rule saying the priest should stay in the sanctuary during his sermon? Should those of us who are just laypeople in the pews read the GIRM? Surely the priest will tell us if we’re doing something wrong by holding hands or using the el orans gesture. And if he doesn’t, is it our role to question him?

Worry about the rules that apply to you. If the pope hasn’t asked you to police the liturgy, then focus on your own personal holiness.

The Church is a Community, the Body of Christ, one is not fully seperate from another.

For example, would it be a Christian thing to see a person suffering from alcoholism and think " The Church condems drunkness as a sin, so I won’t get drunk, but I’m not going to care about this person’s drunkeness"

Being a Christian doesn’t work that way. Read up on the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

It is an act of Mercy towards someone to instruct them in the Church’s teaching if they are unaware of it.

It is an act of Mercy towards someone to correct those who are aware of Church regulations, but flaunt or disregard them.

Being a Christian is showing Mercy to others, both the Temporal and Spiritual Works.

Is it your place to instruct a priest in the requirements of the Liturgy set for by Rome. Yes, as a Spiritual Work of Mercy, in fact, no less than if we saw a priest hungry and fed him as a Temportal Work of Mercy.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil_Anthony

Should someone who isn’t a priest worry about whether there’s a rule saying the priest should stay in the sanctuary during his sermon? Should those of us who are just laypeople in the pews read the GIRM? Surely the priest will tell us if we’re doing something wrong by holding hands or using the el orans gesture. And if he doesn’t, is it our role to question him?

Worry about the rules that apply to you. If the pope hasn’t asked you to police the liturgy, then focus on your own personal holiness.

The Church is a Community, the Body of Christ, one is not fully seperate from another.

For example, would it be a Christian thing to see a person suffering from alcoholism and think " The Church condems drunkness as a sin, so I won’t get drunk, but I’m not going to care about this person’s drunkeness"

Being a Christian doesn’t work that way. Read up on the Spiritual Works of Mercy.

It is an act of Mercy towards someone to instruct them in the Church’s teaching if they are unaware of it.

It is an act of Mercy towards someone to correct those who are aware of Church regulations, but flaunt or disregard them.

Being a Christian is showing Mercy to others, both the Temporal and Spiritual Works.

Is it your place to instruct a priest in the requirements of the Liturgy set for by Rome. Yes, as a Spiritual Work of Mercy, in fact, no less than if we saw a priest hungry and fed him as a Temportal Work of Mercy.

---

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think this is an excellent post.

And again, to those who are addressing “rule-breakers”, no one here, myself included, is advocating breaking rules.

Thank you very much MooCowSteph

Of course most of us can see the difference between giving advice to someone who really needs it, like an alcoholic friend who needs help, and lecturing the priest for putting flowers on the altar! One of them is about doing a work of mercy, while the other might very well be pride…

 

[Walking_Home]

Thank you very much MooCowSteph

Of course most of us can see the difference between giving advice to someone who really needs it, like an alcoholic friend who needs help, and lecturing the priest for putting flowers on the altar! One of them is about doing a work of mercy, while the other might very well be pride…

---

What you call pride—in truth is true charity. For true charity calls for fraternal correction.

 

[thechrismyster]

But of course yours are correct:thumbsup:

never once have i named names.

saying i’m wrong is like disagreeing with me that some days are warmer than others. some nights are colder than others.

I’m simply saying that when compared, some posters are not as intelligent as others.

does that concept scare you?